Anti-Gay Westboro Hate Preacher Dies

[Zechs Merquise]

Nobody here is mocking you. And making threats like that is a total dick move.

 

I am referring to the fact you insulted me. You are the keyboard warrior, throwing insults at me for having a different opinion to you. I did not insult you.

 

It's a simple statement of fact, you can hide behind your keyboard on your high horse dishing out insults. That is why forums like this embolden you. I'm stating a fact, in real life you wouldn't dare throw insults around like that. But I'm sure the mods will let your 'bigot' comment slide, however if I was to retaliate, as I would in real life, it would be me who gets shouted down - as I am doing now for simply saying that in real life I could retaliate!

Edited March 25, 2014 by Zechs Merquise

[Sheikah]

The dictionary definition of the word accurately describes you, so I don't view it as an insult.

 

Bigot - One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

 

You're free to believe what you want, but likewise, people are free to believe what they want about you for doing so.

[Blade]

I think everyone has said they don't care if someone is gay or not and wouldn't treat them any different.

 

I think Zechs has also said this. Doesn't make him a bigot. I also find repulsive the act of putting my cock in a man's arse. I don't care what anyone else does though.

 

This also means I am not a bigot.

 

So what we arguing about?

Edited March 25, 2014 by Blade

[Kav]

Hold on @Sheikah, are you and Diageo not being bigoted toward people who are anti-gay then? You've both said those with hateful beliefs toward homosexuality will treat them differently. They may treat them differently, but they may not. You're not saying they will. That's bigoted then is it not, going by your post.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Kav

[Sheikah]

I don't follow. Are you asking us if we are bigots for challenging anti-gay views?

[Jonnas]

you claim to be 'progressive' and 'liberal'

 

I don't recall these words being in this thread before you brought them up.

 

So what if it makes someone uncomfortable?

 

You know, the most ironic thing about your entire argument is that you yourself never seem to handle any sort of criticism or opposing view properly.

 

Either way, discrimination and bigotry are hardly the same thing as holding an opposing view. The former judges people on matters that have nothing to do with their opinion or point of view. It's lack of basic respect.

 

The fact is, it is more important in a free society to have the right to offend others than it is to have the right not to be offended. If gay people have the right not to be offended, then so do Christians or Muslims who might find gay couples offensive. You can't say the right of one person not to be offended is more important than the right of another.

 

So essentially, everyone in a free society should have the right to be what they wish to be - regardless of if that causes offence to another group. If Muslims find it offensive that people drink beer and eat pork, then tough. If feminists find it offensive that some women submit to polygamy or the burka then tough. If Christians find it offensive that gay couples live together, tough. But equally if gay people find it offensive that some people don't like them - then that is also tough.

 

We all do things that others may disagree with and potentially find offensive. But that is our right. Freedom is founded on being about to criticise and being able to take criticism.

 

And if I decide to belch loudly, it's tough luck for everyone else? It is true that there are hypocritical groups out there (the Hijab haters spring to mind), but this mentality seems to lack that same basic respect. If a muslim is offended by me drinking, I will apologize and avoid doing so in front of him in the future. If he raises a fuss after that, he's the one being disrespectful.

 

It might be our right to offend others and be disrespectful, but it is the sort of thing that brings all sorts of consequences. We don't live in a bubble, after all. Those who act disrespectful won't see any respect themselves.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Freedom of opinion does not qualify all opinions as equally true or sound; it protects one's right to have an opinion, but it does not protect that opinion from criticism. I will respect anyone's right to have an opinion, but I will not necessarily respect the opinion itself. On the contrary, if I consider an opinion bad, illogical or outright wrong, you can be sure I will criticise it.

 

But apparently that makes me a bigot who wants to silence people and get rid of freedom of thought.

[Kav]

I don't follow. Are you asking us if we are bigots for challenging anti-gay views?

 

Not that entirely, but you'd said that people with anti-gay views/beliefs will act differently and that we should challenge them.

 

The thing is, they may well not act differently and if they don't then why should we challenge them and not tolerate their beliefs... that is being bigoted towards them is it not?

 

It's that you'd said that they will act differently and hadn't considered that they may not, as some people don't. You'd be being intolerant to those people.

[drahkon]

I've learned a new word today.

 

bigot - someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust, hatred, contempt, or intolerance on the basis of a person's opinion, ethnicity, race, religion, national origin, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics

 

Thanks gays - I mean guys. : peace:

[Beast]

I disagree. If you have an opinion - for whatever reason - that homosexuality is wrong or disgusting it doesn't make you a hateful or bad person.

 

Going around abusing gay people or bullying people is hateful. Forcing your opinions onto others who don't want to hear them can also be hateful.

 

But I don't for one minute believe that simply holding an opinion makes you hateful. Once you move down this route of effectively demonising the right to hold an opinion it's pretty dangerous.

 

I've once went on a date with a girl who said she couldn't stand old people or children, was she 'hateful'? Not really. She just didn't like them. In the same way some people don't like cats or dogs. Now if you go around attacking old people or gay people (or kicking cats and dogs) that is different.

 

I agree with you but I think that it has the elements to make you a hateful person. As you said though, it all depends on how you act upon it. I think it's interesting that people can say these things and not act upon it.

 

I don't like the thought of gay sex or anything like that, it grosses me out but I'm not homophobic in the slightest. In fact, I fully support gay rights. My best friend is gay and he's exactly the same as me when it comes to straight sex. He can't stand the thought of a man and woman together. In fact, it knocks him sick.

He told me once he lost his virginity to another man and I was like "Ah, happy for you" and then he tried going into detail and I was like "GYAAAAHHHH NOOOO! DUDE!" and he laughed.

I told him when I lost my virginity and he was like "That's cool, did it stink of fish?" which made me laugh. I said no and I tried to tell him what happened and he just went "Eww eww eww eww eww" over and over again, haha.

 

This doesn't make us homophobic or heterophobic, it's just that penises and testicles don't attract me and vaginas don't attract him. Although, he does like breasts and I joke and say "You either want your next boyfriend to have a boob job or to have moobs then!"

 

The very fact you know certain people have homophobic beliefs means they preached it (unless you have the ability to read minds). If people truly had no intention of doing harm with their view, they'd have kept it to themselves. It's like someone hating the Chinese, then going around telling certain friends. What's the point? I can only think it's to find some sort of agreement with the people you tell, or validation of your own beliefs.

 

But would you think it is preaching if they asked them their views on it? Like, for example, if I was to ask you if you had homophobic beliefs and you said "yes" and then explained, would this be preaching? Just wondering how far it would be preaching.

 

See, I'd say preaching is if you bothered people with it. Like, if I was to go up to people and randomly say what I believe and tried to get them to believe in it too, I'd say that's preaching.

[Iun]

 

See, I'd say preaching is if you bothered people with it. Like, if I was to go up to people and randomly say what I believe and tried to get them to believe in it too, I'd say that's preaching.

 

Just like I do with my strongly held belief that the whole world is just a figment of my imagination.

 

You'd think I'd have made myself taller...

[Zechs Merquise]

And if I decide to belch loudly, it's tough luck for everyone else? It is true that there are hypocritical groups out there (the Hijab haters spring to mind), but this mentality seems to lack that same basic respect. If a muslim is offended by me drinking, I will apologize and avoid doing so in front of him in the future. If he raises a fuss after that, he's the one being disrespectful.

 

It might be our right to offend others and be disrespectful, but it is the sort of thing that brings all sorts of consequences. We don't live in a bubble, after all. Those who act disrespectful won't see any respect themselves.

 

So what if a gay couple are walking down the street hand in hand and a Muslim is offended by that? By your logic surely that should refrain from doing that in front of Muslims?

 

Why should you have to stop having a drink publicly if someone finds it offensive? The point being, everyone is going to find something offensive - if you pander to this then you are on a slippery slope to effectively enshrining that people have a right not to be offended - which actually leads to the rights of everyone being diminished.

 

Harassing people is a different matter - but expressing yourself and living as you wish to is surely a right, even though it will offend someone somewhere.

 

Freedom of opinion does not qualify all opinions as equally true or sound; it protects one's right to have an opinion, but it does not protect that opinion from criticism. I will respect anyone's right to have an opinion, but I will not necessarily respect the opinion itself. On the contrary, if I consider an opinion bad, illogical or outright wrong, you can be sure I will criticise it.

 

But apparently that makes me a bigot who wants to silence people and get rid of freedom of thought.

 

Of course all opinions are not equally sound in anyone's eyes. Everyone will believe there own opinion is right.

 

No one said you were a bigot for not agreeing with people. People were saying that those who were sounding as if certain opinions were almost 'thought crimes' were going too far.

[bluey]

*comes to post about death of hate-mongerer and share exchange she had on subject which sums up her views*

...

theeeere's...... a lot of hate in here..

 

 

Me: To be honest I don't think anyone should lower themselves to the disgusting act of picketing a funeral, no matter how much they disagree with the lifestyle, or object to the evil life lead by the deceased. Let's not sink to their level

 

Person 1: Sinking to his level. Yes, picketing the funeral of someone who dedicated their life and funded an organization dedicated to spreading hatred and promoting violence to a minority group is totally the same as 'sinking to his level'.

 

Person 2: actually that's pretty much the definition of "sinking to his level"...

 

Me: Person 1, what i mean to say is that possibly the best way to show these people that their behaviour as a "church" is totally disgusting and immoral is to NOT do the same thing. WBC members picket weddings and funerals because they disagree with the "life choices" and "evildoing" that they think is being committed... which is completely wrong of them - as normal-minded people WE know that spreading hatred and celebrating someone's death is wrong no matter what we may think of their lives.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

So what if a gay couple are walking down the street hand in hand and a Muslim is offended by that? By your logic surely that should refrain from doing that in front of Muslims?

 

Why should you have to stop having a drink publicly if someone finds it offensive? The point being, everyone is going to find something offensive - if you pander to this then you are on a slippery slope to effectively enshrining that people have a right not to be offended - which actually leads to the rights of everyone being diminished.

 

Harassing people is a different matter - but expressing yourself and living as you wish to is surely a right, even though it will offend someone somewhere.

 

 

That is a fair point, at what point do one groups rights out weigh another groups? surely the simple answer is if someone finds something offensive, its their responsibility to either get over it or avoid the situation that causes the issue.

In a way its similar to the morally outraged people who watch tv shows to get offended and then complain so it is censored,

Zechs example is a real life similar situation to that, where by Jonas' example if someone finds something offensive then the world should censor the other

 

to take it the extreme, extremist religious people find the very existence of other religious groups offensive, should they get the right to refuse the existence of the other?

 

basically the better way of dealing with this is compromise and/or the ofendee mitigating their own feelings by omission or personal reflection, it should not be the person perceived causing offense changing

 

 

hmm maybe thats the main issue, peoples perception

 

does all of that make sense? i know the things i want to say but i don't quite think i'm wording them adequately

[Sheikah]

It goes beyond merely thinking something though, doesn't it?

 

But if you wish not to associate with homosexuals or do not want to be around them why should you be forced to? That is your choice.

 

Avoiding people or treating them differently on the grounds of sexual orientation is discrimination. You're putting a belief into practice. Even if you don't actually do it, if you're arguing that that's ok then you're condoning it.

 

I mean, you're free to do it, sure, but don't get in a fluster when people call you on what it signifies. It would be the same as if I said it's fine to avoid black people. I could do it, but yes, it would be discrimination.

[Ville]

Well, it's a tricky thing for sure. The problem is that there are so many different views in the world that a compromise is not always a feasible thing to do. Let's not use condoms because they offend the Catholics? How about no. Let's segregate women because Islam has a problem with them? Same answer. In these kinds of YES / NO situations, it's basically the majority which dictates what the outcome will be, in the form of laws. In other words, while compromises work from a temporary social perspective (let's just all live and not be at each other's throats all the time), the fact is that different groups are always pushing their agenda to be the agenda if you let them. End result: endless bickering and power struggle, but what can you do...confrontation is a small price to pay from not letting religious / ideological extremists take over. And by confrontation I of course mean NON-VIOLENT discussion, debate and criticism. I would not consider threats to be a part of that...speaking of which:

 

The difference between you and I is that this forum emboldens you. It allows you to express yourself and mock me without rebuke. However here I have to hold my tongue. This is a marked contrast to what would happen in real life if you spoke to me in this manner.

 

Jesus, man. I actually agree with some of your points, but they're kind of diluted to nothingness with comments like that. What exactly is stopping you from "expressing yourself"? The fact that you can't use a million curse words or beat Sheikah up? It seems you're both sliding from "whose argument is better" to "who has the better insults"...

[Zechs Merquise]

It goes beyond merely thinking something though, doesn't it?

 

Avoiding people or treating them differently on the grounds of sexual orientation is discrimination. You're putting a belief into practice. Even if you don't actually do it, if you're arguing that that's ok then you're condoning it.

 

I mean, you're free to do it, sure, but don't get in a fluster when people call you on what it signifies. It would be the same as if I said it's fine to avoid black people. I could do it, but yes, it would be discrimination.

 

We all avoid people we don't want to associate with. That's life, suck it up.

 

I don't like associating with people who are religious - I avoid them because their outlook on life doesn't agree with mine.

 

If some people choose to politely avoid those who engage in acts they disagree with, it is a choice. We live in a free world where we can choose who we want to avoid and who we want to engage with.

 

People group together with other people who they have things in common with. Conversely they avoid people who they don't have things in common with.

 

Are you suggesting that people should be forced into associating with those they feel uncomfortable or don't want to in order to win some special anti-discriminatory badge handed out by social justice warriors?

 

If homosexuals don't want to mix with religious fundamentalists and vice versa, it's just freedom of association.

 

Just because you don't want to be around people doesn't mean you have to be rude to them. If I see someone handing out flyers for their religious cult, I just pass them by and politely decline - I simply don't want to associate with them. If someone doesn't want to surround themselves with something they don't like, it doesn't make them a bad person. If they were to seek out something they don't like and try to destroy it, that would be different.

[Sheikah]

If some people choose to politely avoid those who engage in acts they disagree with, it is a choice. We live in a free world where we can choose who we want to avoid and who we want to engage with.

 

You keep saying this, that it's your choice. When have I have I argued otherwise? I don't see why you keep mentioning it. You have fabricated yet again another argument.

 

However 'polite' you do it, it's still discriminatory to avoid people based on their sexual orientation. I don't really feel like arguing over this any more so I'll leave it here. But damn man, you should really reflect on some of the things you come out with.

[Ville]

Avoiding people or treating them differently on the grounds of sexual orientation is discrimination. You're putting a belief into practice. Even if you don't actually do it, if you're arguing that that's ok then you're condoning it.

 

I mean, you're free to do it, sure, but don't get in a fluster when people call you on what it signifies. It would be the same as if I said it's fine to avoid black people. I could do it, but yes, it would be discrimination.

 

But you know what? People treat each other differently ALL THE TIME, based on age, colour, sex, height, weight, religion, political views, clothes, personality, beauty / ugliness etc etc. That's just how it is, Discrimination City 24/7. Not everyone gets along with everyone, not everyone likes everyone. And yes, not liking a whole group of people (whites / blacks / men / women / gays / straight people) is a huge generalisation, but in a way it's just a larger scale version of what's going on everywhere all the time. Yes, such prejudice can and should be challenged, but if someone doesn't change their opinion then what? And that's the thing, some people never will...hence why the idea of a free society where people with different views and even prejudices can still somehow live together.

[Blade]

I chose to make my self chicken with brown rice today rather than white rice.

 

Please will the discrimination police arrest me.

[Sheikah]

So what are you saying Ville? Because it's done all the time, it's fine?

 

Sexuality and race are more personal things that people don't choose unlike someone's fashion, religion or political views. Hence, discrimination of those is more of a big deal and should be challenged more readily. You can hardly argue that racism is the same as judging someone's taste in clothes, can you?

 

And for the last time, I'm not forcing him to believe something else. I'm pointing out that it is discrimination. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Kav]

@Sheikah, are you not discriminating against people that hold different beliefs to yours by "calling them out and challenging their beliefs" though? You don't treat other people like that, why those with different beliefs? Why can't you accept they have the right to believe what they do, if they're not preaching or acting out?

[Sheikah]

@Sheikah, are you not discriminating

 

No, I'm not. Short but sweet answer.

[Kav]

No, I'm not. Short but sweet answer.

 

Short, sweet, but not quite correct.

[Beast]

Just like I do with my strongly held belief that the whole world is just a figment of my imagination.

 

You'd think I'd have made myself taller...

 

When I said that, I was aiming at the people who are near my workplace. I work in a shopping mall with a large supermarket on one side and a row of shops on the other and in between is the walkway with benches and stuff. Unfortunately, these are LITTERED with people who approach you and ask you for insurance, internet, charity and all of that shit all of the time and everyday, I say the same thing: "No but thanks anyway". I work there near enough every single day and only ONE of them has realised that I'm there every day and now we just talk a little whenever we pass- she don't preach any shit to me at all. It annoys me to no ends but I still smile and walk on.

 

They're everywhere now. I walk into a town centre and from one shop to the other, I always get hassled by charity. However, I found a little something that deters them. I tell them I'm 20. You have to either be 21, 25 or 27 to sign up to shit. Saying you're 20 gets you in the clear.

 

So what if a gay couple are walking down the street hand in hand and a Muslim is offended by that? By your logic surely that should refrain from doing that in front of Muslims?

 

Why should you have to stop having a drink publicly if someone finds it offensive? The point being, everyone is going to find something offensive - if you pander to this then you are on a slippery slope to effectively enshrining that people have a right not to be offended - which actually leads to the rights of everyone being diminished.

 

Harassing people is a different matter - but expressing yourself and living as you wish to is surely a right, even though it will offend someone somewhere.

 

I agree with this and the point raised about religions finding homosexuality offensive is a good one.

 

There are some Christians out there who also find same-sex relationships offensive. I would say, in order to avoid stuff, a compromise needs to be held. I think it's a little unfair to ask people to not do something because it offends their beliefs. For instance, with drink, if we were out and I drank alcohol and someone asked me not to because it offends them, I'd be okay with that but then what about the other people in the establishment who are drinking alcohol? You can't stop everybody.

 

I think that a compromise is needed in order to live peacefully but unfortunately, because of different beliefs, religions and powers that want to be 'top dog' so to speak, it'll never happen. As Ville said, it's just all bickering, bitching, whining and fighting over whose religion is better and whose is real.

 

It goes beyond merely thinking something though, doesn't it?

 

Avoiding people or treating them differently on the grounds of sexual orientation is discrimination. You're putting a belief into practice. Even if you don't actually do it, if you're arguing that that's ok then you're condoning it.

 

I mean, you're free to do it, sure, but don't get in a fluster when people call you on what it signifies. It would be the same as if I said it's fine to avoid black people. I could do it, but yes, it would be discrimination.

 

I wouldn't mind either way if people wanted to avoid me because of the colour of my skin, they're missing out on my fine-ass chocolatey goodness and I'm glad they'd want to avoid that because I wouldn't want to waste my time with them! Their loss, not mine. I wouldn't cry over it. Okay, I might be a little offended but life goes on. Obviously their views are stupid and ignorant and if they want to judge me based on my skin alone, then they've been poorly educated or they have been mistreated at some point in their life.

 

I think that everybody has someone they want to avoid whether it be big or little. For me, I'd avoid people who pester me about insurance, beliefs, charity and all of them other stalls who try to preach that shit to me. They annoy my tits off!

 

Also, I'd avoid anybody who makes religion their entire life. There was a teacher in our school who was proper religious and all she ever spoke about was Christianity and how confessing all our sins every morning and every night would cleanse our souls and shit. She just really bugged me to no ends.

 

However, I'm quite interested to know your views on types: When I say types, I mean types of women/men. Say if someone would avoid dating someone who is ginger or something, would you say that's discrimination or just simply normal that they're not attracted to gingers?

 

We all avoid people we don't want to associate with. That's life, suck it up.

 

Just because you don't want to be around people doesn't mean you have to be rude to them. If I see someone handing out flyers for their religious cult, I just pass them by and politely decline - I simply don't want to associate with them. If someone doesn't want to surround themselves with something they don't like, it doesn't make them a bad person. If they were to seek out something they don't like and try to destroy it, that would be different.

 

I totally agree with this. Even though I avoid those people who preach that shit to me, I'm never rude to them. It really annoys me when people are rude to them and blank them, it just shows that they were dragged up, not brought up to have manners. I understand that it's a job and it pays the bills and puts food on the table but it doesn't mean that it doesn't piss me off when they preach shit to me every day.

 

Another thing I avoid is Domino's Pizza. Around my area, they get these people to dress up as a superhero or something, holding a sign with deals on it. At one point, last month or the month before where it was absolutely pissing it down and was windy as fuck, they sent a poor guy out there dressed as Iron Man holding the sign. Apparently, they pay them £20 to stand there for a few hours. I just think that's really low to do that.

 

Overall, I guess what I'm trying to say is why can't people just be polite and compromise and understand each other and talk in a civilised manner? Surely the world would be a better place this way!

 

For the record, I'm actually enjoying reading this thread because of the different views and opinions. It's really made me think a lot on this shit. I love discussions like this and I love it when people challenge my views. Challenging views and opinions is healthy in life and can make for a brilliant discussion, such as this one, and it can also broaden your mind and sometimes, even change your opinion and see everything in a different light.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Animal