MoogleViper Posted March 20, 2013 Author Posted March 20, 2013 Not that I would of mind you! Should be banned for this.
Kaepora_Gaebora Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 Guess I should have written that as " not that I would have done that mind you!"! I don't want to be banned. Please. Also this chap who claims he didn't know what he was doing has also been on record saying that he was "pointing to my friend in the crowd". Wild claims!
Fierce_LiNk Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 I don't think this is a free speech issue, it's more of a freedom of expression thing, as he didn't actually say anything. Should you be free to express yourself all the time? No, absolutely not. You may hold your opinion, and hold it rightly, but there are times when you just should keep your mouth shut. For example: 1 Walking into Harlem and shouting "FUCKING NIGGERS EVERYWHERE" 2 Going to Jerusalem and saying "Look, Jews are responsible for so many of the world's ills" 3 Sitting in an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting and muttering "Jesus Christ, you guys need to lighten up, have a drink or something" Freedom of speech and freedom of expression are nice, but there are a few limits to them. Be sensible. One of the most important things to know about your "rights" is when to appropriately exercise them. Back to this specific case, I think the reaction was over the top. This post sums up my views. I believe the player knew what he was doing, but perhaps got too carried away by the moment and didn't "think" things through properly. He deserves to get punished for this. Sportsmen are under the spotlight and have to be seen as good role models for others. You can't do what he did and expect no repercussions from it.
Rummy Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 Ignorance is not a defence. I feel a bit bad if he didn't realise what he did, but then if I was accidentally racist at work without realising but it was out of order/someone was offended; could I expect that I shouldn't be punished? Ignorance is not a defence. It's harsh, it's unfortunate, but it is not an excuse.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 Free speech is dangerous. Lack of same infinitely more so. I can't actually believe people are advocating nazi salutes in football.. Come now, nobody's advocating it. They're saying they find the reaction somewhat harsh. The first time I read the story I felt sympathy for him because he genuinely didn't seem to know what it meant; and to be frank, it's relatively easy for a regular wave to end up looking like the Nazi salute. Ooh! What if he was hailing Caesar?
Agent Gibbs Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 Zechs brings up a good quote in his slightly off point post.... "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" it's a fine quote and sums up how freedom of belief/expression should work, but its not black and white is it? it should be; "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it, but if you say it be prepared to accept the consequences" You are within your rights to freely express yourselves but be aware of your actions, your surroundings and how those around you will perceive it.....so basically @Iun's post
Ramar Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 Lack of same infinitely more so. Come now, nobody's advocating it. They're saying they find the reaction somewhat harsh. The first time I read the story I felt sympathy for him because he genuinely didn't seem to know what it meant; and to be frank, it's relatively easy for a regular wave to end up looking like the Nazi salute. Ooh! What if he was hailing Caesar? Bollocks. He's twenty not five.
Guy Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 If he'd got his dick out instead of busting out a Nazi salute, would a lifetime ban have been justified?
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 Bollocks. He's twenty not five. Well, I don't know how good the school system is in Greece. Is it completely inconceivable he didn't know what it meant? Anyhow, I don't have much besides a passing opinion on it.
Jon Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 People seem to confuse freedom of speech with freedom of opinion. You're perfectly entitled to believe what you want, expressing that belief however should be done on an appropriate basis.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 People seem to confuse freedom of speech with freedom of opinion. You're perfectly entitled to believe what you want, expressing that belief however should be done on an appropriate basis. What good is an opinion if you're not allowed to express it? What people seem to get mixed up is who has the right to set limits - and where. An employer can most certainly have rules about what their employees are allowed to express while representing the company. The law, however, should not restrict people from expressing any opinion in a public forum.
Jon Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 What good is an opinion if you're not allowed to express it? What people seem to get mixed up is who has the right to set limits - and where. An employer can most certainly have rules about what their employees are allowed to express while representing the company. The law, however, should not restrict people from expressing any opinion in a public forum. Why does an opinion have to be expressed for it to be validated? It's what you believe, expressing it doesn't change that. It's not just down to the law or employers, there's a moral element to it. You could believe that Hitler was absolutely right in everything he did and whilst few would agree with you, that's your view. Just because it's your opinion doesn't give you the right to march up to Auschwitz and tell everyone that.
Ville Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 Come now, nobody's advocating it. They're saying they find the reaction somewhat harsh. The first time I read the story I felt sympathy for him because he genuinely didn't seem to know what it meant; and to be frank, it's relatively easy for a regular wave to end up looking like the Nazi salute. Ooh! What if he was hailing Caesar? Yep, I've done the "nazi salute" on accident as well, I mean it's just extending your arm, i.e. a perfectly natural move... Damn Hitler, hijacking and defiling our arm movements >
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 Why does an opinion have to be expressed for it to be validated? It's what you believe, expressing it doesn't change that. It's not just down to the law or employers, there's a moral element to it. You could believe that Hitler was absolutely right in everything he did and whilst few would agree with you, that's your view. Just because it's your opinion doesn't give you the right to march up to Auschwitz and tell everyone that. It's not about validating opinions, it's about having the right not to have those opinions silenced. Obviously a situation like that should fall under some sort of harassment law. However, a free, public forum is something else entirely.
Jon Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 It's not about validating opinions, it's about having the right not to have those opinions silenced. Obviously a situation like that should fall under some sort of harassment law. However, a free, public forum is something else entirely. By that definition then, it's not really 'free speech'.
Jonnas Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 Yep, I've done the "nazi salute" on accident as well, I mean it's just extending your arm, i.e. a perfectly natural move... Damn Hitler, hijacking and defiling our arm movements > He hijacked that mustache and his first name too, the fucker!
Ville Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 He hijacked that mustache and his first name too, the fucker! And also the swastika. What a bastard!
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 By that definition then, it's not really 'free speech'. I guess that's a question of exact definition.
Iun Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 What good is an opinion if you're not allowed to express it? . Again, see comments regarding the prudence of expression.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 Note what I'm saying, though: I'm not advocating carelessness in expression, my point is that it's imperative we don't forbid the expression of certain opinions.
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