Kids, Marriage, Maternity Leave, Conforminggg

[Emma]

I agree with @jayseven that not having kids is selfish (your'e doing what you want to do instead of creating life and giving your everything to it) but that's not a bad thing. I think that's the important part. At the end of the day, it's your life and you need to do what you want, and what makes you happy.

 

I don't feel like I'm being bothered about marriage or kids. I know my mum really wants grandchildren and I'm her only daughter, but I don't feel any pressure. Maybe it's because I'm only 25?

[Ashley]

I have too much awesomeness to bestow on one little person, I am going to give everything I have to everyone I meet.

 

Or something that sounds less slutty and creepy...

 

tl;dr I have no tl;dr.

[Magnus]

I have too much awesomeness to bestow on one little person

So how many kids do you want?

[Ashley]

I would like to become a parent to no more than one child. Maybe not even that.

[Fierce_LiNk]

I think most of us on here have it in them to be good parents. I think it's actually more selfish to think "I don't want kids" than "I want kids because I don't want to die alone". I respect both opinions (I currently don't want kids!). I wonder how many people have excuses for not wanting kids, but secretly (or openly) just really, really scared they'll be awful parents that will just psychologically fuck up their children, if they had any.

 

I agree with @jayseven that not having kids is selfish (your'e doing what you want to do instead of creating life and giving your everything to it) but that's not a bad thing. I think that's the important part. At the end of the day, it's your life and you need to do what you want, and what makes you happy.

 

I don't feel like I'm being bothered about marriage or kids. I know my mum really wants grandchildren and I'm her only daughter, but I don't feel any pressure. Maybe it's because I'm only 25?

 

But saying that something is selfish should be considered "bad". Also, I don't really understand the notion that you should feel bad because you're doing something else that you want to do instead of giving all of your time, energy, money and devotion to children. What I have a big problem with is that people jump into the whole "family life" idea too quickly. I got told last week that, at the age of 26, I would be classed as an old parent in Wales, as many people have kids at 18. Fuck that.

 

I don't hate children. In fact, I love them, otherwise I wouldn't be in this profession. But, I also like so many other things and value the time that I dedicate to those things. Once you have kids, the amount of time that you get to spend on those things grows less and less. You're a parent 24/7, which is a fucking huge commitment. Why rush into it and do it when you're my age (26) rather than waiting a few years and having much more information, wisdom and stories to pass down, and do it properly with better financial backing?

[jayseven]

It is definitely a huge commitment. I also agree that it should be done with a strong financial standpoint. The issue I see is that whilst one can currently see having children as a drain on one's present hobbie commitments (movies, games, etc), one is not able to anticipate how much one is going to be willing to sacrifice for the child.

 

It is hard to try and argue about the meaning or relevence of 'selfish' then to say "but I want to do more things." I think there's an entire universe worth of experiences locked up 'til you have a kid. I think it is a difficult decision, especially when you want to feel you've lived your life as much as you can before kids -- it's almost saying that having kids means you'll have no life. My argument that this is a selfish notion mostly stems from the idea that having kids unlocks a wealth of new experiences that are actually worth more than the things you want to do before children.

 

Again, I stress, I also feel I've not lived a full enough life yet. But if I were to find out I'll be a father shortly then I wouldn't begrudge that child for taking away my time to explore the world -- instead I would seek to ensure they were able to do what I could not, and indeed embrace and enjoy the experience of raising a child with my ideals.

 

It's never going to be a straightforward thing. There are many big questions at stake... but I do believe that, given a decent financial situation, I'd rather have a child and give them a good sense of life over selfish, personal experiences of the world.

[Fierce_LiNk]

It is definitely a huge commitment. I also agree that it should be done with a strong financial standpoint. The issue I see is that whilst one can currently see having children as a drain on one's present hobbie commitments (movies, games, etc), one is not able to anticipate how much one is going to be willing to sacrifice for the child.

 

It is hard to try and argue about the meaning or relevence of 'selfish' then to say "but I want to do more things." I think there's an entire universe worth of experiences locked up 'til you have a kid. I think it is a difficult decision, especially when you want to feel you've lived your life as much as you can before kids -- it's almost saying that having kids means you'll have no life. My argument that this is a selfish notion mostly stems from the idea that having kids unlocks a wealth of new experiences that are actually worth more than the things you want to do before children.

 

Again, I stress, I also feel I've not lived a full enough life yet. But if I were to find out I'll be a father shortly then I wouldn't begrudge that child for taking away my time to explore the world -- instead I would seek to ensure they were able to do what I could not, and indeed embrace and enjoy the experience of raising a child with my ideals.

 

It's never going to be a straightforward thing. There are many big questions at stake... but I do believe that, given a decent financial situation, I'd rather have a child and give them a good sense of life over selfish, personal experiences of the world.

 

If we go by that mindset, then we will (as a society) be passing on very, very little information down to our children, because we will have experienced little ourselves. What if your children live by that same mindset and have children of their own before experiencing more for themselves, because "it is the least selfish thing to do". We'll have a society filled with parents who have accomplished nothing, who have achieved nothing for themselves and have very little stories of adventure to pass down. Some might argue that we are already there.

 

Yes, some doors open when you have children, but some also close. Would I be able to start up a band or create music for myself, for example? Not when I have children, because it would be a strain juggling a stressful job and bringing up a child, as well as being part of a family. Should you just give up those ambitions because it is too selfish to have ambitions for yourself? I'd argue not, and what a great shame it would be for the world if people gave up their dreams as easily as that.

 

Edit: Just to clarify Jay, it seems like we're both in the same boat/mindset anyway that we're too "young and inexperienced/poor" to think about having kids yet, anyway. So, out of curiosity, what would you say is the ideal age to start having kids? I remember being younger and thinking that the age would be about 30, but it seems to be increasingly normal to have kids around our age...

Edited May 19, 2013 by Fierce_LiNk

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

With overpopulation currently on the rise, it seems more selfish to me to bring more children into the world. If you want a child, why not adopt one?

[MoogleViper]

So, out of curiosity, what would you say is the ideal age to start having kids? I remember being younger and thinking that the age would be about 30, but it seems to be increasingly normal to have kids around our age...

 

I would say before 30, and anything over 35 is too old.

[Ashley]

I used to say before 30, but the closer I get to 30 the more it becomes 35. And will probably become 40.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Ashley

[Jonnas]

Before 30. I don't want the generational gap between me and my children to be so large.

[jayseven]

@Fierce_LiNk yeah we do agree. I'm partly being devil's advocate, and of course any generalising statement will have holes. For sure, children will be brought up better with parents who have wisdom. I know that people have personal dreams and ambitions, but I think the important question to ask yourself is this; if you found out you and your partner were expecting, would it be life-destroying for you? Would you feel that life was over?

 

There will always be strengths and weaknesses for having children early or late, but generally speaking (again) my point is that you can't know how positive or negative having a child will be until you have one.

 

We'll have a society filled with parents who have accomplished nothing, who have achieved nothing for themselves and have very little stories of adventure to pass down.

I think the key word here is "nothing." This is the term that quickly becomes subjective. You, for instance, have achieved plenty, accomplished many things and have stories to tell. You feel you have not done enough yet. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you have, because that would be illogical and just silly, but I just want to see if your answer to my above question affects how you interprete the "nothings" from above.

 

Of course the antithesis is that you have someone who has seen the world, done it all... and would be a shit parent due to some personal flaw. It's never going to be perfect. But the element of what I'm saying is that in its purest form it is less selfish to bring new life to the world than to instead seek further self gains. I see your counter argument, that setting oneself in a position where a child's life will be easier or better, and I concur! Perhaps I've taken the argument away from the initial post you made. I guess I have.

 

So I guess there's the "I want to have kids when I am financially stable" logic, and there's "I want to have kids when I've experienced life." These two intertwine to become the generic "oh, when I'm 35" answer (which I, too, spout), but perhaps that steps from the biological worrisome period for women, and men generally feel their spouses will be a similar age to them, so 35 (poorly worded!).

 

But! When you hit that sort of age, what if you still feel you aren't experienced or wise enough? What if money isn't quite right? Do you postpone? I think there's an element that we're not really considering; the child's impact on your life. I have seen it in family; once a newborn is around it changes everything -- they would all argue for the better. Choices and life goals are made easier and simpler. I think if I were to find out I'd be a dad, I'd happily throw away many of my ambitions because the order of priorities would change. I don't think I'm being very coherant.

[Rummy]

I was going to say I'd never say not having/not wanting children is more selfish than having them(through choice or not); but I get where you're coming from in your argument jay. I think on a grander scale though, having children is always more selfish than not. The reasons, the act, all of it is incredibly selfish - I mostly view it as so because you create a life without its consent(which is the only way, of course). What selfless reason can one give for having kids, really?

[Daft]

Kids absorb so much time. Everything you do needs to take them into consideration. They're like a second job except you can never go on holiday. They also make you boring because once you have them, they're all you talk about (even when you aren't explicitly talking about them you actually are by proxy). I never want kids.

 

---

 

Edit: Just found this article, which seems relevant to the discussion.

 

The Referendum

 

...

 

I may be exceptionally conscious of the Referendum because my life is so different from most of my cohort’s; at 42 I’ve never been married and don’t want kids. I recently had dinner with some old friends, a couple with two small children, and when I told them about my typical Saturday in New York City — doing the Times crossword, stopping off at a local flea market, maybe biking across the Brooklyn Bridge — they looked at me like I was describing my battles with the fierce and elusive Squid-Men among the moons of Neptune. The obscene wealth of free time at my command must’ve seemed unimaginably exotic to them, since their next thousand Saturdays are already booked.

 

What they also can’t imagine is having too much time on your hands, being unable to fill the hours, having to just sit and stare at the emptiness at the center of your life. But I’m sure that to them this problem seems as pitiable as morbid obesity would to the victims of famine.

 

...

Edited May 20, 2013 by Daft

[sumo73]

Just before I got to 30, I wanted in my 30's to work hard, get married, have kids and keep that marriage strong....but life didn't turn out like that and 10 years on I feel differently to what I thought my life would be like now. Things change and while it's nice to set in your mind "I want to get married and have kids before I'm 25/30/35..." life doesn't always work out as you want it to be.

 

My younger brother got married and then divorced (his wife cheated on him) but married again and has two children with his second wife, my younger sister got married, had a child but now is in the process of getting a divorce although she has a new boyfriend now.

 

Although I'm in a long term relationship, I don't want to get married and this is for a variety of reasons and although I don't have any children I think I would feel sad if I didn't have any in the future. My girlfriend already has children from her a previous relationship and doesn't want anymore.

 

Marriage isn't for everyone and we shouldn't push or expect people into thinking that marriage will lead to children or that marriage=successful life. Also in general people are getting married later on in life and that means the chances of having children decreases. Look towards your grandparents era and they in general got married (before living together) and had children earlier than people today. Finally, there are many successful people (straight or gay) who are not married or living with someone who don't have children and this doesn't mean they are selfish or a failure in life.

 

In today's world more and more people live together, have or don't have children or become a mother or father to someone else's child and never get married, in fact marriage doesn't even enter their head. Perhaps we can't see the massive changes that have happened over the last few decades. I think also we need to take a serious look as to why many marriages fail. People have this notion of a fairy tale marriage or having children will improve their lives and it can if people work at it and I mean really work at it together. People need to see beyond the glossy magazines and the fairy tale and face truths about marriage, having children and the life commitment to both. It's hard work.

 

All I can do for now is be the best uncle I can to my brother and sister's children and that's what I intend to do. Perhaps in another 10 years time I might feel differently about children/marriage, perhaps it will be too late to do anything then but then again perhaps not.

Edited May 21, 2013 by sumo73

[Jonnas]

Edit: Just found this article, which seems relevant to the discussion.

 

I was about to say the article seemed awfully self-righteous, but then I read the whole thing. It still is, but that's the point, and the author is perfectly aware of it.

[Eenuh]

To be honest the entire topic of kids kinda freaks me out, these days even more so as I am aware of my age and how that affects things. I am currently 28, and I know my chances of having a healthy baby are basically just going to plummet once I reach 30...

 

However I do not feel ready for kids and I am not sure I ever will. I feel very uncomfortable around kids and just don't seem to "get" them or get along with them. Maybe it's a fear of doing things wrong, I don't know. But I have absolutely no urge to get kids or to become pregnant (even that just scares me, it's like Alien!). I haven't really done anything with my life yet, don't really have the money to do anything either, definitely not financially stable for a kid. Just... no.

 

But then I get nervous because what if someday I do want kids? I might be too old by that point. Will I then forever regret not getting a kid when I could (which is, now)? It kinda freaks me out a bit. And it doesn't help that everything seems to be about babies, even shows on tv are suddenly all about "OMG babies, kids, family!".

 

 

*ramble*

[sumo73]

I watched a documentary recently on NHK (Japanese TV) which I had seen before which talked about women over 40 having children and the problems that could be linked with it. Also I remember the stories from women who couldn't have children (after many IVF sessions) and the pain and stress they had because of it.

 

I wonder how as a society we value and respect people who don't have children or who have children later in life? I know, we look down on them and that isn't a society I want to be part of.

 

A few years ago I remember reading about J-pop star 'Kumi Koda' who said women should have children before they are 35 because after that age they have “rotten” fluid in their wombs. While it's great that Kumi had her first child before reaching 30 and was unmarried at the time (this is no longer something of real shame) this doesn't mean that people after that age can't have children. It also proves that some people in the media have no idea about life and should just stick to singing or whatever talent they have.

[Ashley]

I have an internalised pressure to have a child in order to please my family. They've not said anything, but I'm the only one who, if they were to say "I'm having a child" my mother would know she has a chance of seeing said child. My elder brother's was taken away from him (and ultimately it wasn't even his) and my little brother's is being used as emotional ransom by his ex. I can tell it upsets my mother as she would make a great grandmother and wants that in her life, but can't get close to any of her apparently granddaughters as she knows she may never see them.

 

But I don't think I want one. Maybe my 13 year old stepbrother will have one in a few years...and that'll be good enough.

[bob]

For your mother to become a great grandmother, you know that your kids will have to have kids too right?

[Ashley]

Oops. She would be a great (adjective) grandmother (noun). Not great grandmother (noun).

 

Should have read that through.

[bob]

Nah, it made complete sense, i'm just being a dick.