EU Referendum - In/Out?

[Mr-Paul]

So N-Europe. Well, the British people of N-Europe.

 

How are you planning on voting next week? Interested to see what the view on here is.

 

I've already made up my mind and sent off my postal vote. I'm in.

[Hero-of-Time]

Out. My vote was posted last week.

[Ashley]

I did a check yesterday and 10% of people I know on Facebook are from the EU. In terms of people I actually communicate with frequently I'd put it at the 30%+ mark. It's kind of weird to think if we weren't part of the EU a lot of people I know and care about I'd have never met (it's obviously true of all kinds of "what if" scenarios).

 

It's not a perfect system (what political system is?) and I'm down for reforming it but I genuinely believe the benefits outweigh the negatives and a lot of perceived negatives aren't just down to the EU (e.g. housing, yes more demand is going to have an impact but so are the policies this and previous governments have put in to place and I don't think leaving the EU is suddenly going to make things better).

[bob]

Ho boy. A politics thread? Good luck! In.

[Blade]

Out!!

 

For me its nothing about immigrants at all.

 

I'm shamelessly going to copy @Zechs Merquise post that he did in an earlier thread as I completely agree with it:

 

"To even start seriously discussing this question, it would be best to start at the actual point the UK entered the EU and the initial referendum Britain had in 1975 to remain a remember of what was then called the European Community.

 

The way the whole issue of European cooperation was sold was on the strength of the free trade and the ability to move goods and services around member states without the need for concern over trade barriers, embargoes or tariffs that may inhibit trade. The whole drive of this 'community' was based on facilitating trade and cooperation for business.

 

That is a far cry from what the EU is today.

 

What was meant to be a trading block has become a hugely invasive and costly extra level of governance which has simply grown and grown in size, the scope of its power and financial cost to its member states. The EU law literally supersedes the law of member states and imposes rules upon member states in a manner reminiscent of Communist Block, whilst at the same time maintaining it is democracy through the European Parliament. A parliament which is simply an over staffed, costly talking shop that is riddled with bureaucracy and shockingly has no real power as every important decision is actually made by a group of unelected bureaucrats who literally hold all the power but are completely unaccountable.

 

If you look at the way the European Union has morphed from being what was essentially a simple way for neighbouring countries to easily do business (which is obviously a great idea) into a super state run by unelected bureaucrats who now set laws on everything and impose their will on sovereign states it is quite frightening. Trade and cooperation are common sense and will benefit everyone. A super state imposing laws upon sovereign states benefits no one.

 

But it goes far beyond just setting laws - states are now being forced to bail out other states who's economies are failing. There is a massive problem with border control as once people have entered the EU the freedom of movement they are afforded means millions have entered illegally and now unaccounted for. There is now a push for a European Army (why is that even needed?) which will cost countless billions. I could list far more reasons why the EU is bad for member states but I'm sure most people will read them before the referendum.

 

The road down which the EU has progressed has led to a situation that can't simply be 'reformed'. It is now too big, involves too many jobs (most of which are utterly pointless too) and has too much power. The only way to deal with a problem like this is to back out of it and negotiate our own favourable trade agreements but leave the baggage behind"

 

 

The IN campaign has made it about immigration too! Constantly slandering the OUT campaign as being narrow minded and bigoted. I'm a member of the Labour Party and a former membe of the UAF and believe me my reasons for wanting out is nothing to do with immigration. It's about getting ourselves out of a undemocratic, unaccountable overbearing capitalist organisation that offers very little for the common man.

[Cube]

In. I trust the EU government far more than the UK government. On top of that, if we left we'll either be much poorer off or we'll end up having the same border agreements with the EU in exchange for good trade deals - so we'd be in the same situation, but have zero say in the matters.

 

Not to mention that in regards to immigration (which is a minor issue in this, despite the Leave campaign pretending like it's the main thing), we have a load of non-EU immigration, so if we can't lower that first, then I imagine it will take too long to "sort out" EU immigration.

 

And with regards to potential countries joining the EU (like Turkey): That won't happen for a very long time, we have a say in it happening and we can always leave then if we don't like it. Leaving has the risk of us having no say and having to agree to open borders with Turkey anyway.

 

I've yet to hear a single reason to leave the EU.

[Mr-Paul]

Anyone who is voting out, I'd really like to hear your reasons. Because I haven't seen one single reason that would make me think leaving would be the right decision. All the things about sovereignty are a smokescreen, and I don't see immigration in itself as a problem - it's how our country/government deals with the effects of immigration that is the problem.

[gaggle64]

In! Leaving won't solve any of the problems we have and the economic & social futures of myself and many people I know & love are dependent on free movement and easy access to the European business & jobs market. Potentially "leaving" could mean withdrawing our EU representation but still being subject to the ECC, which doesn't make sense for anyone. Boris & Farage have both been so hideously two-faced I'm amazed they haven't been laughed off stage at every turn. Frankly the whole Leave campaign reminds me of The Simpsons episode where they blame immigrants for the "Bear Patrol" tax.

 

Edited June 14, 2016 by gaggle64

[killthenet]

And Moe Syzlak looks eerily similar to Nigel Farage.

[dazzybee]

In. No question. There are pros and cons for both and I'm hating the slander and the desperate, insulting tactics from both sides to prove their opinion is better; but I don't think it's close to what kind of world I feel better in.

 

Even regarding Blades points, all reasonable, but FREE TRADE AND MOVEMENT is a big aspect of the EU and it's staggering;y naive to think we'd have the same trade deals as we do now, we simply won't. Why would we be given the best benefit but have to pay nothing into the system? Surely even the most hardcore OUT-er must see that?

 

As for superstate and lack of democracy, this is obviously a terrible idea, and the grossest aspect of it all, reform is needed, but it's not quite as simple as that either, they are elected by their people we and the people of Europe elect, so it's one removed, don't we want our elected officials to elect them? Not saying it's ideal but the way people talk about it is so misleading. Also, people don't like the idea of these faceless people imposing our laws, but do people actually object to the laws themselves? I mean what actually is wrong with them? How much disgust is there to these laws or is it use "principal"?

 

And for bailing out other countries... Again, a tricky proposition. But it's all proportionate, it's not like we don't get back the value in our membership fee, but aside from that. What is wrong with helping poor countries out? In the same way I want to look after the poor people in my country, I don't see a problem with helping out the poorest in Europe. Aside from just wanting as many people to lead the healthiest and best lives possible and if we can help we should, if you want to be all selfish about it, the stronger, healthier these countries are, the less they'll want to move to another country to work and get money. Keeping them down on their ground is only going to make their people more desperate to leave. (I feel the same about people reluctance to help the poor and desperate in this country, even if you hate them, them being healthier and less desperate means less crime and less imposing on the state/community)

 

As for reform, of course it's possible. If we stay in. We come out, we've lost that chance for good. And in this connected world we are isolating ourselves; will US and China be as eager to give as good a deal to us with a smaller econmy, than the bumper deals they'll be willing to give the EU?

 

I guess ultimately this last point is that I genuinely think we need to come together more and more. We;be moved from our caves, tribes, villages, towns, cities and nations. The bigger and more communal we are, the safer and better the world is. That's what I want to live in. Not us and them!

[Shorty]

I'm shamelessly going to copy @Zechs Merquise post that he did in an earlier thread as I completely agree with it:

This is a long list of things to dislike about the EU, but absolutely zero evidence that things will be better once out....

[gaggle64]

And Moe Syzlak looks eerily similar to Nigel Farage.

 

Christ I didn't even think of that. I've been too hung up on the Boris/Quimby comparison.

 

[Cube]

Even regarding Blades points, all reasonable, but FREE TRADE AND MOVEMENT is a big aspect of the EU and it's staggering;y naive to think we'd have the same trade deals as we do now, we simply won't.

 

And it isn't just trade deals with the EU, we'd have to negotiate other trade deals, too. The EU has a great trade deal with China, we'd have to sort out our own which I doubt will be as good.

[Mr-Paul]

If you look at the way the European Union has morphed from being what was essentially a simple way for neighbouring countries to easily do business (which is obviously a great idea) into a super state run by unelected bureaucrats who now set laws on everything and impose their will on sovereign states it is quite frightening. Trade and cooperation are common sense and will benefit everyone. A super state imposing laws upon sovereign states benefits no one.

 

This is one of my biggest annoyances about the Leave campaign. We aren't being ruled by unelected bureaucrats. Elected heads of state, ministers, etc. co-operate on policy direction and decide what they want the EU to do. This is the EU Council.

 

Then you have the so-called bureaucrats, who write the laws, bills and policies. They're effectively the same as the civil service in the MoD, Department of Justice, etc. So it works the same way as it does over here.

 

It then goes to be voted for by the European Parliament. The same as legislation going to a vote in the House of Commons. Except it's actually more democratic because it's elected by proportional representation rather than our crappy FPTP system.

 

But it goes far beyond just setting laws - states are now being forced to bail out other states who's economies are failing. There is a massive problem with border control as once people have entered the EU the freedom of movement they are afforded means millions have entered illegally and now unaccounted for.

 

1. We're not in the Euro, so non-applicable to our situation, and 2. Great Britain already has control of it's own borders, we're not in the Schengen zone, hence the camp of refugees at Calais.

 

There is now a push for a European Army (why is that even needed?) which will cost countless billions. I could list far more reasons why the EU is bad for member states but I'm sure most people will read them before the referendum.

 

There isn't widespread desire for a European army, only a few people have expressed interest in some sort of shared defence. And in matters of defence, the decisions are made purely by heads of state - David Cameron would have to approve for this to actually happen, as due to our size, we effectively have a veto on the matter.

 

The road down which the EU has progressed has led to a situation that can't simply be 'reformed'. It is now too big, involves too many jobs (most of which are utterly pointless too) and has too much power. The only way to deal with a problem like this is to back out of it and negotiate our own favourable trade agreements but leave the baggage behind

 

So much of this is hyperbole, and there is no way we're getting a favourable deal when we leave. If we want free trade with Europe, we'll have to pay in as much as we do now - Norway and Switzerland pay similar amounts, have to still keep to the EU regulations, but have no say in influencing them.

 

The IN campaign has made it about immigration too! Constantly slandering the OUT campaign as being narrow minded and bigoted. I'm a member of the Labour Party and a former membe of the UAF and believe me my reasons for wanting out is nothing to do with immigration. It's about getting ourselves out of a undemocratic, unaccountable overbearing capitalist organisation that offers very little for the common man.

 

It's not a surprise when you have the Leave capaigns saying there will be 70 million turks coming over to take our jobs, and keep highlighting that Turkey is right next to Syria and Iraq. There's no way Turkey are joining the EU any time soon. While immigration isn't a problem to you, the rhetoric coming out of the leave campaigns is disgusting.

 

You say it offers little to the common man, but if we left, say goodbye to so many workers' rights, easy travel abroad, things like mobile roaming fees being abolished and probably countless other small things that benefit our everyday lives.

 

I guess ultimately this last point is that I genuinely think we need to come together more and more. We've moved from our caves, tribes, villages, towns, cities and nations. The bigger and more communal we are, the safer and better the world is. That's what I want to live in. Not us and them.

 

This is absolutely such an important reason for me. Come together for the greater good.

[Ashley]

The EU law literally supersedes the law of member states and imposes rules upon member states in a manner reminiscent of Communist Block, whilst at the same time maintaining it is democracy through the European Parliament. A parliament which is simply an over staffed, costly talking shop that is riddled with bureaucracy and shockingly has no real power as every important decision is actually made by a group of unelected bureaucrats who literally hold all the power but are completely unaccountable.

 

Part of the agreement with being in EU is that they will set some of the law. Not in a "you will do as we say!" kind of way (obviously that can happen), but rather outsourcing. The EU will handle legalisation that will affect all member states so rather than each member state try and introduce their own and get them to mesh, it comes centrally and works down.

 

A lot of the decisions aren't law as much as they are administrative:

 

"It is only possible to reach a figure anywhere approaching 60% by entirely ignoring the fundamental distinction between EU legislation and EU administration, thereby massively exaggerating the statistics for the amount of EU law, by including vast numbers of detailed, technical measures that would never be counted as law if they were adopted within the UK legal system"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105

 

It's also worth remembering what areas the EU has the most say over. Agriculture, fishing, trade and environment they all have a fair bit of say over, but then the farmer's union is in favour of remain. The Fishing industry is obviously one we hear a lot about, particularly from Farage (who is able to attend the EU meetings and help shape the policy but has only done so for one out of 42 meetings so does he really have their best interest at heart?), and I'm not going to pretend I know a lot about it. I found this discussion interesting and you may disagree with it, but it looks at the impact EU-led policy has had on the British fishing industry.

 

And I'm sure I could find plenty to argue this case better than I can but I'm just going to say this - the current government has dragged its feet over air pollution, over their commitments to the Paris agreements and have reversed green energy policies. In this particular instance I'm happy that someone else is there to try and kick them into shape (I'd admit they're not doing it as much as I'd like, but if the Tories were left to the environment it would be worse than it currently is).

 

Other aspects of law, such as welfare and social security,education, criminal law, family law and the NHS, the EU has less say over and we have more independence. It becomes a question of how much in each case obviously, but which aspects currently controlled more by EU would you like to see handled by the UK?

 

And in regards to the "unelected bureaucrats" point:

 

Its president is nominated by the national leaders and then elected by the European Parliament by majority vote. Based on member states' suggestions, the Commission's president selects 27 other members of the Commission for a five-year period, each with a specific policy portfolio.

 

The European Parliament must approve the Commission as a whole but does not vote on individual commissioners. More importantly, any new legislation proposed by the Commission still has to be agreed by the member states and passed by the European Parliament, which is directly elected by EU voters. The statement of unelected bureaucrats making decisions in the EU is therefore somewhat misleading.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105

 

You do elect people and they go on and make decisions (and elections) on your behalf. In ways its not too dissimilar to our parliament. You vote for a party, but not the leader (you may vote for the party and the leader, or for the leader rather than the party, but you had no vote in them being in that position). The government then decides roles and responsibilities. You don't vote for positions like Education Minister etc (that would obviously be a time-consuming and logistical nightmare to vote for all of those). Yes, people elected that person in office but not for that role. It's how we end up with an equality minister that voted against gay marriage. How we ended up with an Education Minister that antagonised teachers for years. And Jeremy Fucking Hunt. And that's ignoring the civil servants that are unelected and judges who are likewise. They play a role in legalisation but they're not elected.

 

We don't have a say in everything that goes on in the EU, but we do have the option to vote for those that represent us.

 

There is now a push for a European Army (why is that even needed?) which will cost countless billions.

 

I feel this is kind of a moot point. Yes, some people are discussing it but it seems that it wouldn't have the necessary support from member states to go through.

 

The only way to deal with a problem like this is to back out of it and negotiate our own favourable trade agreements but leave the baggage behind"

 

Personally I just don't get this "cut and run" approach. Each their own and I can't argue against it (as its just preferred method) but I personally don't think we'll leave EU, set up trade agreements and everything will be fine. For one there's been suggestions that we'll still try to set up agreements with EU but looking at other countries that do similar they still have to do some things people dislike (free movement, pay in etc) while having less/no say about what happens. I can't see how that would benefit us. We'd have less power to make changes than we currently do.

 

For all this talk of EU being this powerhouse that just imposes things and we have to lie back and think of England look at something like the tampon tax. We (rightly) said it's not on and it was agreed we'd get out of it. It's obviously a very small issue, but it is indicative it isn't as dictatorial that some people would have you believe. There is room for discussion.

 

Just my two cents anyway.

 

One argument from leave I've heard but not seen any details is "we aren't British enough" (or something along those lines). What Britishness is being squashed by the EU? Yeah political sovereignty (as discussed above) is an aspect but aside from that? It's one of those things; yeah I'm British but I also consider myself European. And a citizen of the world. I've personally never felt that the EU has squished my personal identity.

 

I think Mr-Paul explained it better than I did...and to pick up on a point Mr-Paul made about the rhetoric from the leave campaign: Leave.EU tried to turn the Orlando tragedy into a political point. Thankfully even their own supports said how abhorrent that was but it shows they're not above saying anything if they think it will help.

 

Oh and one further thing - Boris Johnson suddenly cares about housing when he helped oversee a lot of London's property going to (mostly non-EU) foreign investors? That's one hell of a change of face in a few weeks! And let's not get started on the leave campaigns front runners saying the money we spend on EU could go to the NHS. For one opponents of AV said the same thing, never happened. For another they have no control over how we would spend that theoretical money (given the hard-austerity drive the government has any money like that I imagine would be classed as a saving). For another they never fucking spoke up during the whole Junior Doctor's issue and now they're concerned? What a coincidence... And finally, the NHS itself has said we'll be worse off out the EU and I'm more inclined to believe them then people who probably haven't used the NHS for years.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Ashley

[Blade]

This is one of my biggest annoyances about the Leave campaign. We aren't being ruled by unelected bureaucrats. Elected heads of state, ministers, etc. co-operate on policy direction and decide what they want the EU to do. This is the EU Council.

 

Then you have the so-called bureaucrats, who write the laws, bills and policies. They're effectively the same as the civil service in the MoD, Department of Justice, etc. So it works the same way as it does over here.

 

It then goes to be voted for by the European Parliament. The same as legislation going to a vote in the House of Commons. Except it's actually more democratic because it's elected by proportional representation rather than our crappy FPTP system.

 

 

 

1. We're not in the Euro, so non-applicable to our situation, and 2. Great Britain already has control of it's own borders, we're not in the Schengen zone, hence the camp of refugees at Calais.

 

 

 

There isn't widespread desire for a European army, only a few people have expressed interest in some sort of shared defence. And in matters of defence, the decisions are made purely by heads of state - David Cameron would have to approve for this to actually happen, as due to our size, we effectively have a veto on the matter.

 

 

 

So much of this is hyperbole, and there is no way we're getting a favourable deal when we leave. If we want free trade with Europe, we'll have to pay in as much as we do now - Norway and Switzerland pay similar amounts, have to still keep to the EU regulations, but have no say in influencing them.

 

 

 

It's not a surprise when you have the Leave capaigns saying there will be 70 million turks coming over to take our jobs, and keep highlighting that Turkey is right next to Syria and Iraq. There's no way Turkey are joining the EU any time soon. While immigration isn't a problem to you, the rhetoric coming out of the leave campaigns is disgusting.

 

You say it offers little to the common man, but if we left, say goodbye to so many workers' rights, easy travel abroad, things like mobile roaming fees being abolished and probably countless other small things that benefit our everyday lives.

 

The EU is undemocratic and unaccountable. I don't remember having a choice of who is on the EU council of the other 27 member states.

 

The EU Commission does not work similarly to Whitehall. The EU Commission actually directs what member states should do and when they don't like it they try and take them to court.

 

The EU Parliament although has gotten better is still a talking shop. Again its nothing like Westminster. The UK parliament is sovereign. We have a parliamentary democracy. The EU is nothing like that.

 

No we are not in the euro. Thank goodness for that! Imagine if we listened to the arguments to join that currency. Also, didn't we contribute to Ireland (a eurozone country) bailout?

 

The UK doesn't have control of its own borders. We have freedom of movement. Its a central part of the EU project. As I said immigration is not an issue for me. The strains on the UK that immigration causes can be easily resolved by spending on public services and infrastructure. Not necessarily closing the borders.

 

The stuff coming out of the in campaign is ridiculous. Apparently the latest is if we leave the EU it will be the end of "western civilisation". Oh okay.

 

In respect of workers rights could a democratically elected Labour government not do those things (and more)? Its a very sad day for democratic socialism in this country if it has lost all ambition to radically change this country for the better and instead relies on an undemocratic and yes fundamentally capitalist organisation to provide a very meagre protection of workers rights.

[gaggle64]

One further point I'd like to add: If Leave wins count on Scotland having a 2nd Independence referendum and count on it being more likely for the Independence side to win.

[Ashley]

The EU is undemocratic and unaccountable. I don't remember having a choice of who is on the EU council of the other 27 member states.

 

Just a quick point as I have lunch waiting - but how is this any different from not being able to elect an MP in a different constituency from the one you live in?

[Blade]

Just a quick point as I have lunch waiting - but how is this any different from not being able to elect an MP in a different constituency from the one you live in?

 

The British people (as a group) elect their MPs, the British people have no say over the the composition of the EU Council and neither does any other member state.

 

Look there are clear positives for remaining within the EU. Many of which have been argued very well above. If we vote in, i'm not actually too bothered. I was more bothered that last year the country voted for 5 more years of the Tories!

 

For me, my own personal reasons, I believe it will be better for the UK if it left the EU.

 

I'm conscious that on this forum its everyone vs me on this subject so i'm going to leave it there. This is on the basis that i've taken some time off work to game and not think about work or politics haha!

 

I'm a member of "Labour Leave" and we have completely distances ourselves from the main campaign.

 

I love a good debate though . Also good that its not been about immigration although there has been a few points above about it.

 

One further point I'd like to add: If Leave wins count on Scotland having a 2nd Independence referendum and count on it being more likely for the Independence side to win.

 

The stuff that is coming out of the SNP is highly contradictory! All the stuff about "working together" "working with your neighbours" etc etc.

[dazzybee]

@Blade a genuine fear is we leave the EU, Scotland leave Britain and join the EU, which would pretty much guarantee a permanent Conservative UK government.

[Blade]

@Blade a genuine fear is we leave the EU, Scotland leave Britain and join the EU, which would pretty much guarantee a permanent Conservative UK government.

 

Yes, that is a completely genuine fear. Especially with attempts by Tories gerrymander the boundaries so it benefits them.

 

The whole thing about changing voter registration was aimed at lowering the Labour turnout. It has hurt democracy in this referendum. Everyone should be automatically registered in my opinion. I also a huge supporter of compulsory voting too.

 

I would love a devo max/federal UK. With strong parliaments for each constitute part of the UK. Similar to the US. Also complete reform of the House of Lords too. Also ironically it is the upper house that has defended us against Tory onslaught.

 

There you have it haha! I've gone a bit off topic.

 

Right, time to have a couple of hours gaming before we see the new Zelda

[Ashley]

The British people (as a group) elect their MPs, the British people have no say over the the composition of the EU Council and neither does any other member state.

 

The European people (as a group) elect their MEPs...

 

We have no say over the House of Lords.

 

A pure democracy is a nice ideal but difficult in practice and you've got to accept there are aspects that are more or less democratic. Clearly this is an important one for you and fair enough, but for me personally in the grand scheme of things it isn't.

 

And the thought of Alexander Johnson as our PM is terrifying.

[Shorty]

I'm conscious that on this forum its everyone vs me on this subject so i'm going to leave it there.

I wouldn't worry about that! It's healthy to debate this. No point in the thread if we all just nodded and agreed.

 

I think some people will be glad to know that amongst those voting out, there are some level headed people doing it for reasons they have thought through.

 

I'm voting in. Also, I expect we will stay in, if only for the same reason I never expected Scotland to vote for their independence: because I just don't see enough people wanting to shake it up and enter the unknown. However if we do end up out, I hope the majority of people are voting because of the reasons you have listed, and not because they think there's too many brown people. We might disagree but it's good to read nonetheless.

 

Compared to many of the banal arguments that take place in other corners of these boards, this one's actually palatable.

[Hero-of-Time]

@Blade as you can see, I voted out as well but I have no interest in explaining why or hashing it out with opposition. My reasons are my own and people poking holes or disagreeing with said reasons will not change my mind. I vote but have no desire to debate about it.

[Cube]

@Blade a genuine fear is we leave the EU, Scotland leave Britain and join the EU, which would pretty much guarantee a permanent Conservative UK government.

 

If that happens, can Wales become part of Scotland?