Jimbob Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Saw this trending on facebook, apparantly Netflix are cracking down* on people using VPN's and Proxies to access US Netflix using a UK account in the UK. *I say Netflix, it's the movie companies that are pressuring them to do this. Thoughts?
S.C.G Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 If the UK service didn't suck in the first place, then people wouldn't have to resort to these means to access the US service. :p From what I gather, there is more choice from the latter region than there is from the former. So surely the answer is to give their subscribers what they want? Otherwise if you take away the means to access the US region of Netflix from here then people just won't pay for it any longer, unless they aren't paying for it in the first place... if that's the issue then I could understand but if they are limiting access of certain shows or films to their paying customers then I don't see how that benefits anyone?
Tales Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 That would be unfortunate. Can't promise Netflix I will have a running subscription then, but only sign up for a few months at time instead.
Jimbob Posted January 4, 2015 Author Posted January 4, 2015 If the UK service didn't suck in the first place, then people wouldn't have to resort to these means to access the US service. :p From what I gather, there is more choice from the latter region than there is from the former. So surely the answer is to give their subscribers what they want? Otherwise if you take away the means to access the US region of Netflix from here then people just won't pay for it any longer, unless they aren't paying for it in the first place... if that's the issue then I could understand but if they are limiting access of certain shows or films to their paying customers then I don't see how that benefits anyone? Most of the content issues with the UK one seems to be licensing issues with other media sources (aka Sky). They don't want the latest shows appearing on Netflix whilst they can have the stuff on their services. I for one wouldn't be happy if Netflix restricted me to the UK, i'd probably cancel it. This would affect Netflix a lot, because i reckon 90% of their subscribers use it to access the US version. Take that away, that's 90% of their income gone.
MoogleViper Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 It always amuses me how backwards some of these industries are. They complain about piracy, yet continue to hike CD/DVD prices. Services like Netflix and Spotify come along, and people flood to them. Proving that people are willing to spend money, but for a service that suits their need, not the old industry that's becoming less relevant. So what do the industries do? Restrict access yet again, pushing more people to piracy. I for one wouldn't be happy if Netflix restricted me to the UK, i'd probably cancel it. This would affect Netflix a lot, because i reckon 90% of their subscribers use it to access the US version. Take that away, that's 90% of their income gone. That's a huge exaggeration. 90% of people don't know how to use VPNs, never mind choose to do so to watch US shows.
Sheikah Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Yeah pretty tragic really. It's like the industry is being run by fossils with no clue how things really work these days. If people gaining access to US Netflix in the UK and elsewhere no longer can get their shows then they're more likely to cancel their Netflix subscriptions and just torrent it.
Jimbob Posted January 4, 2015 Author Posted January 4, 2015 Yeah, was a little exaggeration there. More like 20-30% maybe.
Gizmo Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 It's a licensing issue, it's not like Netflix deliberately limit the content available. They don't have the rights to make certain things available in certain places, and so obviously they're under pressure to stop people using their service to access stuff in those regions. I'm not exactly thrilled at the prospect of getting banned because I also use the American Netflix library from time to time, but come on people.
dazzybee Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 People don't know what theyre talking about. It's illegal, if netflix can stop it, they have to stop it. It's annoying for you and your individual lives, but let's look at the wider issue. As an example, Companies pay a lot of money for licensing, and for specific terrotories, so for example one conpany may own the UK rights to hunger games and American another one, if everyone is watching the amaerican one then a. It fucks over the UK distributor b. It lessens the value in future of licensing because the numbers aren't as strong. There will be lots of other issues that go beyond being an irritation to us lot. And lose 90% of income? Even 20-30%? I really don't think so...
Sheikah Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Nobody's arguing that it's legal, just that the law/current distribution method is stupid and should be changed. The only thing that will come about from this is that some people who used to pay for Netflix will no longer pay for it, instead opting to torrent it since they no longer have another means to watch certain shows sooner. Either that, or people keep hopping to working VPNs.
Jimbob Posted January 5, 2015 Author Posted January 5, 2015 Nobody's arguing that it's legal, just that the law/current distribution method is stupid and should be changed. The only thing that will come about from this is that some people who used to pay for Netflix will no longer pay for it, instead opting to torrent it since they no longer have another means to watch certain shows sooner. Either that, or people keep hopping to working VPNs. That's what the majority of the comments are when i was reading some last night. Most people would stop paying Netflix £6 a month and go elsewhere/back to torrents. I don;t know why Netflix don't offer an unlocked service for those wanting to view the US library. I've found a suitable site which i can continue watching some stuff, the show i'm currently watching is also available on Amazon Prime (which i was planning on getting rid of, but may keep if this Netflix purge on VPN's hits me).
MoogleViper Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 It's a licensing issue, it's not like Netflix deliberately limit the content available. They don't have the rights to make certain things available in certain places, and so obviously they're under pressure to stop people using their service to access stuff in those regions. I'm not exactly thrilled at the prospect of getting banned because I also use the American Netflix library from time to time, but come on people. Most people are aware of this. Jimbob even states this in the first post. As Sheikah said, it's the industry we're complaining about. *I say Netflix, it's the movie companies that are pressuring them to do this.
dazzybee Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Nobody's arguing that it's legal, just that the law/current distribution method is stupid and should be changed. The only thing that will come about from this is that some people who used to pay for Netflix will no longer pay for it, instead opting to torrent it since they no longer have another means to watch certain shows sooner. Either that, or people keep hopping to working VPNs. No it isn't stupid at all, it's vital to how distributioin deals are done, each territory is negotiated independently and so it should, they have completely different values, gives the power of selling (though barely) to the rights holder (for independent filmmakers this is vital). Also allows local distributors to keep running rather than having a handful of international ones fucking over the small guys, giving the big guys even more power which they'll then use to fuck over the consumer eventually anyway, and in wider distribution local knowledge if absolutely vital. Maybe in a world where there is only one services watch stuff it can be international, but 1. I doubt that'll ever happen 2. It's a long long long way off. We need s multi terroritory distributioin model, you're letting your own selfish desires make judgement calls on what is "stupid" with no understanding on the impact and importance of it all.
Sheikah Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 No it isn't stupid at all, it's vital to how distributioin deals are done, each territory is negotiated independently and so it should, they have completely different values, gives the power of selling (though barely) to the rights holder (for independent filmmakers this is vital). Also allows local distributors to keep running rather than having a handful of international ones fucking over the small guys, giving the big guys even more power which they'll then use to fuck over the consumer eventually anyway, and in wider distribution local knowledge if absolutely vital. Maybe in a world where there is only one services watch stuff it can be international, but 1. I doubt that'll ever happen 2. It's a long long long way off. We need s multi terroritory distributioin model, you're letting your own selfish desires make judgement calls on what is "stupid" with no understanding on the impact and importance of it all. I've already explained to you that this change will do absolutely nothing other than encourage piracy. How can you say this is anything other than stupid? Any distribution system that means people have to wait longer to see something that people are raving about is inherently stupid. It is not meeting customer demands, hence some people pirate in the first place.
Guy Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Netflix kindly gave the world a new season of Arrested Development and provided Breaking Bad finale episodes the day after they aired in the US, so I'll probably be subscribing forever regardless of how this pans out... but this still pisses me off. The UK library is good, but the service will suffer if people can't access other regions. Completely understand the reason they're doing this, but I agree with everyone saying this will push people back to piracy. My current entertainment flow is as follows: 1. Do I have what I want to watch on DVD or Blu-ray? 1a. If yes, proceed to watch 1b. If yes, but item is even slightly hard to grab from shelves, proceed to 2 1c. If no, proceed to 2 2. Does US or UK Netflix have what I want to watch? 2a. If yes, proceed to watch 2b. If something else to watch is found on Netflix, as is often the case when searching, proceed to watch 2c. If no, proceed to 3 3. Does a torrent site have what I want to watch? 3a. If yes, proceed to torrent 3b. If no, I haven't spent more than 10 seconds searching, repeat step 3 Pirating has become my absolute last resort these days. I want to keep paying reasonable fees to watch shows and movies, please let me keep PAYING YOU MONEY, NETFLIX, MOVIE AND TV STUDIOS. Roll on the day Netflix are funding and creating ALL THE SHOWS AND MOVIES.
dazzybee Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 I've already explained to you that this change will do absolutely nothing other than encourage piracy. How can you say this is anything other than stupid? Any distribution system that means people have to wait longer to see something that people are raving about is inherently stupid. It is not meeting customer demands, hence some people pirate in the first place. You really don't know what you're talking about other than how it affects you personally. It will make 0.01% of people resort to piracy (like that's the only alternative... idiots), but doing it strengthens the various territories distribution companies, strengthens the value of licenses in those territories, giving more residuals all round. So it affects poor Sheikah, but is better for the industry and the people who I care about, the film creators/financers. Not even going to respond to GUYS netlfix should just make and release EVERYTHING comment. I presume it's a joke. Worried it's not.
Sheikah Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 You really don't know what you're talking about other than how it affects you personally. How it affects people personally is exactly what matters. Because people are the customers - if they're not happy with a service then they might not spend their cash on it. It will make 0.01% of people resort to piracy (like that's the only alternative... idiots), but doing it strengthens the various territories distribution companies, strengthens the value of licenses in those territories, giving more residuals all round. Not sure what you're getting at with the 0.01% statistic - you're forgetting that this change only affects a small proportion of people to begin with. That is, people with knowledge of VPNs and people who use them to access US Netflix. When you take away VPN access from this technically minded subset of people then some of these customers will cancel and likely just torrent the show. The net result will be less money going back to show producers and Netflix. Also less of the calling people 'idiots'. It's the mindset of the current industry that needs to really change. If someone wants to watch a show that just released but they can't as the VPN workaround has gone then their only option in some cases is to wait or pirate. Industries need to recognise that meeting customer demands is crucial with regards to cracking down on piracy - rather than going down the route of enforcement. Because the enforcement route on the internet is not going to win.
Guy Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Not even going to respond to GUYS netlfix should just make and release EVERYTHING comment. I presume it's a joke. Worried it's not. No joke. They've proven themselves more than capable of creating great, average and mediocre entertainment in the last few years. This puts them on par with plenty of other television stations or studios. I'll gladly embrace future Netflix projects and welcome a world where more shows and movies are funded and released exclusively on Netflix. On-demand is the future of entertainment. Why pay a ridiculously expensive TV license for a load of content you never even watch when you can pay a subscription that can be terminated at any time and watch exactly what you want exactly when you want it? Sorry for moving off topic and sorry for worrying you. Also... I don't think anyone here is under any disillusion regarding the business logic and legality of blocking foreign Netflix content, but most people don't give a crap about business and legality - they just want to watch the stuff they want and don't mind paying a reasonable fee for it. The real issue here is the entertainment industry needs to start rethinking how they operate and start catering to people in ways that can keep revenue coming in. Edited January 5, 2015 by Guy
Jonnas Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Media distribution is still somewhat ruled by the notion that local people can't learn of what's going on in other corners of the world, when in fact they can download/stream something the moment it comes out. In today's world, setting better international guidelines for this would make more sense, yes, but it is entirely out of Netflix's hands (outside of some attempted lobbying). It will make 0.01% of people resort to piracy (like that's the only alternative... idiots) Where you live, yeah, I would say that figure isn't far from the truth. But there are plenty of markets out there where the alternative to "pirate it" is "go buy the pirated version at the local store". (Of course, Netflix can't exactly provide a better alternative in those countries without being subject to local restrictions, either).
bob Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 I just paid Unblock.us £50 for a years access to VPNness, so I'm not sure whether I'll get any of that back. Probably not. It will be annoying. I've not decided yet whether I'll be keeping Netflix after this, but I'll probably see how much we use the UK service for a while.
Jimbob Posted January 5, 2015 Author Posted January 5, 2015 I don't think it's come into force yet, i was watching something on the US Netflix last night. According to Netflix themselves, they've not changed any rules yet on the usage of VPN's. So maybe it was a temporary test in a small region before a more widespread approach comes into force. I understand the reason why movie and TV companies want Netflix to do this, but if the UK one wasn't updated so rarely and was updated as often as the US one in terms of content then maybe it will be ok. I'll see how the UK one fairs before i decide on getting rid of it and putting the money into a different service.
Shorty Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Yeah, was a little exaggeration there. More like 20-30% maybe. 20-30% of users outside the US. Who they don't really give a shit about, especially compared to their providers. They will drop us like we're hot if they have to and it will hardly dent their immense profits. That said, you can't just "block use of VPNs". Especially decent, paid for solutions (as opposed to an IP you can just google for). It's not that distinguishable if it's not being used to encrypt data. Edited January 5, 2015 by Shorty
dazzybee Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 How it affects people personally is exactly what matters. Because people are the customers - if they're not happy with a service then they might not spend their cash on it. It's VERY few users, and they won't give a shit whether those very few users want to break the law and who don't care about the wider industry. So no, it doesn't matter in this case. All that matters is providing a great service, which they kind of do; you sound a bit a like a brat - I want everything and if I can't have it I'll throw my dummy out!! Not sure what you're getting at with the 0.01% statistic - you're forgetting that this change only affects a small proportion of people to begin with. That is, people with knowledge of VPNs and people who use them to access US Netflix. When you take away VPN access from this technically minded subset of people then some of these customers will cancel and likely just torrent the show. The net result will be less money going back to show producers and Netflix. Exactly, it's a such a small amount of people. I was one of them may I add, Im not being moralistic, it's just the ridiculous attitude at them maybe (probably not though) blocking it, with no understanding, or desire to understand the reasons why. Also less of the calling people 'idiots'. It's the mindset of the current industry that needs to really change. If someone wants to watch a show that just released but they can't as the VPN workaround has gone then their only option in some cases is to wait or pirate. Industries need to recognise that meeting customer demands is crucial with regards to cracking down on piracy - rather than going down the route of enforcement. Because the enforcement route on the internet is not going to win. Rationalising piracy that quickly is a little idiotic in my view, also the victim chasing, blame inducing - it's THEIR FAULT!!! You're as bad as Amazon with the ridiculous 'serve the customer' mentality, it's like awful politician work. It sounds good to the masses, but in actuality would cause way more damage!! No joke. They've proven themselves more than capable of creating great, average and mediocre entertainment in the last few years. This puts them on par with plenty of other television stations or studios. I'll gladly embrace future Netflix projects and welcome a world where more shows and movies are funded and released exclusively on Netflix. How anyone would WANT fewer companies having MORE control blows my mind. It's good now, but as soon as the control and power is there then the screw will be turned. I love netflix, but to desire them controlling everything is mental. On-demand is the future of entertainment. Why pay a ridiculously expensive TV license for a load of content you never even watch when you can pay a subscription that can be terminated at any time and watch exactly what you want exactly when you want it? I agree. I don't have a TV license. Who's disputing this... who even mentioned it?! Confused. Unless I've missed something. Also... I don't think anyone here is under any disillusion regarding the business logic and legality of blocking foreign Netflix content, but most people don't give a crap about business and legality - they just want to watch the stuff they want and don't mind paying a reasonable fee for it. People SHOULD give a crap. Because the more harm it does the less content gets made, particularly by more risk taking creators, or smaller/independent creators. Were weaken distribution channels there'll be no money to make the content in the first place. then we'll just get the big company/studio offerings! The real issue here is the entertainment industry needs to start rethinking how they operate and start catering to people in ways that can keep revenue coming in. Yep, and they are, but it's fucking haaaaaaaaard. As we're still unsure of exactly how it's going to play out, and no one wants to make the same mistakes as the music industry (though, predictably, are), with the field changing everyone is renegotiating (writers and musicians for example were awfully fucked over on the old distribution contracts which have been going on for 50 odd years and they want, rightfully, revenge! Not revenge, but fairness, people don't want to lose stakes) it's tricky, and it will change, and when we live in a fully digital world maybe international rights will be possibility. To be honest, content makers handling all their own distribution and not losing 30% would be ideal!! PS I'm currently negotiating distribution deals on my first feature film so it's a little prominent in my life at the minute
Goafer Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 I heard Netflix is better at 50fps and supports voice chat.
Supergrunch Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) I understand the position of the companies like Netflix, who need to attract the business of media companies operating with regional restrictions. I also understand the perspective of the consumer, who just wants access to everything, especially when they're paying for it. To some extent, I even understand the position of media companies themselves, with regional restrictions not only being needed for economic purposes, but also for licensing, marketing, etc. I think this mode of operation is beginning to get outdated though. One interesting comparison is with online games distribution, where the leading giant is obviously Steam, although other services like GOG also do well (less so for direct rivals of Steam like Origin). Here's a much-shared quote from Gabe Newell on the topic of piracy, which extends to region-circumventing too: In general, we think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy. Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem. For example, if a pirate offers a product anywhere in the world, 24 x 7, purchasable from the convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the product is region-locked, will come to your country 3 months after the US release, and can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then the pirate's service is more valuable. Most DRM solutions diminish the value of the product by either directly restricting a customers use or by creating uncertainty. Our goal is to create greater service value than pirates, and this has been successful enough for us that piracy is basically a non-issue for our company. For example, prior to entering the Russian market, we were told that Russia was a waste of time because everyone would pirate our products. Russia is now about to become our largest market in Europe. Now, Steam isn't the platform for distribution of all PC games (although by now it's dominant), and I don't think it's completely free of region-locking (although such restrictions tend to be a matter of days rather than months or years). Two key factors in its success seem to be its near-universal availability, and the presence of high-quality exclusives (e.g. Half-Life, Counterstrike, Team Fortress, etc.). Netflix isn't actually too far off this model, with its growing body of exclusives, although of course the payment system is rather different (see Blink Box for a service that's more comparable to Steam in payment structure but has no non-regional exclusives). However, they also have a lot of region-locked stuff from other providers, and there's also a lot more competition than early Steam had, with other services like HBO snapping up a lot of the good exclusives. But I don't think it's entirely clear that the Steam model couldn't work here - if, for instance, Netflix focused on exclusives to the point where they had a large customer base on the strength of these alone, they could become desirable enough for other providers to want their content on Netflix too. And they'd then be in a position to demand region-free content, and might be able to gradually build up a library on this basis, eventually gaining dominance. But that would be very different and very risky, and so I think it's sadly unlikely that anyone's going to try this soon. Edited January 5, 2015 by Supergrunch
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