Beast Posted June 28, 2020 Author Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, Nicktendo said: This is nonsense. Class, culture and work ethic have far more to do with how well you do in society, not colour. Institutional racism in the U.S and the U.K has been over for years. That doesn't mean that people can't be racist, and many certainly are. But compare that to the 50s. Progress is being made, and there is still a long way to go, but you can't end it in a day. I think this whole movement is going to end up having the opposite effect that it desires. Maybe before handing out a special day to people to make them (and white people by proxy) feel good about themselves, we should actually get to the root of the issue of poverty, be it white, black or any ethnic group. Of course that would require undoing 30 years of telling people to "just do whatever you want, screw personal responsibility", rewriting marriage and benefit laws and would most certainly be absolutely, 100% racist. Just like celebrating people because of the colour of their skin. Britain is not a racist country and neither is America. Being treated equally, regardless of background, is enshrined in law. A conscious shift does not need to be made because the data shows that "white people" do not have a head start. If you want to see real institutional racism, real police brutality and real oppression of certain groups, go to pretty much any other country on earth. I find this reply thing hard to use because I don't know how to separate the quotes to talk about the different parts of it nor do I know how to put this text on the top because it won't let me so I'm just going to label the points as clearly as I can for each line. This is going to be lengthy but I also believe it's important and didn't want to completely ignore the points and posts being made so if you don't want to read this, I totally get it. There's simply no offence meant to be caused by this so don't read it that I'm writing this in an angry or defensive tone because I truly ain't. Also, I'm going to try and explain myself as best as I can so forgive me if you can't understand it too well. "This is nonsense. Class, culture and work ethic have far more to do with how well you do in society, not colour." I agree and disagree with this. I think it depends entirely on where you do, it's a grey area. I don't know if you've read it before but I have genuinely worked in a place where a staff member higher up than my position treated me differently because of the colour of my skin. To be quite honest with you, even though I've said I've always had a fair chance at everything, it is quite possible that the reason why I never got the promotion to assistant manager was because of my colour (referring to "GOT YOU, YOU BLACK BASTARD" incident) mentioned above as I was quite dedicated to the job (as I am with any job- even though it was a crap job) and I was the best in my shop at selling stuff and training the staff whilst the other guy, who was white and the racist one I was talking about, who got it even admitted he wasn't as good and didn't understand why. Now I'm not saying that this is true, which is why I simply dismissed it, but I am saying it's a possibility but then it could also be a possibility that the manager wanted me to focus more on sales. I don't think there's a clear cut reason for anything but it's under a grey area and I think it's that grey area that needs to be addressed- as in I think it's the fact that there's even a possibility of it in the first place that needs to be addressed. "Institutional racism in the U.S and the U.K has been over for years. That doesn't mean that people can't be racist, and many certainly are. But compare that to the 50s. Progress is being made, and there is still a long way to go, but you can't end it in a day. I think this whole movement is going to end up having the opposite effect that it desires" I wouldn't say it was absolutely over. Is it better than the 1950s? Yes it is but that doesn't mean it's entirely over. Some parts of the country are worse than others. These things can go on in secret. You can hire a POC because of the whole "Equal Opportunities" thing to make it look official but then be treated completely different when you have the job, off-the-record. "Maybe before handing out a special day to people to make them (and white people by proxy) feel good about themselves, we should actually get to the root of the issue of poverty, be it white, black or any ethnic group. Of course that would require undoing 30 years of telling people to "just do whatever you want, screw personal responsibility", rewriting marriage and benefit laws and would most certainly be absolutely, 100% racist. Just like celebrating people because of the colour of their skin." I'm going to try and explain myself as clearly as possible but I'm afraid of coming across this the wrong way. I'll give it a shot. I totally agree that we should get to the bottom of the issue when it comes to poverty as I think it's very bad for someone to live under such conditions. However, I do think it's important to celebrate our skin colour and also different cultures because that's what makes us us. I'm not saying to celebrate my skin colour but if I were to have a different belief or culture and I had the choice in celebrating it, I don't see the harm in it because it's where you can learn. It's like I've always said, I don't want people to celebrate my colour, not because I'm not proud (because I'm White and Black Caribbean and I love it and I believe everyone should love themselves too) but because it's literally part of who I am. It's like getting a medal for being something I can't help being. However, I do 100% believe that people can learn more and grow more and I do believe that talking it out with other people about their experiences and their past and listening to them is the way forward to change their views. You won't change everybody but even if you change a few minds, that's better than changing no minds. This is why I think it's important to have things such as Black History Month or spread awareness for anti-racism. 9 hours ago, will' said: I definitely see your point here. I would say the issue you run into is having a massively wide definition of what racism is, with a huge overlap on prejudice and I’m not sure you can easily work on either of them like this. By putting power on the other side of the equation you get a clearer delineation between the two and don’t have racism being something any joker can pull up as something they’ve suffered from. This part I don’t think is as valid. On each point: “it doesn't address racism between minorities” - it does, it just defines it as prejudices rather than racism. “we don't need a hierarchy of "Which race has power, in which order?"” - Definitely not, you just need to know who has historical power and continues to benefit from it - it isn’t any of the minorities. “It also promotes the "trap" that minorities can act nasty towards the majority, despite that being a very bad idea for discourse in general” - How exactly does it do that? It’s not saying that all other abuse and prejudice is fine apart from this specific part of it we call racism. It’s all wrong, including this specific part we define as racism. Wouldn’t it be better to acknowledge these differences but for that to be totally OK and not something to judge the character of your person by? If we wipe out recognition of all the differences we have we may as well all go about wearing grey suits being totally boring. At the extreme end I think it would marginalize people even more to get to a point where we just ignore all differences and consider everyone the same. Sorry to hear about how you feel over the past month, @Animal. Do you think the current highlighting of these issues is at least working in a positive way? I think this is quite a common view, but imo wrong. Things were easier to ignore before because things were “fine” - now we’re talking about it and realizing everything isn’t “fine” and it’s quite difficult for a lot of people to come to terms with. All of the initiatives taking place are not about driving divisions. It’s about highlighting differences, educating people and allowing everyone to live together no matter their background or choice of life to lead. It’s very easy to say “I’m not a racist” or “I don’t see colour” or “I don’t judge you by your sexual orientation”, but actually working towards a society where these things don’t matter is not as easy as that. I pretty much agree with everything you’ve said on the topic. I hope more people are starting to think like you after the events of recent months. "I would say the issue you run into is having a massively wide definition of what racism is, with a huge overlap on prejudice and I’m not sure you can easily work on either of them like this. By putting power on the other side of the equation you get a clearer delineation between the two and don’t have racism being something any joker can pull up as something they’ve suffered from" This is the thing- there has to be a fine line of balance. I know several black people who don't trust white people at all because of slavery just like I know some white people who don't trust black people because of stereotypes that have been spread about such as selling drugs, being nothing but troublemakers, they all carry knives, they're on the rob, etc. I honestly think that there is racism around and it shouldn't be like that but it's going to take a very, very long time for that to be completely gone. Dare I say I won't even live to see true equality. "Wouldn’t it be better to acknowledge these differences but for that to be totally OK and not something to judge the character of your person by? If we wipe out recognition of all the differences we have we may as well all go about wearing grey suits being totally boring. At the extreme end I think it would marginalize people even more to get to a point where we just ignore all differences and consider everyone the same" This, entirely! I think it's good to acknowledge differences and be okay with that but we live in a world where people judge others very easily. For instance, I've had people ask me about racism, my encounters with it and what they could do to help. Whilst it's good that they're interested in anti-racism, as I had stated before, I can't help but feel like it's this latest fashion thing. I see hashtags floating about everywhere, especially on a few people's pages where they "jump on the latest trend" to do with changing the world (you know, like if there was suddenly a month dedicated to saving the whales, they'd set up a JustGiving page even though they've never mentioned anything about it before) and I can't help but wonder if they are authentic. I think, with something like this, it should be handled correctly. Whilst I do think Black Pound Day can be beneficial, I also do think it can create issues in diversity in such a way that people would see it as unfair and would want a day dedicating their small businesses due to their skin colour and would be seen as "handing money to someone based on them being black and not because of their skill", which I understand. The way forward, for me anyway, is to talk and to actually give a shit about their experiences. At least, for me, that's all I want. For people to listen and see I'm the same as you. I don't want special treatment. "Sorry to hear about how you feel over the past month, @Animal. Do you think the current highlighting of these issues is at least working in a positive way?" For me, honestly, it's just absolutely highlighted my skin colour more to a point where it's hit home. This sounds super weird, I know. I knew I was mixed race and that I had different skin colour and I've been through a few incidents but I've somehow always managed to put it to the back of my mind and not focus on it until now. I've actually sat down and spoke to people about racism and it's hit me hard. I remember the first time talking about it about a month ago when the protests started and it was to my friends on Xbox and we were having a talk. I remember saying "I've been lucky because I haven't really had a lot happen to me" and they wanted to know what I experienced. I started talking about it and I was halfway through it and they said "Wow, you've really been through it, haven't you?" and I remember sitting there for a silent minute and then answering "yeah and the weirdest thing is that wasn't even all of it or even the worst of it" and I carried on. After I finished, they asked me "I thought you said you were lucky?". The problem is that I could bury my head in the sand and forget this but I couldn't and I shouldn't. I agree with some things that are happening and I disagree with some things happening. It may be seen as attention-seeking, like "if it's affecting you, why talk about it on this thread/post about it sometimes/etc", but it's because it's just as hard for me to not acknowledge it as it is to dismiss it when people want to know, if that makes sense. I don't want to deny people communication because they're engaging in a dialogue with me to learn and that's a positive thing as I believe it's the way forward. So yeah, I've grown up in a white family who have treated me no different, been taught in a mostly white school where the majority haven't treated me different (it's been a handful of white kids and a black teacher who have) but it's when I left school is where it all started. I believe it's positive for people to talk about this and have different views, even if I do disagree with them. (This is NOT an attack on anyone but) a controversial thing for me is when people say "All Lives Matter" because they don't understand "Black Lives Matter" because they're not understanding the meaning behind it. Obviously some understand and hit back with "White Lives Matter" meaning it in a different way. I've had several friends who have purely seen "BLACK Lives Matter" as only black lives matter and nobody else does, which is obviously not the case. All it takes is to calmly and rationally explain to them and 9/10, they'll understand it. The problem I see, and it's common, is people are very ready to shout "RACIST" to anybody who disagrees with a view to a point where the word will lose it's proper meaning. I understand I'm in a minority here but I don't really agree with the whole Winston Churchill thing either and the removing of the statues thing. I may strongly disagree with their views back then but at the end of the day, you can't erase history. Edward Colston did make money from slave trading but he used the money to start schools and hospitals- the schools are still here today. Will parents who disagree with Colston now take their children out of the school and stop teaching about him? Also, Churchill was a man who led the country to victory in World War II and yes, he may have had racist views, but people are forgetting the era of when it was. I think to erase it and possibly not learn from it is dangerous. People would learn from this. If someone looked at a statue and saw Edward Colston, they may Google it and read up on it. Same goes for Churchill. Whether you like it or not, this country was full of men like this back then and they changed the country. "I think this is quite a common view, but imo wrong. Things were easier to ignore before because things were “fine” - now we’re talking about it and realizing everything isn’t “fine” and it’s quite difficult for a lot of people to come to terms with. All of the initiatives taking place are not about driving divisions. It’s about highlighting differences, educating people and allowing everyone to live together no matter their background or choice of life to lead. It’s very easy to say “I’m not a racist” or “I don’t see colour” or “I don’t judge you by your sexual orientation”, but actually working towards a society where these things don’t matter is not as easy as that." This is something I agree with. Whilst I understand what I have said is a bit baffling, it's also good to highlight a difference but realise that in the end, we are all the same. I might have different skin to you but I eat, drink, piss, shit, shag, breathe, speak and have thoughts and opinions just like you. The best thing everyone can do is to treat other human beings the same and base them entirely on their personality. If you hate me, hate me because you think I'm a cunt, not because of my colour. . 8 hours ago, Rummy said: Ronnie you remain the fool you always insist on being. BLM is about highlighting systemic biases. The economic system is one if the most fundamental in the world and has a clear bias. Suggesting we help blacl businesses etc. by putting money in their pockets(ie the money that makes the world go round) given they are constantly robbed and disadvantaged by the system is not a bad thing. Unless you're white and suddenly scared Black People are getting power in one of its rawest forms in society especially in a time of pretty dire global economic positions - the power of money. Can't say I expect less of you though. You basically came in here and tried to 'All Lives Matter' the convo. So I think on that front here with you I am done. Also enjoy YOU being the one who thinks he has the write to decide what black folk may or may not find condescending...rather than letting them tell you themselves... Back to earlier stuff @Jonnas appreciate much of your response - but to clarify I was talking a bit lightly(no indians have really about faced me after finding out :p) and I had framed a lot of my post lightly conversationally to aim it towards @will' in part but also for other 'privileged white folk who feel they dont understand/see it'(as it were :p) - I imagine the bits of subtle racism both within and between ethnicities may not be something often seen/experienced by those in such a position. Back to earlier stuff @Jonnas appreciate much of your response - but to clarify I was talking a bit lightly(no indians have really about faced me after finding out :p) and I had framed a lot of my post lightly conversationally to aim it towards @will' in part but also for other 'privileged white folk who feel they dont understand/see it'(as it were :p) - I imagine the bits of subtle racism both within and between ethnicities may not be something often seen/experienced by those in such a position." It's weird you say this because some of the racism I've faced has been from minorities. It's crazy how it happens. You'd think that they would be more understanding. 8 hours ago, will' said: Asians in the US also have the highest level of inequality, with most of the wealth seeming to come from foreign born immigrants rather than Americans, (Source). In the UK there seems to be some level of the same thing though less pronounced. In either case the success of one race does not remove the benefit of being white. There is still a level of inequality in both societies that needs to be addressed. An institution is just a collection of people. If enough members of an institution are racist then that institution will be racist too. I think there has been quite a lot of news about the American police recently that would attest to this. You don’t have to have a written agenda of racism for an institution to not be racist. Even just continuing to benefit from previous racist policies should be seen as not doing enough to address the balance. I don’t think anybody should be too proud of the progress that has been made on this. Personally I think if you take the 50’s as the example then the fact we’re as we are now, 70 years later, is pretty shit to be honest. It’s definitely a huge problem, but who’s most likely to be in the worse situation? The histories of each race in Britain are very different and lead to very different positions in society in the present. If we truly had equality then none of these differences would exist. I think you’re just ignoring the issue. Just because we’ve got laws to stop these things doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I also think you’ve misinterpreted your data as for the most part it’s quite clear there is a huge advantage in being white in western society. It’s not about some particular race doing well, it’s about always feeling safe and having whatever opportunity you want - something white people benefit from every day. "I don’t think anybody should be too proud of the progress that has been made on this. Personally I think if you take the 50’s as the example then the fact we’re as we are now, 70 years later, is pretty shit to be honest." It really is rubbish. The fact that it's this long is awful, especially when we're living in a world where things are more accepting now. You'd think that it would be a Hell of a lot more different to what it is now. "I think you’re just ignoring the issue. Just because we’ve got laws to stop these things doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I also think you’ve misinterpreted your data as for the most part it’s quite clear there is a huge advantage in being white in western society. It’s not about some particular race doing well, it’s about always feeling safe and having whatever opportunity you want - something white people benefit from every day." I do agree with this. As I've stated, all I really want is for people to see me as me and not as a brown person first. I don't think that will end any time soon though as I do think that there are people who will judge me for my colour before judging me as a person. Like I've stated before, I don't think (to my knowledge, at least) I've lost out due to my colour and I think I've had a fair go at most things but it's the way people are that I'd like to change. I get judged for being mixed race and because I sometimes get mistaken for being Asian, I get judged on that too. I just want people to not see a walking stereotype and to just see me. I expect everyone else feels the same way too. It's just a weird world. 8 hours ago, Goafer said: You're right, it does. But as the stats I posted show, minorities are more likely to be born into a "lower class" and have less opportunities. They're still recovering from the racism of the past. Just because the actual racism is over (which I'd argue isn't the case, based on the police treatment of black suspects vs white, amongst other things), doesn't mean the effects aren't still being felt. And saying things were worse before (or elsewhere for that matter) doesn't make things great now. I'd argue this case is wholly irrelevant. You've picked very specific, hypothetical examples. Of course a middle class person is going to do better than someone with the odds against them. That's not the point. The point is how likely you are to be born into either of those scenarios. Again, just because it's worse elsewhere, doesn't mean things are perfect here. You just need to read about the treatment of black people by police to see that things are far from great. Also, as a general point about this thread and not aimed specifically at anyone: calling things "nonsense", "bollocks", "pathetic" or "fools" is just abrasive and argumentative. Try to keep things civil, yeah? I totally agree with this. It's crazy how things are, isn't it? I think it's good to open dialogue and hear different views but only if they are respectful. I know people who agree and disagree with BLM and the way it's going and I respect that. If I'm honest with you, this conversation has been one of the few where there's so many different opinions but everyone is respecting it rather than shouting over each other or trying to "cancel" each other. I'm genuinely enjoying people's viewpoints, even if some do differ from mine. I genuinely do think everybody here in this discussion is coming from a good place and means well, which is such a welcome change. 8 hours ago, Sheikah said: And what about black people? You think white people don't have a societal head start over black people? You think black people have the same chance of going on to earn as much money as white people given they are more likely to be born into more deprived areas? Same chance to go on to be Prime Minister or President? Same chance to not be killed by police? I agree that there isn't so much of a head start but I think everything goes back to different times. The times back then have paid for how it is now but I think change is coming. It's a slow burner but it's coming. Edited June 28, 2020 by Animal 3 1
Ronnie Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 13 minutes ago, Animal said: I find this reply thing hard to use because I don't know how to separate the quotes to talk about the different parts If you select/highlight the bit you want to quote, there should be a small popup that says "Quote this" 1
Beast Posted June 28, 2020 Author Posted June 28, 2020 1 minute ago, Ronnie said: If you select/highlight the bit you want to quote, there should be a small popup that says "Quote this" OH! Okay, that would've made my life a thousand times easier, haha. I was like "WHY CAN'T I SEPARATE THEM?!" and getting so mad, lmao. I'm too used to the reply boxes from before! Thanks for telling me! 1
Will Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 18 minutes ago, Animal said: For me, honestly, it's just absolutely highlighted my skin colour more to a point where it's hit home. This sounds super weird, I know. I knew I was mixed race and that I had different skin colour and I've been through a few incidents but I've somehow always managed to put it to the back of my mind and not focus on it until now. I've actually sat down and spoke to people about racism and it's hit me hard. I remember the first time talking about it about a month ago when the protests started and it was to my friends on Xbox and we were having a talk. I remember saying "I've been lucky because I haven't really had a lot happen to me" and they wanted to know what I experienced. I started talking about it and I was halfway through it and they said "Wow, you've really been through it, haven't you?" and I remember sitting there for a silent minute and then answering "yeah and the weirdest thing is that wasn't even all of it or even the worst of it" and I carried on. After I finished, they asked me "I thought you said you were lucky?". The problem is that I could bury my head in the sand and forget this but I couldn't and I shouldn't. I agree with some things that are happening and I disagree with some things happening. It may be seen as attention-seeking, like "if it's affecting you, why talk about it on this thread/post about it sometimes/etc", but it's because it's just as hard for me to not acknowledge it as it is to dismiss it when people want to know, if that makes sense. I don't want to deny people communication because they're engaging in a dialogue with me to learn and that's a positive thing as I believe it's the way forward. So yeah, I've grown up in a white family who have treated me no different, been taught in a mostly white school where the majority haven't treated me different (it's been a handful of white kids and a black teacher who have) but it's when I left school is where it all started. I believe it's positive for people to talk about this and have different views, even if I do disagree with them. (This is NOT an attack on anyone but) a controversial thing for me is when people say "All Lives Matter" because they don't understand "Black Lives Matter" because they're not understanding the meaning behind it. Obviously some understand and hit back with "White Lives Matter" meaning it in a different way. I've had several friends who have purely seen "BLACK Lives Matter" as only black lives matter and nobody else does, which is obviously not the case. All it takes is to calmly and rationally explain to them and 9/10, they'll understand it. The problem I see, and it's common, is people are very ready to shout "RACIST" to anybody who disagrees with a view to a point where the word will lose it's proper meaning. I understand I'm in a minority here but I don't really agree with the whole Winston Churchill thing either and the removing of the statues thing. I may strongly disagree with their views back then but at the end of the day, you can't erase history. Edward Colston did make money from slave trading but he used the money to start schools and hospitals- the schools are still here today. Will parents who disagree with Colston now take their children out of the school and stop teaching about him? Also, Churchill was a man who led the country to victory in World War II and yes, he may have had racist views, but people are forgetting the era of when it was. I think to erase it and possibly not learn from it is dangerous. People would learn from this. If someone looked at a statue and saw Edward Colston, they may Google it and read up on it. Same goes for Churchill. Whether you like it or not, this country was full of men like this back then and they changed the country. It doesn’t sound weird at all, I’m sure there are many people for which this is bringing up similar feelings. It’s super interesting (and very sad) to hear that you put so much of what you experience to the back of your mind to the point you will say you’re lucky, then when explaining it to friends it actually shocks them the things you’ve been through. I hope that this forum is a place you feel you can open up and share these things and gain something from those of us on the other side of things to make a positive difference. I’m quite embarrassed to say my initial reaction to Black Lives Matter was all lives matter, I’m pleased that I had people around me (including here), to point me in the right direction and start taking more meaningful action on things. I agree with you completely on the historical figures thing. It’s so hard to deal with the two sides of the people in question and what the right direction to move in is. One thing I’m sure is that you can’t just erase them from history. We do need to work out the right way to frame the good things with the lessons of the bad, and hopefully use them to be an even better lesson for future generations from all backgrounds. We definitely don’t want to end up in some weird 1984 style scenario where we all pretend nothing bad has ever happened and we’re all equal to the point of having no personality or history at all. 3
Beast Posted June 28, 2020 Author Posted June 28, 2020 18 minutes ago, will' said: It doesn’t sound weird at all, I’m sure there are many people for which this is bringing up similar feelings. It’s super interesting (and very sad) to hear that you put so much of what you experience to the back of your mind to the point you will say you’re lucky, then when explaining it to friends it actually shocks them the things you’ve been through. I hope that this forum is a place you feel you can open up and share these things and gain something from those of us on the other side of things to make a positive difference. Yeah, it's so weird. It's like I never actually sat down and thought about it properly before until very recently. I was talking to them and I was like constantly saying "Oh and there was this other time when..." and "Oh yeah, then there was this time when..." and I kept remembering more stuff. It was like a box in my head just suddenly opened and I sat there like "Oh shit, this is a lot, really". I actually really like this place. Everywhere I talk, whether it's social media or in real life, people are very quick to jump and defend and you find yourself saying "It's not an argument, it's an open dialogue" but you can tell by their tone that they're so fast to be offended and they feel the need to defend. But here, I do actually feel like it's very different and I'm actually grateful for that. Like even with BLM, I was talking to one of my white friends about it and he was wondering if I was going to the BLM march and I said "No because Covid is a thing and I honestly don't think it would solve anything at this current moment in time" and he was saying stuff like "You, of all people, should be going!" and basically preaching to me how I should be marching alongside him for change and stuff, basically making me feel bad and I'm like "Look, there needs to be a unifier, a spokesperson with a clear message on how to change things and there isn't one. There's no Dr. Martin Luther King, for example, who lead peaceful marches. This is just holding a banner saying Black Lives Matter with, let's face it, what feels like people are doing it because it's different, because they've spent months cooped up in their house with nobody to interact with and it's a day trip. No doubt there's people there for genuine reasons but you'll find that people marching will be like "We want change!" and when they get asked how they could do it, they're stumped. Also, I haven't stayed indoors for months to then go out and risk my health alongside people who may not follow social distancing" and then he just carried on by saying I should fully support it and commit to marches. We also had a big disagreement with Bo Selecta and Little Britain. He didn't understand why I wasn't offended. I'm like "Humour is subjective and it was different 20 years ago to what it is now. For me, I like humour that takes the piss out of stereotypes. I like White Chicks too, why is nobody mad about that? I'm not offended at all. Bo Selecta is taking the piss out of celebrities, there are black celebrities. If they were black, how can he portray them as a white, ginger man? In that respect, I don't completely understand why he should feel like he has to apologise. With Little Britain, they took the piss out of absolutely everybody including the lower class, fat people, etc. I'm not offended at all." and he said "Well, I'll be offended for you", which is my absolute pet hate. I know people will say he means well but it pissed me off because it made me feel like I can't have a brain or an opinion of my own or something. 36 minutes ago, will' said: I’m quite embarrassed to say my initial reaction to Black Lives Matter was all lives matter, I’m pleased that I had people around me (including here), to point me in the right direction and start taking more meaningful action on things. I think it's getting out of hand a little, for me. A couple of my friends say "All Lives Matter, including Black Lives" and for me, I honestly feel that's fine. People tend to disagree with me on this but it's purely because they're being equal. They don't dismiss anything that has happened and they want a change too. I think, for me, it's about listening to other people's perspective on things. If they come from a good place, I'm all for it. If they started arguing saying "We have it bad too" and "This is false" and stuff, then I can see there's a problem and it's their choice whether they'd want to discuss it or not. But even like you've said, people pointed you in the right direction through discussion, showing that dialogue can change people's minds, which is something I think would be far more effective than defacing and destroying statues. 1 hour ago, will' said: I agree with you completely on the historical figures thing. It’s so hard to deal with the two sides of the people in question and what the right direction to move in is. One thing I’m sure is that you can’t just erase them from history. We do need to work out the right way to frame the good things with the lessons of the bad, and hopefully use them to be an even better lesson for future generations from all backgrounds. We definitely don’t want to end up in some weird 1984 style scenario where we all pretend nothing bad has ever happened and we’re all equal to the point of having no personality or history at all. Exactly. There's good and bad in history but no matter what, it's history and we are here, in the place we are now, because of history. Are we going to stop learning about Henry VIII for his sexist attitudes towards women because he killed two of his wives for being bored of them? No! Are we going to stop learning about Adolf Hitler because of the stuff he done? No! Shit rolled like that back then and it's important for us to learn about how everything had happened, why it happened, how lives were lived back then, etc. I think shaping and changing the future is one thing but to try and change history is another and can be dangerous. 2
Nicktendo Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Animal said: I agree and disagree with this. I think it depends entirely on where you do, it's a grey area. I don't know if you've read it before but I have genuinely worked in a place where a staff member higher up than my position treated me differently because of the colour of my skin. To be quite honest with you, even though I've said I've always had a fair chance at everything, it is quite possible that the reason why I never got the promotion to assistant manager was because of my colour (referring to "GOT YOU, YOU BLACK BASTARD" incident) mentioned above as I was quite dedicated to the job (as I am with any job- even though it was a crap job) and I was the best in my shop at selling stuff and training the staff whilst the other guy, who was white and the racist one I was talking about, who got it even admitted he wasn't as good and didn't understand why. Now I'm not saying that this is true, which is why I simply dismissed it, but I am saying it's a possibility but then it could also be a possibility that the manager wanted me to focus more on sales. I don't think there's a clear cut reason for anything but it's under a grey area and I think it's that grey area that needs to be addressed- as in I think it's the fact that there's even a possibility of it in the first place that needs to be addressed. This is honestly disgusting and absolutely should not happen. It's extremely disheartening and depressing that it does and that you had to experience it. I can understand completely why people would want to dismiss it and wouldn't want to go through the hassle of trying to sort it out in a legal manner. This is one area that could absolutely be addressed using pressure and changing laws to make it easier for people who've experienced this kind of racism to come forward and have the infringements on their rights dealt with. 4 hours ago, Animal said: I do agree with this. As I've stated, all I really want is for people to see me as me and not as a brown person first. I don't think that will end any time soon though as I do think that there are people who will judge me for my colour before judging me as a person. Like I've stated before, I don't think (to my knowledge, at least) I've lost out due to my colour and I think I've had a fair go at most things but it's the way people are that I'd like to change. I get judged for being mixed race and because I sometimes get mistaken for being Asian, I get judged on that too. I just want people to not see a walking stereotype and to just see me. I expect everyone else feels the same way too. It's just a weird world. This is what I want to see too. I hate the fact that we seem to have moved backwards (in my opinion) in recent years and started to focus much more closely on colour and heritage, especially at a time when things seemed to be changing albeit slowly. I always judge people based on the content of their character and would always expect others to do the same. I think that's the least anyone can ask and people who don't do that should be called out on it. Race should be the last thing on anyone's mind. I appreciate your in-depth, nuanced post and agree wholeheartedly with many of the points you have raised. 4 hours ago, Animal said: I totally agree with this. It's crazy how things are, isn't it? I think it's good to open dialogue and hear different views but only if they are respectful. I know people who agree and disagree with BLM and the way it's going and I respect that. If I'm honest with you, this conversation has been one of the few where there's so many different opinions but everyone is respecting it rather than shouting over each other or trying to "cancel" each other. I'm genuinely enjoying people's viewpoints, even if some do differ from mine. I genuinely do think everybody here in this discussion is coming from a good place and means well, which is such a welcome change. This is what I find most distasteful about most of the BLM activists. And the rioting. And this: Quote We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world. We build deep relationships across the diaspora and strategise to challenge the rise of the authoritarian right-wing across the world, from Brazil to Britain. The fact that open Marxists are at the head of this operation has me extremely sceptical about their real intentions, and given the way the past month has gone, I find very little of what BLM has had to say actually have anything to do with improving race relations or the situation of Black people in either the UK or the US. 5 hours ago, will' said: I just don’t get how you can use this one example and claim racism isn’t a problem in either country. Do you think the millions of people getting behind BLM and other initiatives have got it all wrong? I don't think they've got it all wrong, but I do think they're taking the wrong approach, mainly for the reasons mentioned above. I believe I can use this example because if the U.K. was a racist country, the makeup of income / relative success would likely be much different. 5 hours ago, will' said: I guess if you take the view that police treat black people better than they treat other races then you can make the argument that the law is on your side in issues concerning racism. From what I see it would appear that that is not the case though. In the UK black people are likely to receive longer sentences for the same crime as white people. Where are you taking these stats from? It seems to be a very different position to what is mostly being reported right now. The stats regarding crime and police brutality are widely available. If I've got it wrong, I'd be happy to be proven incorrect. The point about longer sentences may be a valid one as I see it. And something obviously needs to be done about it. Of course, all factors need to be taken into account (such as historical criminal records), but if this is the case, then pressure should be applied to the judiciary to change this. 5 hours ago, will' said: We’ve had generations haven’t we? If you take a generation to be 30 years then that’s 2 (and change) since 1950 and 6 since slavery was abolished in the 1830s. Shouldn’t this be long enough? Is income by race the only measure we need to judge this by? I would disagree that racial barriers to success have been removed simply because you have some examples of some people being able to earn a little more than white people. You’ve taken one data point and declared racism solved. So how long should it be and what other methods do you propose we judge this by? Number of BAME people in government? Number of BAME people in high positions? In the Police? In the media? Should it be more than the proportional percentage of population numbers? The same? Is having fewer BAME people in such positions evidence of systematic racism? Focusing on ethnicity before anything else, such as ability, ideas and intelligence doesn't seem all too smart to me. Progress is being made, this is undeniable. Is it too slow? How can we make it faster in a practical way? Changing your behaviour or thinking is far too loose of a method, in my opinion. I could think of some practical solutions, but I'll maybe post them later as I'd need to properly sit down and think about them more deeply. Where did I declare that racism was solved? I clearly said racism still exists, and it does, but that institutional or systematic racism doesn't in America and Britain. 5 hours ago, will' said: I think the last part of this is quite racist in itself, you’re basically saying some minorities have a cultural problem because of their views on the police - and you think we don’t have an issue with racism? So if we can't discuss issues, how will we solve them? It seems to me that some people have decided "racism" is to blame for all society's ills. Growing up without a father IS a cultural problem. It's also a problem that affects Black communities in the UK and US more than any other community. I hate to break this down to skin colour because I don't believe it's a "skin" issue, it's a cultural problem, which also affects whites and other minorities. So please, hold off on labelling me as a racist, because I most certainly am not. Who do you think has the biggest issue with policing? Is it a real issue or perceived? Do we have any evidence for it? I believe it's perceived, but I'm again glad to be proven otherwise. 5 hours ago, will' said: The American Dream for the most part doesn’t exist. Yes it’s technically possible to change your circumstances in a generation, but it’s also possible that you’ll win the lottery - it doesn’t happen for most people. Just because the possibility of something exists doesn’t mean everyone is starting from a level playing field and their are no barriers to success. Just because there may be bigger problems doesn’t mean others don’t exist. If you finish school, work hard and don't have kids before you get married, you will be able to live a good life. This is true for all races. Again, much more difficult if you're coming from a working class background, but in no way is it impossible. The American Dream does not just mean being super rich, it also means being able to live your own life in the way you choose, free from government interference. 5 hours ago, will' said: From what I can tell those countries have laws against racism, so by your earlier arguments couldn’t you just take it as there are some racist people but it’s not really a problem as the law protects people from it? Of course it’s much worse in those places than the US/UK, but I don’t think you can say we’re doing OK because some other countries are worse. Of course they do have such laws, but these are new democracies that haven't had the time to develop as ours and the US's have. Corruption still exists in many structures of government and law enforcement in these countries, especially in Hungary. I think this chart is quite telling (only shows Poland and Hungary) https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/03/14/around-the-world-more-say-immigrants-are-a-strength-than-a-burden/ So while these countries have "Western" law and democracy, attitudes are still a long way behind the West. It could be argued that this makes situations like those @Animal experienced far more common. In addition, as these countries are much more mono-ethnic than the UK or US, victims of racism are, I would argue, more unlikely to find any social or public support, even if the discrimination happens at an institutional level. Latvia, for example, where I live, discriminates openly between citizens and non-citizens. Both of these groups happen to be white (ethnic Latvian and ethnic Russian). For an ethnic Russian to get citizenship, even if they were born in Latvia before 1991, they must pass a language test, a history test and swear allegiance to Latvia. Without citizenship, they are not entitled to work in government positions, not entitled to certain benefits and cannot travel abroad outside the EU, Russia and a handful of other countries. This is systemic racism (maybe discrimination is more apt) in my view as there are quite clearly two systems for two different types of people. And this is in modern day Europe. Is it ignored because the victims of this system are white? Who knows. However, from the other side of the coin, Latvia is a relatively new democracy with an extremely brutal and troubled past where Russian communists occupied the country for almost 50 years. It makes sense for Latvians to protect the interests of the state and to at least try and build a monolithic culture in what is a very small country, which has a sizeable minority population (30%) of a nation which was a former occupier. Ethnic Russians do have the means, funds and support available to them to assimilate if they choose to. Some do, some don't. They have three options: stay here and become citizens and enjoy all the rights afforded to Latvians, remain non-citizens and get by as best they can, or go back to Russia indefinitely, which the vast majority would rather not do as they know life in Russia would be much, much harder. The hard truth though, is that the country openly discriminates against a minority of people. 5 hours ago, will' said: My experience in Japan as a white person was great, I was treated like a VIP by most Japanese people. As a non-Japanese I didn’t always get the same treatment or eligibility for things as I wasn’t entitled to them - that was never related to my race though. I'm pleased that you had this experience, genuinely. We're all on this board because we fell in love with a Japanese titan. It's always been my dream to go there. Unfortunately, I know of other white people who have not been afforded the same luxury. In the early 90s my uncle was not allowed to marry his Japanese girlfriend as her father wouldn't allow it. He left the country permanently soon after having lived there for five years. Anecdotal, yes, but still disgusting. I also wonder how Japanese people treat ethnic Korean or Chinese people, whether they would treat them in the same way they treat a Westerner? Edit: forgot to add the part about statues and history here @will'. I'm in 100% agreement with you there. Edited June 28, 2020 by Nicktendo 2 1
Will Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 I’ll come back on everything else tomorrow, as it’s getting a little late here, but just quickly on this one point. 21 minutes ago, Nicktendo said: So please, hold off on labelling me as a racist, because I most certainly am not. Sorry, I didn’t at all mean to imply that you were a racist here, just that the connection between race and that general thinking put in that way could be seen as such. I didn’t mean to cause any offense by the comment, and certainly don’t think you are a racist - I’ll add more detail when I have time for a fuller response to everything else too.
Nicktendo Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 12 minutes ago, will' said: I’ll come back on everything else tomorrow, as it’s getting a little late here, but just quickly on this one point. Sorry, I didn’t at all mean to imply that you were a racist here, just that the connection between race and that general thinking put in that way could be seen as such. I didn’t mean to cause any offense by the comment, and certainly don’t think you are a racist - I’ll add more detail when I have time for a fuller response to everything else too. No harm done, I should have explained myself more clearly. 2
Beast Posted June 28, 2020 Author Posted June 28, 2020 57 minutes ago, Nicktendo said: I clearly said racism still exists and it does, but that institutional or systematic racism doesn't. I think it can exist but maybe it's not as bad here as it is in other countries. Like I stated, I think "officially" it may not exist using the Equal Opportunities form but being hired to avoid trouble because of your skin colour and to add to the diversity count within a company is another thing and it's not even with white people either. There are people about who truly do not trust others outside of their colour/race and is more seen as a threat and that's honestly kind of terrifying. I think it does exist because you can find other people who will think the same way. Most friends will find something to have in common. I would hang out with mainly geeky people and I would see it as normal. Racists can find the same thing too. When you hear a racist talk, the way they are against you and how they judge you, it's so normal to them. I do think it exists but maybe not as massively as it does in the U.S. 1 hour ago, Nicktendo said: Focusing on ethnicity before anything else, such as ability, ideas and intelligence doesn't seem all to smart to me. Progress is being made, this is undeniable Honestly, this. Like, it's starting to become a thing for me where I feel a little...annoyed? It's great that people are finally wanting to do something but this falls back on what I originally said: I would want to get a job fairly from my "ability, ideas and intelligence" but I don't want to use my skin colour as an advantage because it's not. It just so happens that the colour of my skin is brown. Same can be said for white people. I would want them to get the job fairly judging from their "ability, ideas and intelligence" but I wouldn't want them to use their skin colour as an advantage. I'm not asking people to "not see colour", I'm asking people to not judge me from it and give me extra benefits from it. My skin is not a Morrisons More card. 1 1
Ronnie Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nicktendo said: Focusing on ethnicity before anything else, such as ability, ideas and intelligence doesn't seem all too smart to me. Well said, couldn’t agree more with this in particular, but sadly that doesn’t seem to be the way things have been heading lately. Edited June 28, 2020 by Ronnie 1
killthenet Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 If you don't believe institutional or systemic racism exists then you clearly haven't heard of the Windrush scandal, or read up on stop and search statistics. Systemic racism is still very much a problem in the UK. 5
Goron_3 Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 I must admit that I'm genuinely shocked that I'm seeing people claim that systemic racism doesn't exist. The idea that our society, which was never built to support those from countries which we took over, fundamentally treats everyone equally is quite eye opening, especially given that issues such as Windrush have been so prevalent over the last few years. Granted, our issues are nowhere near as severe as what is occurring over the USA, but we're still a long way of getting to where we need to be. 4
Glen-i Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, Goron_3 said: I must admit that I'm genuinely shocked that I'm seeing people claim that systemic racism doesn't exist. The idea that our society, which was never built to support those from countries which we took over, fundamentally treats everyone equally is quite eye opening, especially given that issues such as Windrush have been so prevalent over the last few years. Granted, our issues are nowhere near as severe as what is occurring over the USA, but we're still a long way of getting to where we need to be. It's really difficult to notice things that don't happen to you. 5
Nicktendo Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, killthenet said: If you don't believe institutional or systemic racism exists then you clearly haven't heard of the Windrush scandal, or read up on stop and search statistics. Systemic racism is still very much a problem in the UK. The stop and search rates per 1000 population line up with the arrest rate per 1000 population. What's racist about that? In fact, they have fallen much closer in line over the past 10 years. Chart #3 - https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest Chart #3 - https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/number-of-arrests/latest I still maintain that police brutality or racism is not represented in statistics, and is instead merely a perception. Windrush was an absolute embarrassment, started by Labour and implemented by the Tories. It aimed to target illegal immigrants and was pitiful both in concept and execution and should never been allowed to happen. It was a fuck up of unbelievable proportions but I disagree that it was systematically racist. The people responsible for it should be punished to the full extent of the law. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-immigration-detention-home-office-leave-uk-become-homeless-romania-brexit-latest-a8025646.html Quote Analysis earlier this month showed that more than 5,000 EU citizens have been removed from the UK between June 2016 and June 2017, a 20 per cent increase on the previous 12 months, though the number has been rising since the Conservatives came to power in 2010. Do you have any specific law you could refer to in the U.K that is systematically racist? Edited June 28, 2020 by Nicktendo
Glen-i Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, Nicktendo said: The stop and search rates per 1000 population line up with the arrest rate per 1000 population. What's racist about that? In fact, they have fallen much closer in line over the past 10 years. Chart #3 - https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest Chart #3 - https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/number-of-arrests/latest Uhhhh... Am I missing something? Because I see a massive gap between the Black catagory and everything else? Especially in the stop and search chart. 2
Goron_3 Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 I just wanted to share the following quote which I saw recently: "Systemic racism in the UK goes beyond policing and the criminal justice system. It is deeply embedded into our education, our housing, our medical care, our immigration policy. The country likes to emphasise its ‘tolerant’ attitude to minorities, expecting applause, and it is almost as if tolerance does not imply begrudgingly putting up with people you would rather not have in your country but cannot avoid. Tolerance does not call for anti-racism." 4
Nicktendo Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Glen-i said: It's really difficult to notice things that don't happen to you. It's not difficult to notice that while racism still exists, it is not systematic. "Lived experiences" are not what a movement should be built on, especially when they have no tangible and quantifiable goals. "End racism" is not a practical idea that can be implement. Practical problems need practical solutions and so far I have seen very few of those. 14 minutes ago, Glen-i said: Uhhhh... Am I missing something? Because I see a massive gap between the Black catagory and everything else? Especially in the stop and search chart. Stop and search for Asian and Black minorities was higher than the arrest rate under the Cameron government. In the past few years, they have both fallen to below the arrest rate and generally have been much more proportional over the past five years, under the arrest rate in fact. So I would hope that this issue, and it certainly was one, has been dealt with. 13 minutes ago, Goron_3 said: I just wanted to share the following quote which I saw recently: "Systemic racism in the UK goes beyond policing and the criminal justice system. It is deeply embedded into our education, our housing, our medical care, our immigration policy. The country likes to emphasise its ‘tolerant’ attitude to minorities, expecting applause, and it is almost as if tolerance does not imply begrudgingly putting up with people you would rather not have in your country but cannot avoid. Tolerance does not call for anti-racism." Where is the racism, at a state level, in any of those things? This is a genuine question, I'm not calling you out. If systematic racism is not identified (like Will's point about Black Britons often receiving harsher sentences), what can be done? Edited June 28, 2020 by Nicktendo
Glen-i Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 10 minutes ago, Nicktendo said: It's not difficult to notice that while racism still exists, it is not systematic. "Lived experiences" are not what a movement should be built on, especially when they have no tangible and quantifiable goals. "End racism" is not a practical idea that can be implement. Practical problems need practical solutions and so far I have seen very few of those. Stop and search for Asian and Black minorities was higher than the arrest rate under the Cameron government. In the past few years, they have both fallen to below the arrest rate and generally have been much more proportional over the past five years, under the arrest rate in fact. So I would hope that this issue, and it certainly was one, has been dealt with. Sure, it's gotten better, but I do not think we are at the point where we can claim that it's not systematic yet. If that was the case, then the chart wouldn't be showing such a major difference. (It even says that Black people are 3 times more likely to be arrested, why is that?) I'm not even going to begin to claim that I know the answer to this, that would be foolish beyond belief. I can't even claim to understand why it happens, but there is clearly a lot of things wrong here. 2
Nicktendo Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) So in response mainly to @will' from my post earlier, I've come up with seven practical steps that I feel would improve day-to-day race relations issues of racism in the U.K. Some of them don't even touch on specifically on race, but in my view would improve things as a by-product. They may not be perfect, but I feel they are reasonable and achievable. I'm open to criticism, but I am 100% certain that any of these steps would be better for everyone than "defund the police" or "destory capitalism". 1) End diversity quotas. Although I’m sure these were much more prevalent under Labour and that they’re mostly gone now, I personally don’t believe they help at all, mainly for the reasons Animal expressed. People should be selected entirely based on their skills. I would even go as far as removing ethnicity from any kind of form as this is an instant way for people to be categorised. A tick in a box does nothing for anyone. We are all British. Citizen / non-citizen would be a much better way of “categorising” people. 2) Re-introduce grammar schools. Expand school choice. Grammar schools were a fantastic tool for social mobility and it’s a damn shame they’ve basically disappeared from the U.K. I’d reintroduce them, specifically in the poorest parts of the country and force them to accept 50% of students from low-income households. Every 11-year-old would be eligible to apply to their closest grammar school and low-income children would be bussed in free-of-charge. If you want the best education, you have to pay for it. As a country, we could do so much more in this field. The teachers in them would have to have a minimum of 10 years of experience and would have been proven to have exceptional teaching abilities in their field. The application process would be tough, and they would be paid more than a state schoolteacher. The schools would also have more academic freedom than state schools and would be allowed to specialise in any STEM subject. Admission would be based on academic ability so the best students from all walks of life would be studying together, rich and poor, white and non-white. The desired effect of this is obviously to increase social mobility among people from poor backgrounds and provide the best education to all students who study there giving them a head start in life. State schools need to have more independence and school selection should no longer be a postcode lottery. I think having schools in an LEA compete with each other for students could be one way to solve this. The choice doesn’t have to be overly expansive. Pit three or four schools in close proximity up against one another and people will quickly start flocking to the best. The same concept needs to be applied to primary schools. Give people a choice and they will choose in their own interest. The bad schools will have to get their act together quicker and offer something more than poor GCSE results. I’d also allow school selection based on faith and encourage faith schools to set up in big cities and accept students of other faiths. My belief is that if they offer a good education (which again would be largely independent from the state schools) people of different faiths would still apply and would be culturally enriched through religious-based teaching that might not be their own faith. The intent of this is to bring greater understanding of other faith / cultures while at the same time encouraging state schools to step up their game. Finally, teachers’ salaries in state schools would be cut by 10% and they would be offered a yearly bonus of up to 20% (increasing to 30% in deprived areas) depending on students’ results. I don’t want to rag on teachers because there are plenty of amazing ones out there, but I think having a financial incentive would quickly show which teachers are putting in the work educating our youth and which ones aren’t. No bonus for 5 consecutive years and it’s time to look for another job. Finally, I would make teacher training for primary and secondary education free of charge provided that person worked in a deprived area for a minimum of three years. 3) Expand the curriculum to teach much more about the British Empire with a focus on minorities who suffered as a result of it. There is a shameful lack of knowledge among white Brits about the British empire. I learned absolutely nothing about it in school and this has to change as a matter of urgency. This issue has certainly come to light recently with the movement to abolish history. I think it’s time Britain more openly acknowledged its crimes during empire and that the perspectives of those directly affected by those crimes are heard. I think it’s of utmost importance to explain why the makeup of our nation is the way it is and the sacrifices of those who perished to make it the once richest country in the world. I would think of this as akin to black history month, but it would take a much more prominent role in history classes. History needs to be remembered to make a better future, and I see this as an extremely important piece in the puzzle of combatting racist attitudes. It should be taught in a way that honours and remembers the victims of Empire and empowers all children to know who they are and where they came from. What may have divided us in the past, whatever suffering millions went through, we are stronger now and, today, Britain is a country which is better for unique ethnic makeup. It’s important to talk about figures from this time, look at them in an objective manner and discuss what was right or wrong and what consequences came of it. Judging history by modern standards will never end well. 4) Overhaul the benefits system and reduce dependence on the state. I admit this is probably a little extreme, but I see it as one of the biggest issues in British society. Far too many people have become dependent on the welfare state and that needs to change if anything is ever going to improve. It creates a cycle of poverty which certainly affects those historically affected by racism disproportionately. I’m absolutely not saying that people should starve, but that the government needs to think of better ways to support single mothers and poor children, regardless of ethnicity. I would do this by using tax credits, food vouchers and as much support as possible for single mothers who work (i.e providing heavily subsidised private childcare or free after school clubs / support for children). Money, of course, should be given to the poor, but the bulk of it should be in voucher form to ensure that is used on buying food, paying bills and supporting children. There should also be a limit to how much someone can receive so that simply having numerous kids doesn’t = more money. It’s time people behaved responsibly. The issue with fathers is a tricky one. On the one hand, I feel that having to pay child support can lead fathers to turn to crime, on the other hand, actions must have consequences. If you have a child and aren’t prepared to support the mother and baby, you deserve to pay in some way. Not taking responsibility for your actions should never be rewarded. Which leads me to my next point. 5) Teach people to take personal responsibility for their actions. Civil education. Another issue I feel may be controversial, but at the same time could have a big impact. It’s time to stop teaching people that everyone is special. It’s time to stop breeding a culture that has slowly become more critical of success and achievement. We need to foster talent and reward those who perform the best. If everybody is special, nobody is a winner. The same idea can be applied to different ethnicities. We are all different, but we are all British, and we can all strive to be the best people we can possibly be within that spectrum. We need a robust civics education in school. Children are not getting prepared for the real world and we need to teach them about law and democracy better than we currently are. We need children to know how to pay tax, why it’s important, how to register to vote, about local politics rather than state politics or political ideologies, how to open a bank account, how to apply for a mortgage, human rights and housing rights. We need people who, when they leave school / college at 16 / 18, are ready to step into the world of work and living. In my view, we are not currently doing this well enough. In addition to civics, we need to focus heavily on personal responsibility. We should show our children that actions have consequences and that just going out and doing whatever you want is not the way to live a successful life. They should be taught to respect other people, other minorities and themselves. We need to do more to teach children about the harm and damage caused by drugs and alcohol and the kind of life it can lead to. We need to teach kids about moderation and that you can’t always get everything you want. Sex education plays a big role here too. Getting someone pregnant at 18 is not doing you, the girl or the baby any favours. It’s imperative that children understand the emotional, financial and life-changing consequences of having children and that doing so before you are mature or ready is basically like giving yourself a life sentence. Honestly, I feel this would probably be the best way to deal with crime and poverty. Not directly, but indirectly. It’s my view that all of this should ideally be taught in the home, but because it isn’t being done, schools need to step in. 6) Stop the media referring to people as Black / Asian / etc. British. If they have citizenship, they are British regardless of skin colour. I really don’t see any need for this. Why do we need to focus on ethnicity when discussing crime or success? I think this needs to be completely removed from the media discourse as it does nothing but play to people’s pre-conceptions of race and ethnicity. Not much else to say here. 7) Put the police back on the streets. Encourage better community co-operation. Proactive, not reactive policing. Finally, tackling perceived systemic racism. The police have slowly been removed from our streets and stuffed into offices. Crime is no longer prevented; it’s dealt with after the fact. PSCOs are a poor half-step in my view. It’s time to get police back into the community, preventing crime and liaising with residents. I’m certain if there was more of a police presence on our streets, crime would go down. People don’t need to fear the police, but they need to be able to see them, they need to be able to talk to them, and they need to know they will not be allowed to get away with criminal behaviour. We need to move away from relying on CCTV and make an effort to prevent crimes before they happen. In fact, CCTV should be drastically reduced as I feel it has very little benefit for the amount it infringes on people’s rights. I’d introduce more police on our streets (I don’t have a number) and would do the same thing I would do with teachers – free training and moderate financial benefits if you choose to work in a deprived area for a minimum of three years. I’d also reorganise PSCOs into officers who work directly with community leaders and aid and assist in tackling potential problems before they arise. A go-between between the police and the community. There needs to be a bit of give and take on both sides and the police needs to be a trusted and respected institution again. Building up trust is critical in tackling a lot of the problems that currently exist in urban Britain, and while this idea might not be perfect, I feel it’s a practical step that could actually garner some positive results. ------------------------------ Explanation of why Black people may face harsher sentencing. Starts at around 13 mins. Edited June 28, 2020 by Nicktendo
Beast Posted June 28, 2020 Author Posted June 28, 2020 2 hours ago, Nicktendo said: 1) End diversity quotas. Although I’m sure these were much more prevalent under Labour and that they’re mostly gone now, I personally don’t believe they help at all, mainly for the reasons Animal expressed. People should be selected entirely based on their skills. I would even go as far as removing ethnicity from any kind of form as this is an instant way for people to be categorised. A tick in a box does nothing for anyone. We are all British. Citizen / non-citizen would be a much better way of “categorising” people. I agree with this but I do think that there may be judgement based on people's names too. I'd like to see this go though. It would be so nice to finally be rid of it and not tick two boxes and be questioned about it. 2 hours ago, Nicktendo said: History needs to be remembered to make a better future, and I see this as an extremely important piece in the puzzle of combatting racist attitudes. It should be taught in a way that honours and remembers the victims of Empire and empowers all children to know who they are and where they came from. What may have divided us in the past, whatever suffering millions went through, we are stronger now and, today, Britain is a country which is better for unique ethnic makeup. It’s important to talk about figures from this time, look at them in an objective manner and discuss what was right or wrong and what consequences came of it. Judging history by modern standards will never end well. I totally agree. I think we shouldn't abolish history at all and we should, in fact, do the exact opposite and tell the good, the bad and the ugly and dissect it. I find that to be far more interesting than to forget it all by scrapping it. We learn more and grow more as people and as a country by doing this. 2 hours ago, Nicktendo said: I admit this is probably a little extreme, but I see it as one of the biggest issues in British society. Far too many people have become dependent on the welfare state and that needs to change if anything is ever going to improve. It creates a cycle of poverty which certainly affects those historically affected by racism disproportionately. I’m absolutely not saying that people should starve, but that the government needs to think of better ways to support single mothers and poor children, regardless of ethnicity. I would do this by using tax credits, food vouchers and as much support as possible for single mothers who work (i.e providing heavily subsidised private childcare or free after school clubs / support for children). Money, of course, should be given to the poor, but the bulk of it should be in voucher form to ensure that is used on buying food, paying bills and supporting children. There should also be a limit to how much someone can receive so that simply having numerous kids doesn’t = more money. It’s time people behaved responsibly. The issue with fathers is a tricky one. On the one hand, I feel that having to pay child support can lead fathers to turn to crime, on the other hand, actions must have consequences. If you have a child and aren’t prepared to support the mother and baby, you deserve to pay in some way. Not taking responsibility for your actions should never be rewarded. Which leads me to my next point. With this one, I'm completely split because of seeing the effects it has. Whilst I do understand absolutely the points you're making, I don't think it's as simple as food vouchers and living on the bare bones of your arse. More would come in to it. The people I know don't like being on welfare systems as it is but also struggle on finding a job whether it's through lack of qualifications or lack of experience, which creates a big problem. Although there are people who are genuinely disabled and rely on disability money to entirely live on. I've never been on benefits but admittedly, nobody would hire me until I lied on my CV and trained myself to be believable. Nobody would hire a guy who sold underwear on a market stall so I pretended to work in a clothes shop. After a couple of attempts, I got the job. The problem isn't so much being dependant (although there are people who are) but just not getting the chance to be hired in the first place. I do disagree entirely with this last paragraph though. Situations happen where the father can't really support their family due to job losses or purely because they don't earn enough, which makes them turn to crime. You could expect a baby and be stable and then suddenly lose your job when you have a baby. I think help should be there when you need it. 2 hours ago, Nicktendo said: Another issue I feel may be controversial, but at the same time could have a big impact. It’s time to stop teaching people that everyone is special. It’s time to stop breeding a culture that has slowly become more critical of success and achievement. We need to foster talent and reward those who perform the best. If everybody is special, nobody is a winner. The same idea can be applied to different ethnicities. We are all different, but we are all British, and we can all strive to be the best people we can possibly be within that spectrum. We need a robust civics education in school. Children are not getting prepared for the real world and we need to teach them about law and democracy better than we currently are. We need children to know how to pay tax, why it’s important, how to register to vote, about local politics rather than state politics or political ideologies, how to open a bank account, how to apply for a mortgage, human rights and housing rights. We need people who, when they leave school / college at 16 / 18, are ready to step into the world of work and living. In my view, we are not currently doing this well enough. In addition to civics, we need to focus heavily on personal responsibility. We should show our children that actions have consequences and that just going out and doing whatever you want is not the way to live a successful life. They should be taught to respect other people, other minorities and themselves. We need to do more to teach children about the harm and damage caused by drugs and alcohol and the kind of life it can lead to. We need to teach kids about moderation and that you can’t always get everything you want. Sex education plays a big role here too. Getting someone pregnant at 18 is not doing you, the girl or the baby any favours. It’s imperative that children understand the emotional, financial and life-changing consequences of having children and that doing so before you are mature or ready is basically like giving yourself a life sentence. Honestly, I feel this would probably be the best way to deal with crime and poverty. Not directly, but indirectly. It’s my view that all of this should ideally be taught in the home, but because it isn’t being done, schools need to step in. I do agree with this. I feel like we need to be taught things like how to pay tax, registering to vote, how to pay bills, fix everyday household things, etc. I believe it would be more useful than doing something you absolutely hate. For me, I never understood Geography at all (mainly learned about volcanos and not about other countries) but I think there should be at least a choice to change one of the lessons that aren't Maths, English or Science for something they don't necessarily click with. I do think that people need to learn how to take responsibility and that things have repercussions, which is something I fear the youth of today don't necessarily understand and think that prison is seen as something cool to add to their reputation. 2 hours ago, Nicktendo said: I really don’t see any need for this. Why do we need to focus on ethnicity when discussing crime or success? I think this needs to be completely removed from the media discourse as it does nothing but play to people’s pre-conceptions of race and ethnicity. Not much else to say here I agree with this too because you don't see newspapers describing a white man as "white". Though I did notice that they seem to do the same for gay people as well 2 hours ago, Nicktendo said: Finally, tackling perceived systemic racism. The police have slowly been removed from our streets and stuffed into offices. Crime is no longer prevented; it’s dealt with after the fact. PSCOs are a poor half-step in my view. It’s time to get police back into the community, preventing crime and liaising with residents. I’m certain if there was more of a police presence on our streets, crime would go down. People don’t need to fear the police, but they need to be able to see them, they need to be able to talk to them, and they need to know they will not be allowed to get away with criminal behaviour. We need to move away from relying on CCTV and make an effort to prevent crimes before they happen. In fact, CCTV should be drastically reduced as I feel it has very little benefit for the amount it infringes on people’s rights. I’d introduce more police on our streets (I don’t have a number) and would do the same thing I would do with teachers – free training and moderate financial benefits if you choose to work in a deprived area for a minimum of three years. I’d also reorganise PSCOs into officers who work directly with community leaders and aid and assist in tackling potential problems before they arise. A go-between between the police and the community. There needs to be a bit of give and take on both sides and the police needs to be a trusted and respected institution again. Building up trust is critical in tackling a lot of the problems that currently exist in urban Britain, and while this idea might not be perfect, I feel it’s a practical step that could actually garner some positive results. I agree with this but with absolute extensive training to make sure they are absolutely correct for the job with no bias. I'm not saying there would be or that there is but the last thing you would need is for this country to end up the way the U.S. has in that respect. The lack of respect for the police right now is bad and youths run riot everywhere, stabbing people, carrying knives, filming abuse on TikTok and Instagram, threatening people, robbing people, etc. A presence from police officers would definitely stop it but right now, I think there's no respect for them. ===== Another thing I would love to add to this discussion to throw it out there is something I've noticed today. Why is it, in the UK, black movies are seen to be hood films where they talk street slang? Blue Story, for instance, is about two rival gangs and features a black-oriented cast. Same goes for films such as Kidulthood, Adulthood, Brotherhood, etc. You never see a black-oriented UK cast doing a comedy or horror film. Recently, the U.S. have done it through Jordan Peele doing Us and Get Out so it's possible. I would love to see more of that because every time I see films relating to gang wars and street crimes, they always seem to mostly have a black cast.
Goron_3 Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 There's a lot to respond to above but I just want to point out that ending diversity quota's implies that there's a meritocracy to hiring people for positions, which unfortunately there isn't. 2
Sheikah Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, Nicktendo said: People who are born middle class have a societal head start over working class people. A black person has gone on to be president and they statistically less chance of being killed by police. The issue is not race. One single black person has gone on to be president but it doesn't mean black people have the same chance to become president. There are so many factors that will prevent many black people from ever even becoming a candidate. Also you are separating race from class when they are fact intertwined. If you are born into a black family you are less likely to even be middle class, and the way it's set up it's almost impossible for black people to be "upper" class aristocracy in this country. You say this country is not institutionally racist when it certainly is. Hereditary peers in the House of Lords for instance, are mostly white and pass on their positions to white children. 8 hours ago, Goron_3 said: I must admit that I'm genuinely shocked that I'm seeing people claim that systemic racism doesn't exist. The idea that our society, which was never built to support those from countries which we took over, fundamentally treats everyone equally is quite eye opening, especially given that issues such as Windrush have been so prevalent over the last few years. Granted, our issues are nowhere near as severe as what is occurring over the USA, but we're still a long way of getting to where we need to be. Have to agree with you here, I was extremely shocked too to see anyone believing that. Mark my words there will be another scandal before long showing just how "dead" institutional racism really is. Edited June 28, 2020 by Sheikah 1
Nicktendo Posted June 29, 2020 Posted June 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Sheikah said: One single black person has gone on to be president but it doesn't mean black people have the same chance to become president. There are so many factors that will prevent many black people from ever even becoming a candidate. Also you are separating race from class when they are fact intertwined. If you are born into a black family you are less likely to even be middle class, and the way it's set up it's almost impossible for black people to be "upper" class aristocracy in this country. You say this country is not institutionally racist when it certainly is. Hereditary peers in the House of Lords for instance, are mostly white and pass on their positions to white children. Have to agree with you here, I was extremely shocked too to see anyone believing that. Mark my words there will be another scandal before long showing just how "dead" institutional racism really is. There have been numerous Black, Asian and Hispanic candidates for the presidency from both the republicans and the democrats. Race and class are often intertwined, but not always. British Indians are the highest earners on average in the U.K. It’s almost impossible for anyone to be upper class aristocracy. The fact it is historically based means it is no surprise that the tide against racism having begun to turn against racism in the 60s, there is almost no minority aristocracy. But almost no doesn’t mean none, like other areas of the U.K., this is changing. The House of Lords is mostly white, but not completely. 6.1% of it made up of minority members Having an emotional reaction to an argument does not mean it is not true. I don’t care if you’re extremely shocked. I am yet to see a clearly defined example of institutional racism in the U.K. Predicting “another scandal” is not an example. It is another emotional response. Provide me an example instead of emotions and we can discuss it like adults. Simply implying I’m wrong isn’t good enough. In a topic this important, some actual evidence would be good.
Will Posted June 29, 2020 Posted June 29, 2020 14 hours ago, Nicktendo said: Quote We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world. We build deep relationships across the diaspora and strategise to challenge the rise of the authoritarian right-wing across the world, from Brazil to Britain. The fact that open Marxists are at the head of this operation has me extremely sceptical about their real intentions, and given the way the past month has gone, I find very little of what BLM has had to say actually have anything to do with improving race relations or the situation of Black people in either the UK or the US. Isn’t the point that capitalism has historically benefited white people who through exploitation of black people in the past now find themselves with a massive head start that can’t be caught up on? In the modern day we see that the wealth gap is growing faster than ever and it certainly benefits the few rather than the many. It also doesn’t seem that the BLM “Group” is one coherent organization, with many splinters of people claiming it - Especially in the UK I think it’s better to see the ideology rather than a particular group who may not represent the whole very well. 14 hours ago, Nicktendo said: So how long should it be and what other methods do you propose we judge this by? Number of BAME people in government? Number of BAME people in high positions? In the Police? In the media? Should it be more than the proportional percentage of population numbers? The same? Is having fewer BAME people in such positions evidence of systematic racism? Focusing on ethnicity before anything else, such as ability, ideas and intelligence doesn't seem all too smart to me. Progress is being made, this is undeniable. Is it too slow? How can we make it faster in a practical way? Changing your behaviour or thinking is far too loose of a method, in my opinion. I could think of some practical solutions, but I'll maybe post them later as I'd need to properly sit down and think about them more deeply. It should have been solved many, many years ago. As it hasn’t been the next best time for this to be dealt with is right now. In terms of judging it I don’t think you need to have numbers or targets by which to judge this, it’s about people of all races and backgrounds feeling completely safe, integrated and having the same opportunities as everyone else. You can’t just have a checklist with things such as “have a race earn more than white people” on it, tick them off and declare the problem solved. 14 hours ago, Nicktendo said: Where did I declare that racism was solved? I clearly said racism still exists, and it does, but that institutional or systematic racism doesn't in America and Britain. Fair enough, but just taking the Wikipedia definition of “Institutional racism (also known as systemic racism) is a form of racism that is embedded as normal practice within society or an organisation.” I’m not sure I agree with you. Having laws to protect against something doesn’t mean that something doesn’t exist. 14 hours ago, Nicktendo said: The American Dream does not just mean being super rich, it also means being able to live your own life in the way you choose, free from government interference. So I think it would still be fair to say it doesn’t exist with this new definition either then. 14 hours ago, Nicktendo said: I'm pleased that you had this experience, genuinely. We're all on this board because we fell in love with a Japanese titan. It's always been my dream to go there. Unfortunately, I know of other white people who have not been afforded the same luxury. In the early 90s my uncle was not allowed to marry his Japanese girlfriend as her father wouldn't allow it. He left the country permanently soon after having lived there for five years. Anecdotal, yes, but still disgusting. I also wonder how Japanese people treat ethnic Korean or Chinese people, whether they would treat them in the same way they treat a Westerner? It’s hard to comment on your uncle’s situation, maybe his girlfriends Father was a massive racist or maybe there was some other reason for him disapproving. In my experience none of the white people I know have had any issues with racism or discrimination from family of partners. I think it’s completely dependent on what you’re doing in the country. As a westerner the “lowest” role you’re likely to be in is that of an English teacher. As a Chinese person you’re far more likely to be taking up a lower manual role and will probably be treated as such. Koreans, in my limited experience, tended to be ex-pats who don’t really need to worry about things like that. 12 hours ago, Nicktendo said: Stop and search for Asian and Black minorities was higher than the arrest rate under the Cameron government. In the past few years, they have both fallen to below the arrest rate and generally have been much more proportional over the past five years, under the arrest rate in fact. So I would hope that this issue, and it certainly was one, has been dealt with. Doesn’t this make a huge assumption that the arrest rates are perfectly impartial? 9 hours ago, Nicktendo said: I've come up with seven practical steps that I feel would improve day-to-day race relations issues of racism in the U.K. Some of them don't even touch on specifically on race, but in my view would improve things as a by-product. They may not be perfect, but I feel they are reasonable and achievable. I'm open to criticism, but I am 100% certain that any of these steps would be better for everyone than "defund the police" or "destory capitalism". I think these are very interesting, to cover each one: 9 hours ago, Nicktendo said: 1) End diversity quotas. I agree with this, but you also have to be sure that the way you test things actually does get you the best set of people for the job. If you’re setting up a diversity commission then a lack of diversity would be a bit of a problem. 9 hours ago, Nicktendo said: 2) Re-introduce grammar schools. Expand school choice. I’m not totally in agreement with the methods but would definitely support an overhaul of the education system. The one area I’d completely disagree on is faith schools. While I think kids should learn about faith I don’t think building schools around them is a good idea. They have a lot of them in Singapore and they tend to become voids of any other opinion attended only by the most committed of the particular faith, which I don’t think is a good result for anyone. 9 hours ago, Nicktendo said: 3) Expand the curriculum to teach much more about the British Empire with a focus on minorities who suffered as a result of it. Sounds good. 9 hours ago, Nicktendo said: 4) Overhaul the benefits system and reduce dependence on the state. Yep, the whole system needs an overhaul and simplification. Personally I think some form of universal basic income that encourages people to get into work would be best, but it’s not something I’ve spent a ton of time looking into. 9 hours ago, Nicktendo said: 5) Teach people to take personal responsibility for their actions. Civil education. Also good. The closest I got to anything like this was a “General Studies” A-Level which was such a joke my school didn’t even teach you the subject, just entered you for the exam. I think a short-form course on how to be a productive and useful member of society would be a very positive thing for everyone. 9 hours ago, Nicktendo said: 6) Stop the media referring to people as Black / Asian / etc. British. If they have citizenship, they are British regardless of skin colour. Agree here too. There is no need to have an unexplained qualifier of race in media depictions of people, especially when you ignore the white one. While I’m very much for open discussion on race, this should not fall under that. 9 hours ago, Nicktendo said: 7) Put the police back on the streets. Encourage better community co-operation. Proactive, not reactive policing. I totally agree with this, but would also say it might be one of the few areas you’d ignore section one - I think these visible police on the street do need to be representative of the communities they’re working in, but not to the point of lacking representation of particular races in wider society. Essentially you want every person to see their own colour, as well as every other colour within this group of people. Overall I think all of your ideas have good merit and would help improve things. It’s a shame politics can’t be this simple in practice. 9 hours ago, Nicktendo said: Explanation of why Black people may face harsher sentencing. Starts at around 13 mins. I will watch this fully when I have a chance, but this part and the start really came across as people with privilege cherry picking some stats to say everything is fine. Don’t take that as my full assessment of the video though. 6 hours ago, Goron_3 said: There's a lot to respond to above but I just want to point out that ending diversity quota's implies that there's a meritocracy to hiring people for positions, which unfortunately there isn't. I agree here, I suppose the ending of diversity quotas is something to aim for as we’ll be in a better world when they’re not needed. 2 hours ago, Nicktendo said: There have been numerous Black, Asian and Hispanic candidates for the presidency from both the republicans and the democrats. I’ll admit my American history is pretty lacking but are you sure that’s true? 1
Rummy Posted June 29, 2020 Posted June 29, 2020 dropping in super quick as this has popped back up on youtube - documentary by daryl davis a legendary blues musician who befriended and managed to obtain the robes of a number of Klansmen, very interesting guy; 1
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