The Mario Epidemic

[Serebii]

Based on Sony's alleged advertising for their PS4 reveal this coming week, it brings to light something that a few people have noted, especially recently, have considered there are too many Mario games.

 

I can see why people may think this from the outside, but in reality, the games are so drastically different, I don't see the issue.

 

Let's look at 2011, 2012 and 2013

 

2011:

Mario Sports Mix - Sports game

Mario & Sonic at the London Olympic Games - Sports mini-game collection

Fortune Street (does that count?) - Board game

Super Mario 3D Land - 3D Platformer

Mario Kart 7 - Racer

 

2012:

Mario Party 9 - Minigame collection

New Super Mario Bros 2 - 2D Platformer

New Super Mario Bros U - 2D Platfomer

Mario Tennis Open - Tennis game

Paper Mario Sticker Star - Turn-based RPG

 

2013:

New Super Mario Bros U DLC - 2D Platformer (almost as big as a new game but cheap so I'm including it)

Luigi's Mansion 2 - Action Adventure

Mario & Luigi: Dream Team - Turn-based RPG

Mario Golf: World Tour - Golf

Mario and Donkey Kong: Minis on the Move - Puzzle

Possible:

3D Mario Wii U

Mario Kart Wii U

 

Aside from the NSMBs in 2012, which are an anomaly and will only remain one per platform, this is not that much of an issue. It's not like they're the same game over and over, or that they are yearly iterations of the same game but in a different locale with a few improvements, yet people still claim it's a yearly thing and that Nintendo are struggling to come up with new ideas

 

Now, personally I'm fine with this. It provides an eclectic selection of games,

some of which would likely be ignored by the general public if not for the Mario name, such as Mario and Donkey Kong.

 

So what do you think? Are you happy with the eclectic games, would you rather many of them not have the Mario name? Would you rather they only do one Mario titled game a year?

[Fused King]

Although it's nice that Mario is in tons of different genres, what's truly irksome to me is that you get to experience that same atmosphere of the koopas, the goombas, bowser, deserts, forests, snow worlds, bananas, shells, stars, and jumping over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

 

Make a Mario game where he can't jump and then we'll talk

 

Seriously though, if NINTENDO will continue this trend for many more years, they should take a note out of Paper Mario and The Thousand Year Door's book and start creating new worlds for mario that greatly differ from his usual visits to the usual.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Fused King

[Dcubed]

I do think that the Mario brand is being overused as of late. The unfortunate timing of NSMB2 and NSMBU is the worst offender by far though.

 

The games themselves might be very different (and a new Mario Golf is long overdue, what with it being 7 years since the last one!), but when you couple it with a lack of upcoming 1st party software that doesn't have Mario in the title, it then becomes an issue as Nintendo risk pigeonholing the 3DS as the "Mario machine".

 

It seems so bizarre for Iwata to acknowledge the issue and then go ahead and greenlight another gaggle of 3DS Mario games! The brand does feel like it's being overused lately - harking back to the mid-late life of the GCN where Mario appeared everywhere!

 

As a seperate issue, the NSMBU DLC expansion also feels unnecessary. Who is really chomping at the bit for even more NSMB gameplay? Wasn't the two games released just 6/2 months ago enough!?

[Cube]

I don't think the worst offender is two NSMB games in one year, it's the two 2D Mario games on the 3DS (unless the game significantly changed from the demo, it shares a lot more with the 2D ones than the 3D ones and has the same feel of the 2D games, which is something that isn't to my liking).

[Retro_Link]

The issue for me is not that Mario is in a lot of games, it's that they make up a large majority of the games Nintendo are releasing.

 

17 Mario related games in 3 years sounds ridiculous to me!

 

Why not have these spread out over 6 years and give some other Nintendo franchises a look.

 

Also they need to look at which Mario games they are releasing when. Why wait 10 years for a new Luigi's Mansion, and yet have 2 NSBM games released within the same year for example.

[Serebii]

The issue for me is not that Mario is in a lot of games, it's that they make up a large majority of the games Nintendo are releasing.

 

17 Mario related games in 3 years sounds ridiculous to me!

 

Why not have these spread out over 6 years and give some other Nintendo franchises a look.

 

Also they need to look at which Mario games they are releasing when. Why wait 10 years for a new Luigi's Mansion, and yet have 2 NSBM games released within the same year for example.

I think the problem is that the other games just don't sell

 

Look at the last F-Zero, it sold less than a million units. Same with Starfox. While people say they're core franchises, which they are, they just don't have the pulling power

[Helmsly]

You're right, most Mario games are quite different experiences from each other. Something like Super Mario 3D land is amazing but from the perspective of people that don't play Mario games often, its easy to throw out the criticism that "the're all Mario games, so the're all the same.".

 

At the time time their is some truth to that, like Fused King just mentioned, all of those games have the same environment, same enemies and characters.

 

And then you have Nintendo releasing two NSMB games not just within the same year but within a few months of each other, which doesn't exactly help the counter argument that they just make Mario.

 

I think it would be less of an issue if they had more of their other IP's being released around all of these Mario games. Obviously they don't JUST release Mario games but for the most part, those titles get the most attention/push in advertising so at times it really seems like Nintendo is pretty much just a Mario factory.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Helmsly

[Retro_Link]

I think the problem is that the other games just don't sell

It's true Mario games do sell for Nintendo and obviously they have to take this into account.

 

However, it didn't seem to matter to them/we didn't have this situation on the NES, SNES, N64 or Gamecube... all those consoles seemed to have a very well balanced distribution of Nintendo franchises.

 

Now whether that was actually the case if you go back and look at what games were released I don't know, but the important thing was that's how it felt. It felt like a wide range of franchises being offered to us, something for everyone, and frequently too. Diversity.

 

So something has got skewed somewhere. They were willing to put those games out back then... And that was even in a time when they weren't interspersed with NSMB games to bring the really high sales/money in!

 

OK, we're in a different financial climate now, and Nintendo maybe does have to pick and choose more... but lets not fall under the assumption that Nintendo are not sat on a huge money pot!

 

With franchises like NSMB and Pokémon Nintendo can fund other projects, they can buy other developers and properties.

 

If they want to just carry on developing Mario and Zelda in house, why not hand out their other franchises to some other developers more, like they've done and in the past.

 

For me personally, Nintendo need to get this balance back if they're going to keep me as a fan.

[Blade]

I do like Mario dont get me wrong. However apart from the playformers and Mario Kart I dont generally pick anything else up. It would be nice if Nintendo used their other franchises more often. Its a shame the other franchises dont sell as much

[Cube]

However, it didn't seem to matter to them/we didn't have this situation on the NES, SNES, N64 or Gamecube... all those consoles seemed to have a very well balanced distribution of Nintendo franchises.

 

We had a fair amount in 2005:

 

 

Mario Party Advance - Game Boy Advance

Yoshi Touch & Go - Nintendo DS

Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix (also known as Dancing Stage: Mario Mix) - Nintendo GameCube

Mario Superstar Baseball - Nintendo GameCube

Mario Tennis: Power Tour (also known as Mario Power Tennis) - Game Boy Advance

Mario Kart Arcade GP - Arcade

Super Princess Peach - Nintendo DS

Mario Party 7 - Nintendo GameCube

Mario Kart DS - Nintendo DS

Super Mario Strikers (also known as Mario Smash Football) - Nintendo GameCube

Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time - Nintendo DS

[Fierce_LiNk]

However, it didn't seem to matter to them/we didn't have this situation on the NES, SNES, N64 or Gamecube... all those consoles seemed to have a very well balanced distribution of Nintendo franchises.

 

Now whether that was actually the case if you go back and look at what games were released I don't know, but the important thing was that's how it felt. It felt like a wide range of franchises being offered to us, something for everyone, and frequently too. Diversity.

 

 

:p

 

We had this exact same situation in the GameCube's lifetime. "Nintendo are too heavily reliant on Mario." People just have short term memories or were feeling slightly "burned" by the Wii for whatever reason that they care to ignore the issue on the Cube.

 

Personally, in itself, it's not really too terrible having many Mario games as long as they are different enough in gameplay and offer something unique each time. Imo, the Wii got it probably just right. Mario Strikers was an excellent football game with a twist, The Galaxy Games are classics, you had Super Paper Mario which offered something different, too. If the games are unique enough, its not a problem.

 

The issue is starting to get slightly worse with the addition of New Super Mario Bros. Having two of those in short succession doesn't help, not counting the fact that both games look seemingly identical and don't offer anything really new.

 

He is the face of Nintendo, so he is going to used a lot, because he's part of the branding and he does sell. Personally, I'd like to see more new characters from Nintendo, but it's not all that easy to introduce a new character and have them accepted by everyone and expect them to sell in such great numbers.

[Retro_Link]

@Fierce_LiNk, OK well for me I do find it an issue.

 

You didn't highlight the important part of my post about the Gamecube in that it didn't feel like I was being overwhelmed with Mario... well actually it did a bit towards the end with the likes of Mario Baseball etc... but by then we were in the last year of the console and you've built up a nice collection/backlog of games to play. The NES, SNES, N64 and Gamecube had far more games based on other Nintendo franchises than we've had in recent years.

 

Another factor is probably that it's been building and building...

 

You like to highlight the Gamecube as being almost, if not as bad. Well OK, but when it's the start of a situation, you probably do somewhat overlook it. But when that situation then continues through on to the Wii/DS/WiiU/3DS... seemingly growing more and more in frequency, it's then you notice it far more and it becomes an issue with people. If it had been confined to one console and then rectified/the balance re-adjusted fine. But 'The Mario Epidemic' just seems to be getting worse, with no signs of slowing...

 

And that's not something I personally want to see or feel when I consider whether to buy a Wii U or not.

 

Moving forward I want to feel like I'm buying a Nintendo box, and not a Mario box.

[Fierce_LiNk]

@Fierce_LiNk, OK well for me I do find it an issue.

 

You didn't highlight the important part of my post about the Gamecube in that it didn't feel like I was being overwhelmed with Mario... well actually it did a bit towards the end with the likes of Mario Baseball etc... but by then we were in the last year of the console and you've built up a nice collection/backlog of games to play. The NES, SNES, N64 and Gamecube had far more games based on other Nintendo franchises than we've had in recent years.

 

Another factor is probably that it's been building and building...

 

You like to highlight the Gamecube as being almost, if not as bad. Well OK, but when it's the start of a situation, you probably do somewhat overlook it. But when that situation then continues through on to the Wii/DS/WiiU/3DS... seemingly growing more and more in frequency, it's then you notice it far more and it becomes an issue with people. If it had been confined to one console and then rectified/the balance re-adjusted fine. But 'The Mario Epidemic' just seems to be getting worse, with no signs of slowing...

 

And that's not something I personally want to see or feel when I consider whether to buy a Wii U or not.

 

Moving forward I want to feel like I'm buying a Nintendo box, and not a Mario box.

 

How old were you at the time? The problem is that as gamers get older, they get more cynical, too. You play more games, therefore less and less stuff "seems new". You get the feeling that you've seen it all before.

 

As for the other part of your bolded section, it's not really the case at all. GameCube didn't have WiiSports/Resort, it didn't have ExciteTruck, no Endless Ocean, no Punchout, no Disaster (I liked it :p), no Sin and Punishment, no Epic Yarn, no PROPER DK platformer, no Return to Dreamland, no Other M (a platforming Metroid). Plus, this isn't counting the Rainfall RPGS, because I can't tell exactly which were created by Nintendo, as that situation was confusing.

 

Simply put, there was more than enough games on the Wii that were not Mario orientated. My GC collection is but one quarter of my Wii lot. It's a complete blanket statement to say that the Wii was purely focused on Mario, when it really, really wasn't. I didn't even bother with Mario Kart this generation.

[Retro_Link]

I think you're right in that I am looking for something different as I get older, I'm wanting more new experiences, more new IP's/franchises... which I think is why I appreciate so much what Sony has done this generation.

 

I don't really see the point in listing games the Wii had that the Gamecube didn't, because you could do the same the other way round; the important point is that there seem to be an increasing amount of Mario games from the Gamecube onwards; a trend that only seems to be getting stronger as we move on into 2013.

 

---

 

Also...

 

He is the face of Nintendo, so he is going to used a lot, because he's part of the branding and he does sell.

Master Chief is the face of Xbox, we haven't had 17 games set in the Halo universe over the last 3 years.

 

And Sony have successfully been able to transition between consoles without an over-reliance on one mascot. Crash Bandicoot (PS), Solid Snake (PS2), Nathan Drake (PS3)...

 

There's no real reason Nintendo have to rely so heavily on Mario all the time, or if they do, they shouldn't have, as they are in the fortunate position of having so many widely recognisable characters and franchises.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Retro_Link

[Cube]

Isn't Sackboy the PS3 mascot?

 

Still, part of the reason for that is that the characters just don't have the selling power that Mario has. Halo is huge, but would do just as well without Master Chief.

[Retro_Link]

Isn't Sackboy the PS3 mascot?

Maybe he's the Mascot (not sure); but I'd still say Drake was the 'face of the PS3'. Either way then they've successfully had more than one, or never have to rely on just one.

[Serebii]

I think you're right in that I am looking for something different as I get older, I'm wanting more new experiences, more new IP's/franchises... which I think is why I appreciate so much what Sony has done this generation.

 

I don't really see the point in listing games the Wii had that the Gamecube didn't, because you could do the same the other way round; the important point is that there seem to be an increasing amount of Mario games from the Gamecube onwards; a trend that only seems to be getting stronger as we move on into 2013.

 

---

 

Also...

 

 

Master Chief is the face of Xbox, we haven't had 17 games set in the Halo universe over the last 3 years.

 

And Sony have successfully been able to transition between consoles without an over-reliance on one mascot. Crash Bandicoot (PS), Solid Snake (PS2), Nathan Drake (PS3)...

 

There's no real reason Nintendo have to rely so heavily on Mario all the time, or if they do, they shouldn't have, as they are in the fortunate position of having so many widely recognisable characters and franchises.

To be fair, those characters aren't as flexible to other gaming genres than their original

[Debug Mode]

Although it's nice that Mario is in tons of different genres, what's truly irksome to me is that you get to experience that same atmosphere of the koopas, the goombas, bowser, deserts, forests, snow worlds, bananas, shells, stars, and jumping over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

 

Make a Mario game where he can't jump and then we'll talk

 

Seriously though, if NINTENDO will continue this trend for many more years, they should take a note out of Paper Mario and The Thousand Year Door's book and start creating new worlds for mario that greatly differ from his usual visits to the usual.

 

Fucking this. The way they utilise Mario in his main series titles is becoming atrocious and really not worthy of praise considering how little effort is put into them. Nothing's wrong with an easter egg or some end game bonus that references heavily on the old experiences, but at least try and make the core experience something that is truly fresh.

 

It just seems so, un-Nintendo for them to be taking such safe bets with their leading franchise. Ever since their Blue Ocean strategy, Nintendo has shown itself to take risks for the good of expanding the over all market. The gamecube was risky at the time for going against the curve of not being an overall media device, but something that focussed on the games. The Wii was a risk with a control method that Nintendo couldn't have known for sure that the new control method would have been a hit. The DS was risky for utilising two screens, especially in a layout that nobody was really sure what to think of.

 

..But their software doesn't seem to really reflect that as of late. The Wii gave birth to the Mii and the 'Wii' game franchise, yet they still feel to use the Mario face to sell it. Mario and his friends could still be in the game, there's nothing to say they shouldn't be in there, but c'mon, what about all those characters from other Nintendo universes? Mario Kart usually likes to include a character from outside the Mario franchsie, but we need more diversity! Heck, it could even open the door for other franchises to become an interest for the casual market.

 

EDIT: Awesome idea for a thread and awesome responses thus far that are incredibly balanced.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Debug Mode

[Josh64]

I find it funny that their advertising basically says "oh no, another game featuring the most famous video-game character of all time" especially considering their desire to bring their own half-arsed versions as of late (LBP Karting and PlayStation All-Stars) but that's another matter :p

 

Personally, I think it's fine as they're all quite different and always very high quality titles. The one Mario series that I despise though is New Super Mario Bros. and I really hope they calm down with that one for a while. Why? Because of the things I just stated, every Mario game apart from these are high quality and different. The music, the same god-damn themed worlds and even the graphics are always the same old shit. Lazy beyond belief.

 

It's also no doubt what they're referring to, and as some of you have said, after the situation with 2 and U, it's no wonder some people are taking the piss.

 

NSMB is a disgrace.

[Grazza]

Difficult one. On one hand, I agree with Serebii's opening post. which is perfectly logical. On the other hand, alarm bells are ringing, especially after the last Nintendo Direct.

 

Firstly, I don't think it was like this during the GameCube era at all. Yes, I remember when they started bringing out loads of Mario sports and party titles, but they were just filler and it was obvious that's what they were. It was basically a way for Nintendo to say "You're not excited about the games? What about Mario Baseball?!" But most of that was after we'd had the "real" games like Metroid, F-Zero etc.

 

What's bothering me now is that Mario games, any Mario games at all, seem to be Nintendo's priority. I'm not counting things like Super Mario 3D Land and Luigi's Mansion 2, because they are lovingly-crafted games. In truth, I much enjoy New Super Mario Bros as well (at least on handhelds). But when we still haven't had a Metroid or Zelda, or a new franchise that's on the same level, something's wrong. I'm also concerned about how all the departments always seem to be helping out on others.

 

I know Alpha Dream probably weren't ever going to be working on anything other than Mario & Luigi 4, same goes for whoever's working on Mario vs Donkey Kong and the Super Luigi DLC, but then look at SPD 1 - the geniuses who used to make 2D Metroids. Now they're working on Game & Wario. My gut instinct is that something's not right.

[Retro_Link]

To be fair, those characters aren't as flexible to other gaming genres than their original

I'd say Crash Bandicoot was... and yet Sony haven't even had the need to use him on the PS3!... their original mascot!

 

Or for the recent generation take Sackboy's use across the PS3/Vita.

 

Also regarding Master Chief/Nathan Drake, I'm sure there are other genre's they could apply them too (it doesn't have to follow the Mario spin-off games formula)... 2D platformer, Side scrolling shoot'em up, Tower defence, Pinball, Light Gun shooter, strategy, puzzle etc.

[Fused King]

Master Chief is the face of Xbox, we haven't had 17 games set in the Halo universe over the last 3 years.

 

And Sony have successfully been able to transition between consoles without an over-reliance on one mascot. Crash Bandicoot (PS), Solid Snake (PS2), Nathan Drake (PS3)...

 

There's no real reason Nintendo have to rely so heavily on Mario all the time, or if they do, they shouldn't have, as they are in the fortunate position of having so many widely recognisable characters and franchises.

 

Very good point, ye ol' scurvydawg

 

Sony especially has been the home to many mascots, each getting pretty much an equal amount of advertising and none were overly emphasised in favour of others.

 

NINTENDO seems to think that their Triple A's are Mario, Zelda, Pokémon, Metroid and casual smile-makers, which is probably based on sales. However, what we see now is that they've actually created a good handful of new experiences on the eShops, perhaps to sort of kickstart new franchises...

 

Still, I'm not sure in what kind of position NINTENDO is in behind the scenes, because we might think that they're swimming in cash, but it's probably quite the task to handle all those yen well.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Also...

 

Master Chief is the face of Xbox, we haven't had 17 games set in the Halo universe over the last 3 years.

And Sony have successfully been able to transition between consoles without an over-reliance on one mascot. Crash Bandicoot (PS), Solid Snake (PS2), Nathan Drake (PS3)...

 

There's no real reason Nintendo have to rely so heavily on Mario all the time, or if they do, they shouldn't have, as they are in the fortunate position of having so many widely recognisable characters and franchises.

 

Seriously, are you going there?

 

Since 2001, we have seen:

 

- Halo

- Halo 2

- Halo 3

- Halo Wars

- Halo 3: ODST

- Halo Reach

- Halo: Combat Evolved Anniversary

- Halo 4

 

Majority of those are in the FPS genre.

 

Uncharted has seen 4 games since 2007, too. That's almost a yearly release.

 

If Nintendo were releasing a "main" Mario every year, you can bet there would be people bitching about it. This is almost/pretty much the same as Nintendo releasing a flagship Mario. Super Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi are Mario games, but they're a different brand entirely. The flagship games will always be the likes of Galaxy, Sunshine, 64, World, etc. The beauty of Mario is that he is quite diverse and there are many different varieties to his name.

[Serebii]

I find it funny that their advertising basically says "oh no, another game featuring the most famous video-game character of all time" especially considering their desire to bring their own half-arsed versions as of late (LBP Karting and PlayStation All-Stars) but that's another matter :p

 

Personally, I think it's fine as they're all quite different and always very high quality titles. The one Mario series that I despise though is New Super Mario Bros. and I really hope they calm down with that one for a while. Why? Because of the things I just stated, every Mario game apart from these are high quality and different. The music, the same god-damn themed worlds and even the graphics are always the same old shit. Lazy beyond belief.

 

It's also no doubt what they're referring to, and as some of you have said, after the situation with 2 and U, it's no wonder some people are taking the piss.

 

NSMB is a disgrace.

To be fair, Iwata confirmed that there will only be NSMB game per console. We'll just see DLC now until the next gen, 2D platformer wise

[Retro_Link]

@Fierce_LiNk...

 

How is 8 Halo games in 12 years the same as 17 Mario games in 3?

 

Uncharted is 4 games in 7 years....

3 were full on Home Console games and 1 was a full on Handheld game...

 

... If that was the way Nintendo treated Mario games, wouldn't that be far better? If over a 7 year console cycle (if it had lasted as long as the PS3) the Wii had had Mario Galaxy 1, 2 and 3 and the 3DS had Super Mario 3D Land... and not loads of Mario spin-off/side series instead... I think that more focused/refined approach would have been far better. And give plenty of time for other franchises between.

 

Also with Sony, you may say 3 Uncharted's on the PS3 is quite a few, however, they were also putting out and developing new IP's at the same time, something Nintendo's First Party studios haven't done for a long time.

 

Also, if Sony follow the trend, there might be a lesser reliance of Uncharted for the PS4; where as the overreliance on Mario has been building since the Gamecube.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Retro_Link