Super Smash Bros. Wii U Direct (23rd October 23:00)

[Serebii]

That video I posted shows it to. So do many others online. Just because you can did a few that don't it doesn't mean it doesn't run well at all, some people will have trouble with Smash Bros running well, it doesn't mean it won't run well at all... although if we go off Brawl then we shouldn't be too surprised if it runs like shit... what was Nintendo's excuse then? There was no "game ruining" voice chat there.

For the love of. You're a broken record.

 

Yes, some people undoubtedly didn't have issues with that game, and some didn't with Brawl believe it or not. It's all down to latency. If the people are close, then issues will be minimal. The netcode with Brawl wasn't perfect.

 

This game is being developed by Namco, who have great experience with fighting netcode. If they think it'd damage it, then it'd damage it. Try actually looking at facts and who develops it rather than just saying "Nintendo is rubbish".

 

Do you not think that they actually may have tested to see how it impacted and then made an analysis and came to this conclusion? Good god man.

 

My connection isn't the fastest but I was always able to use Teamspeak and/or (yes and, as in: at the same time) Skype and play every online game perfectly fine without any lag. Unless the game itself was the problem.

 

So it appears to be that if Namco/Nintendo invested in better/more servers Smash should be able to handle in-game voice chat.

On what games? Because most games don't require the splitsecond tracking Smash does and thus have extrapolation.

 

However, there is logic to it, using Skype etc. it doesn't utilise the Wii U's connection itself and thus that's free for just game details.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Serebii

[Kav]

For the love of. You're a broken record.

 

Yes, some people undoubtedly didn't have issues with that game, and some didn't with Brawl believe it or not. It's all down to latency. If the people are close, then issues will be minimal. The netcode with Brawl wasn't perfect.

 

This game is being developed by Namco, who have great experience with fighting netcode. If they think it'd damage it, then it'd damage it. Try actually looking at facts and who develops it rather than just saying "Nintendo is rubbish".

 

I am a broken record, but no more than yourself Serebii.

 

I've no doubt in my mind that it was entirely Nintendo's decision to cut voice chat from being in-game. Not for latency as you say, but for things like trash-talk or "in-game grooming" as Nintendo worry about the kids!

 

Just face it, when it comes to online Nintendo are dinosaurs. Stuck in their way and resisting evolving with the rest.

 

It's utter bollocks that they're doing this because of latency. Thats just an excuse for the Nintendo Defence Force to use!

 

...and you've totally skirted around my question! Come on, why don't you answer, how does Playstation Allstars bend the laws of physics?!!!

Edited October 24, 2014 by Kav

[Sheikah]

No. That's not how it works. For games like CoD, Mario Kart etc., latency can be covered through extrapolation. This is why you sometimes see jumping about. As such, the added strain on bandwidth caused by voice chat is fine because it'd be barely noticeable. (I agree it should have been in Mario Kart)

 

Conversely, for a split-second fighting game, where mere milliseconds count, then adding to the strain just so people can cuss at eachother, is not a good idea.

 

Also, Namco are developing this, not Nintendo.

 

Can you please post some sources to verify that the exact bandwidth required for voice chat would prevent smooth gameplay in these upcoming games (if, we're assuming, the games run smoothly in the first place, which wasn't the case for Smash on Wii). I'm especially doubtful of this given that it's an optional feature anyway, and people with fibre could choose to make use of it (but not anyone else, if what you say was actually true).

 

Unless you can specifically prove what you're saying for these upcoming games you can hardly blame people for adopting the de facto stance of assuming that what you're saying is most likely bull.

 

It's utter bollocks that they're doing this because of latency. Thats just an excuse for the Nintendo Defence Force to use!

 

It's pretty tragic that he has to come up with technical excuses for every reason why Nintendo doesn't do anything. I do wonder; why does he bother? By continuously doing it, I honestly don't think anyone here can take him seriously. How can anyone possibly believe him? He sounds like a salesman who will say anything to make a sale.

[Serebii]

I am a broken record, but no more than yourself Serebii.

 

I've no doubt in my mind that it was entirely Nintendo's decision to cut voice chat from being in-game. Not for latency as you say, but for things like trash-talk or "in-game grooming" as Nintendo worry about the kids!

 

Just face it, when it comes to online Nintendo are dinosaurs. Stuck in their way and resisting evolving with the rest.

 

It's utter bollocks that they're doing this because of latency. Thats just an excuse for the Nintendo Defence Force to use!

 

...and you've totally skirted around my question! Come on, why don't you answer, how does Playstation Allstars bend the laws of physics?!!!

 

Look. You may know games, and so do I, but there's something that I do know more than you and it's networking and computer processing.

 

They even bloody said that this was the reason. Seriously. Pay attention and learn how things work.

 

Can you please post some sources to verify that the exact bandwidth required for voice chat would prevent smooth gameplay in these upcoming games (if, we're assuming, the games run smoothly in the first place, which wasn't the case for Smash on Wii). I'm especially doubtful of this given that it's an optional feature anyway, and people with fibre could choose to make use of it (but not anyone else, if what you say was actually true).

 

Unless you can specifically prove what you're saying for these upcoming games you can hardly blame people for adopting the de facto stance of assuming that what you're saying is most likely bull.

 

 

 

It's pretty tragic that he has to come up with technical excuses for every reason why Nintendo doesn't do anything. I do wonder; why does he bother? By continuously doing it, I honestly don't think anyone here can take him seriously. How can anyone possibly believe him? He sounds like a salesman who will say anything to make a sale.

It's simple mathematics. You want proof? Get a bloody calculator and/or learn mathematics

 

The processing of the voice and converting it into data takes resources. The sending of it uses bandwidth. As such, it would impact on things, even if it's only slight.

 

Plus, as I said, THEY SAID THIS WAS THE REASON.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Serebii
Automerged Doublepost

[Sheikah]

It's simple mathematics. You want proof? Get a bloody calculator and/or learn mathematics

 

Honestly, what? A simple piece of mathematics - how can it be, when no two connections are the same? If it's piece of evidence that would prove your point, then why have you yet to produce it?

 

If it was simple you might argue (if, for the purpose of lulz, bandwidth was measured in potatoes):

 

Smash needs 10 potatoes to run well [and here is a source!]

 

On a regular connection, people have about 12 potatoes of connection [and here is a source!]

 

Voice chat, unfortunately, uses 3 potatoes! [and here is a source!]

 

 

Even if this ridiculous scenario had even a remote possibility of being true, lots of people have good connections to make use of it.

 

 

Also:

 

For the love of. You're a broken record.

 

Jesus. Fuck me @ the levels of irony here.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Sheikah

[Cube]

Here are the control options:

 

• Wii U GamePad (Max 1)
  
• Wii Remote or Wii Remote Plus* (Max 7)
  
• Wii U Pro Controller (Max 7)
  
• Nintendo GameCube controller** (Max 8)
  
• Nintendo 3DS series system*** (Max 8)
  

 

* Includes expansion controllers (such as the Nunchuk or Classic Controller Pro).

** Two GameCube Controller Adapter for Wii U accessories are required to connect eight GameCube controllers (each sold separately)

*** In order to use a Nintendo 3DS as a controller, each Nintendo 3DS system must have Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS.

 

One thing I'm curious about: can Amiibo be used in other modes, such as Classic and All-Star?

[Kav]

Well then @Serebii, if you know so much, explain to me why Playstation Allstars "bends the laws of physics". It's all well saying you know so much but when you don't actually back it up then it's tripe mate.

 

Also, regarding them saying why they're not including it, Reggie at one point also said that the WiiU's online features would be in-line with the other consoles', and you know the quote" online being the air we breathe. That was bollocls, I've no doubt this excuse is too.

 

[Serebii]

Well then @Serebii, if you know so much, explain to me why Playstation Allstars "bends the laws of physics". It's all well saying you know so much but when you don't actually back it up then it's tripe mate.

 

Also, regarding them saying why they're not including it, Reggie at one point also said that the WiiU's online features would be in-line with the other consoles', and you know the quote" online being the air we breathe. That was bollocls, I've no doubt this excuse is too.

I never said that game bent the laws of physics. Just because some people didn't have issues with the online doesn't mean it was perfect, as RedShell proved. There were lag issues, and a simple search of the Internet reveals that.

 

It's also ridiculous that you just assume that they're lying just because of one line of PR talk. Especially as, and once again, THIS GAME IS NOT DEVELOPED BY NINTENDO. Get that into your head

 

I am fed up with trying to explain these things to you two. It's ridiculous. You're just impossible to reason with. You ignore facts and mathematical logic just to go with your persecution complex

 

[Jonnas]

That video I posted shows it to. So do many others online. Just because you can did a few that don't it doesn't mean it doesn't run well at all, some people will have trouble with Smash Bros running well, it doesn't mean it won't run well at all... although if we go off Brawl then we shouldn't be too surprised if it runs like shit... what was Nintendo's excuse then? There was no "game ruining" voice chat there.

 

"Some" matches run well in Playstation All-Stars with voice-chat, just like "some" matches run well in Brawl. And yet you admitted yourself that SSBB's online was dreadful.

 

"Some" isn't good enough. It's like taking 37% in an exam. The argument is sound, not sure why you're dismissing it so easily.

[dazzybee]

It may not be developed by nintendo but it's a nintendo game and they would have made the decisions. And I guess the argument could be made that if voice chat could be in and be okay for some, or a bit lag for others, why not give us the choice? Voice chat only matches you can opt in or out of. Maybe some people would prefer voice chat and a bit of a laggier game...

 

 

Personally I don't care, lobbies is fine with me, but I can understand the frustration. Nintendo, though are improving, are still way behind.

[Jimbob]

I'll have a look at the direct later, but Mewtwo as an incentive for buying both WiiU and 3DS editions is cool.

[Sheikah]

"Some" matches run well in Playstation All-Stars with voice-chat, just like "some" matches run well in Brawl. And yet you admitted yourself that SSBB's online was dreadful.

 

SSBB was dreadful online; it had nothing to do with voice chat.

 

Someone present me with empirical evidence that the additional bandwidth used by voice chat would be sufficient to make a lagless game contain lag. Obviously we're talking about people with at least a stable broadband connection, since if they didn't have one then they'd be a liability to the game regardless. Until such proof is presented, nobody here has any reason to take his words as truth.

 

"Some" isn't good enough. It's like taking 37% in an exam. The argument is sound, not sure why you're dismissing it so easily.

With an optional function, 'some' is all you'd ever need.

[Cube]

By the way, this is the announcer

 

 

He's 22.

[Serebii]

Consider this. This is a game that they are recommending you get a network adapter for, in order to get more bandwidth, less interference and make it run as fast as possible, but is playable without it.

 

Let's say that it needs a constant 10mbps connection to run well. The game is set to do that, but wait. Some guy wants voice chat on. This then has to be converted and sent across the network, which takes up some of that bandwidth, introducing lag. For a decent voice chat, you need around 1mbps just for that

 

It also adds processing lag to the console. The console is running at a full 1080p60 for this game, and is likely using the RAM and processor like crazy, Having to convert and send all voice at real time would take processing power.

 

As I said, it is simple mathematics. If you still fail to understand that, then I suggest retaking GCSEs.

[Ashley]

Well then @Serebii, if you know so much, explain to me why Playstation Allstars "bends the laws of physics". It's all well saying you know so much but when you don't actually back it up then it's tripe mate.

 

Also, regarding them saying why they're not including it, Reggie at one point also said that the WiiU's online features would be in-line with the other consoles', and you know the quote" online being the air we breathe. That was bollocls, I've no doubt this excuse is too.

 

 

The "online is the air we breath" line was true! That's why they're dead.

 

Joking aside, can we all calm down a bit please and lay aside the ridiculous claims, demands, instructions and USE OF CAPS.

[Jonnas]

SSBB was dreadful online; it had nothing to do with voice chat.

 

Yes, this is what I said. I am unsure as to why you're repeating it as if you're correcting me.

 

Someone present me with empirical evidence that the additional bandwidth used by voice chat would be sufficient to make a lagless game contain lag. Obviously we're talking about people with at least a stable broadband connection, since if they didn't have one then they'd be a liability to the game regardless. Until such proof is presented, nobody here has any reason to take his words as truth.

 

"His words" being Serebii's, or the ones on the Nintendo Direct? Nintendo also claimed that 8-player smash is unfeasible online, should we doubt those words as well?

 

Also, kav posted a video where a 4-player match w/voice chat runs fine in Playstation All-Stars. Should I doubt that it had voice chat in the first place? After all, we can't hear any proof of that, nor does the uploader claim it did. Literally all we have is kav's word.

 

Just saying, if we're going to doubt the evidence we have (in this case, an official statement), we shouldn't be selective.

 

With an optional function, 'some' is all you'd ever need.

 

This is a fair point, actually.

[drahkon]

On what games? Because most games don't require the splitsecond tracking Smash does and thus have extrapolation.

 

Street Fighter, Injustice, PSASBR, Awesomenauts, LoL, Dota, Shooters, etc. etc. etc.

 

I doubt Smash is that more difficult to pull off online, but anyway. We won't get anywhere with this discussion.

[Serebii]

https://support.teamspeakusa.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/7/12/how-much-bandwidth-does-teamspeak-require

 

Now, when you look at these numbers, for 4 players, it adds up. Especially as there is no server middle-man, it's all P2P.

 

Those numbers good enough for you?

 

Street Fighter, Injustice, PSASBR, Awesomenauts, LoL, Dota, Shooters, etc. etc. etc.

 

I doubt Smash is that more difficult to pull off online, but anyway. We won't get anywhere with this discussion.

Other fighters are two player, not four. They also aren't as large in scope as Smash.

Not familiar with Awesomenauts.

LoL, Dota, Shooters etc. work through the extrapolation method I mentioned earlier. This is not a feasible thing for fighters, especially Smash.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Serebii
Automerged Doublepost

[Goron_3]

I'm not going to read the last 2 pages or so but I just want to say how disappointed I am that there is no voice chat during games.

 

What an utterly stupid decision. It's mind boggling that I could use voice chat in 2008/9 whilst playing a game like Street Fighter 4 or even in 2007 during Halo but for Smash I can't. Eugh.

 

Voice chat is just so important for me..it's the same with Mario Kart. I want to be able to interact with the person I'm playing against, particularly if it's someone like @Zell as we grew up playing Melee together. Oh well, Skype it is

[drahkon]

Still don't believe Smash just can't do it.

 

But that's just me

[Dcubed]

Mario Kart 8 has no excuse for lacking in-game voice chat, but Smash Bros certainly does. It's amongst the single most difficult games to get working properly online because it is a 4 player simultaneous fighting game (with dynamic stage elements and items - something that no other fighter has in 2 player, let alone 4 player!)

 

You can't bring up other games as counter examples here because Smash Bros is in a league of its own when it comes to online netcode. The closest example is Street Fighter, but that's only 2 players on a flat non-interactive background and that only just about works.

 

It's a perfectly understanadable concession here. There's a good reason why they're recommending a wired connection here after all! The fact that it works as well as it does in the 3DS game is an absolute miracle!

Edited October 24, 2014 by Dcubed

[Sheikah]

Yes, this is what I said. I am unsure as to why you're repeating it as if you're correcting me.

 

Sorry, my point was that there were no good Smash Brawl online games; it was broken by a delay regardless of your connection. Voice chat wasn't going to make it worse. However, by virtue of All Stars actually having games run smoothly with voice chat on, it is proof of concept that it can work. You don't need to prove that it works 100% of time; the fact it can work shows that there is potential for it as an optional feature for people with good enough connections.

 

 

Just saying, if we're going to doubt the evidence we have (in this case, an official statement), we shouldn't be selective.

 

Generally with evidence you assume that something has no relation to something else unless someone can prove a connection. Serebii has claimed that voice chat would not be feasible as that would break the camel's back for online play. He needs to prove it; it's that simple.

 

"His words" being Serebii's, or the ones on the Nintendo Direct? Nintendo also claimed that 8-player smash is unfeasible online, should we doubt those words as well?

 

Sorry, can't believe I missed this.

 

Of course you fucking should!

 

Not for any reasons pertaining to what is being said, but purely because they are words concerning online play, and coming from Nintendo.

[Wii]

No. That's not how it works. For games like CoD, Mario Kart etc., latency can be covered through extrapolation. This is why you sometimes see jumping about. As such, the added strain on bandwidth caused by voice chat is fine because it'd be barely noticeable. (I agree it should have been in Mario Kart)

 

Conversely, for a split-second fighting game, where mere milliseconds count, then adding to the strain just so people can cuss at eachother, is not a good idea.

 

Also, Namco are developing this, not Nintendo.

 

You talk so much rubbish. So voice chat should have been in MK8?

 

http://www.n-europe.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1675716&postcount=28

 

You defend their every decision. It was the same with SM3DW. Hyrule Warriors, it wasn't Nintendo's fault, Tecmo KOEI made the decision not to include online. Not Nintendo, the company paying for the game. The buck stops with Nintendo. If they wanted online, they'd have gotten online. Whatever whim they wanted, they could have made it so. There's always an excuse why Nintendo didn't do something. You can't be taken seriously. You've no impartiality whatsoever.

[Sheikah]

 

I am fed up with trying to explain these things to you two. It's ridiculous. You're just impossible to reason with. You ignore facts and mathematical logic just to go with your persecution complex

 

Serebii: It won't work; it's counter to mathematical logic (which I obviously understand, hurhur).

 

Sheikah: What mathemtical logic? Proof plx?

 

Serebii: I can't deal with this!! You guys are ignoring mathematical logic!!1

[Zechs Merquise]

Look facts are facts:

 

Smash Bros could have done voice chat. Street Fighter IV does it. PlayStation Allstars does it and Smash could have.

 

Latency affects all games, especially fighting ones (I believe these are the worst to get right over the internet and best example of multi-player games that are better locally).

 

I genuinely believe the biggest connection issues Nintendo has are due to them favouring the system of Wireless connections over Wired connections. I always wire mine in and it gives much greater stability.

 

However, @Sheikah has some real gall attacking @Serebii over the claim that voice chat would affect latency when he tried to argue that 30fps was better than 60fps and backed it up with some dickhead dev who was clearly trying to justify his less than perfectly running game.

 

The fact is this:

Some things should be accepted as standard by now, things such as voice chat in online, or 60fps and 1080p being the gold standard for gaming.

 

No matter how we all try to justify missing features, technical downgrades or connectivity problems - they shouldn't be present.

 

However, one thing is for sure is that there is a work around with Nintendo. You use Skype. I've been doing this since the Wii and will continue to do so.

 

Nintendo aren't perfect, and they are behind the curve when it comes to online options. However when it comes to making amazing games, they're still the best in the industry. So just ignore the fly in the soup - because that is what this problem is. It's something that can easily be worked around.