I always pick Princess Peach

[gaggle64]

I think you misunderstand, I'm not saying that Batman is designed to be sexy. Muscles are a power fantasy for some but so are gravity-defying breasts for others. Both are exaggerations of underlying social conventions that run far deeper than fantastical character design; the sex appeal of female characters is intrinsic yet almost incidental.

 

But the point is it's a fantasy for men. Not women, men. I don't think women find it empowering to be resigned to the background in so much popular culture, with tits and ass on display as much as possible. Croft may have some female fans though designed with a male audience in mind - but are those female fans there (assuming they still are) because she's a sex object for men or because she's one of a still very small number of female heroines in video games?

 

In a lot of popular fiction men get to be muscular, well armed, maybe with a face full of gnarly scars and deep in the action. Women get to walk around looking like a stripper in impractical costumes with immaculate makeup, usually in the background. It's not empowerment - if it was, the men would be probably prancing around in speedos & hotpants with hairless skinny bodies and genitals on proud display at every possible moment.

 

The costumes in the recent Batman games are a good example of this: If a waif Batman ran about half-unzipped like Catwoman, would men still want to play the game? Would they still admire the character? How about the Joker standing with hips cocked in Harley's revealing fetish gear? Or even Ivy's crotch plate? What if Batman dressed revealingly but was one of a small number of male heroes in comics & video games? Would that make it more or less tolerable for male comic and game fans?

 

 

Edited December 28, 2011 by gaggle64

[Pit-Jr]

I got a glimpse of a gender neutral society (in an old episode of Star Trek)

and it was terrifying.

 

Embrace your differences!

[Magnus]

It is kind of the same thing, though, at least in terms of physical appearance. Like it or not a lot of women see attractiveness as empowerment. In that sense both sexes are idealised according to their respective exaggerated ideals, as born of social convention; they are portrayed differently but for the same reason.

Well, yes. The issue isn't that men and women are attractive in comics/movies/games (oh, that dreamy Marcus Fenix). The problem is that while Batman gets to skulk around in the shadows and scare people, Catwoman has to show off her breasts and butt.

 

It's like, Miranda and Jacob are both attractive, but the camera only lingers on one of their butts, and only one of them wears a skin-tight outfit.

[Hamishmash]

But the point is it's a fantasy for men. Not women, men. I don't think women find it empowering to be resigned to the background in so much popular culture, with tits and ass on display as much as possible. Croft may have some female fans though designed with a male audience in mind - but are those female fans there (assuming they still are) because she's a sex object for men or because she's one of a still very small number of female heroines in video games?

 

In a lot of popular fiction men get to be muscular, well armed, maybe with a face full of gnarly scars and deep in the action. Women get to walk around looking like a stripper in impractical costumes with immaculate makeup, usually in the background. It's not empowerment - if it was, the men would be probably prancing around in speedos & hotpants with hairless skinny bodies and genitals on proud display at every possible moment.

 

The costumes in the recent Batman games are a good example of this: If a waif Batman ran about half-unzipped like Catwoman, would men still want to play the game? Would they still admire the character? How about the Joker standing with hips cocked in Harley's revealing fetish gear? Or even Ivy's crotch plate? What if Batman dressed revealingly but was one of a small number of male heroes in comics & video games? Would that make it more or less tolerable for male comic and game fans?

 

 

That picture explains this all beautifully.

 

Why are female characters always so nude? Yes, male characters are sometimes shirtless or have their arms bare but never to the degree of characters like Poison Ivy.

 

It also confuses me. I'm gay, so clearly they're not designed with me in mind, but Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn... they're villains. Are we supposed to be threatened or turned on?

 

I remember (and wish I couldn't) this episode of Torchwood with the Cyber-Woman in it.

 

 

Cybermen are logical, cold and emotionless beings that have stripped away their human flesh and transplanted their brains into robot bodies. They explain in a Doctor Who episode "we shall remove class, colour, creed, sex. you shall become identical, you shall become like us."

 

Oh no actually... Cybermen decided it was logical to create a Cyberman with breasts, with most of its skin still there and with high-heels. Because that's what a Cyberwoman looks like.

 

Is this supposed to be menacing? Or sexy? Or what? Am I supposed to be "scared stiff"?

 

It's just so lazy.

[Jonnas]

Lara Croft is an excellent example. She has a very strong female following despite ostensibly being designed to cater to males visually. She appeals to both for different reasons but there is a shared, unrealistic ideal at the heart of it. An ideal that shifts alongside society as whole; the reboot's character design is so much better, which is hopefully a sign of the times.

 

I could never take Lara Croft seriously. Her boobs practically cover her face and guns.

 

I love the new look they're giving her, though, it goes against this infuriating tendency.

 

The problem is that while Batman gets to skulk around in the shadows and scare people, Catwoman has to show off her breasts and butt.

 

I think American comics (Marvel&DC) are the worst offenders when it comes to this. I can't even look at an issue without noticing all the skin-tight boobs and asses in women, and manly muscles in men. I remember first noticing this when I was, what, 8-10 years old.

[Magnus]

I could never take Lara Croft seriously. Her boobs practically cover her face and guns.

The funny thing is that Toby Gard, the creator of Lara Croft, always hated the oversexualization of her. The story goes, he accidentally increased the breast slider too much and the other guys at Core Design made him keep her breasts that way. But that may just be an urban legend.

 

 

I think it's funny when attempts to make women sexy fail. Like this X-Blades cover. While I don't agree with Catwoman showing off her cleavage for no reason, I can at least see the appeal. This is just creepy.

[Hamishmash]

A slightly different kind of cat woman.

 

Click if you dare

 

Felicia is almost everything I hate about everything ever. I don't understand it... is anyone seriously turned on by this skanky, creature woman thing? There's nothing at all sexy about it and I'm creeped out by her existence.

[Aimless]

[stuff]

Clearly I'm failing to convey my point, but I shall try once more by turning to another medium.

 

In broad terms mens magazines promote a worship of the female body and being in better shape than your fellow man. Meanwhile publications aimed at women feature a heavy focus on being the best looking woman in the room and putting down celebrities at every opportunity.

 

When you view comic book designs in this wider context you can see how a female character's ludicrous sexuality can be viewed as empowerment. The societal ideal of a man is to be strong and fit whilst for women it is to be attractive, and the comic book lens turns these things up to 11. Muscle-bound females are a far more niche market, both from a male and female perspective, although potentially the situation could be turned on its head in a few generations.

 

I'm not saying the situation is enviable — as previously noted, I find the style rather exasperating — but I don't think it's going to go away until society as a whole moves on, a natural progression that's happening as we speak.

 

Well, yes. The issue isn't that men and women are attractive in comics/movies/games (oh, that dreamy Marcus Fenix). The problem is that while Batman gets to skulk around in the shadows and scare people, Catwoman has to show off her breasts and butt.

 

It's like, Miranda and Jacob are both attractive, but the camera only lingers on one of their butts, and only one of them wears a skin-tight outfit.

You could argue that such portrayals make sense for characters like Catwoman and Miranda, as both are perfectly happy to use their looks to get the upper hand. I suspect the real reason is less concerned with canonical accuracy, however.

 

I suppose what it comes down to is that I feel people often get bogged down in claims in inequality, when for me gender doesn't really come into it: we're all being treated like idiots and should be asking for better characters across the board.

[Magnus]

Felicia is almost everything I hate about everything ever. I don't understand it... is anyone seriously turned on by this skanky, creature woman thing? There's nothing at all sexy about it and I'm creeped out by her existence.

Welcome to the wonderful world of furrydom.

 

If you're creeped out by that, I don't suggest looking for furry webcomics.

 

 

I suspect the real reason is less concerned with canonical accuracy, however.

Haha, yes.

 

Truthfully, you can write a sexually liberated female character and still make her a strong character. It's just that that's not usually what happens. It's like, it's fine if [random superheroine] likes sex and isn't afraid to use it to get what she wants, but maybe she should make sure her breasts won't accidentally pop out of her unitard while she's fighting bad guys and do we have to look down her cleavage all the time?

 

[Retro_Link]

If a woman dresses provocatively in battle it'll confuse her [male] opponent giving her the upper hand.

[EddieColeslaw]

My thoughts after a quick skim of the thread:

 

Colours are colours. They were not invented with gender in mind. Blue for boys and pink for girls is just easier to market, and easier than making two things in 100000 different colours each labelled with "boy" or "girl". My sister used to refer to "girl colours" and "boy colours", but anyone with sense will stop that kind of thoughtless associative thinking when they grow up.

 

I buy mens clothes because they just look nice. They were designed with men in mind (not fitted, bigger sizes, etc.), but that doesn't mean a woman or a kid or a dog can't wear them. That goes for just about everything...as far as I can think of.

 

Big chests/sexualisation in games/comics/anything: they will stop drawing/designing them like that the day it no longer appeals (to men), including the creators.

[Magnus]

If a woman dresses provocatively in battle it'll confuse her [male] opponent giving her the upper hand.

I would think Batman dressing provocatively would be even more confusing/distracting to his male opponents.

 

 

I've never been the most masculine guy in the world, so I've always hated gender stereotypes. I'm loving the whole brony (My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic) subculture - it appears a universal outlet for guys wanting to express their soft/feminine side has finally emerged.

You like My Little Pony? That's so girl- wait, what.

 

I don't even know anymore.

[Ashley]

I saw a recent example in this Avengers poster:

 

 

 

SORTED!

 

I always pick Yoshi. Make of that what you will.

[Josh64]

I had my own tea set when I was little and would have imaginary tea parties with my dinosaur and power rangers toys so I suppose I was diverse.

 

And I usually pick Birdo (Though Mario Kart 7 doesn't have Birdo, god damn it)

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

You like My Little Pony? That's so girl- wait, what.

 

I don't even know anymore.

 

Well, I'll be ... O_O

[Frank]

Interesting post -- I love it!

 

I thought I'd be the exception here but it seems that most people are identical to me in that they were a child of diversity. I, personally, never had any "girl" toys but I have a sister, so...

I often snuck into her room to play with the toys that she had -- Bratz, Barbies, Baby-Born etc. She was never too impressed. It's funny though because I usually used them for fighting with each other rather than in a tame way. Whatever that means. Although one exception was an Ariel (Disney) doll she had. I'm told I spent hours alone just combing her long red hair.

 

I, myself, was crazy about Wrestling (the WWF/E). All my toys were involved with that and I wasn't much interested in anything else. I had a few neat Action Men though. It was WWF and video-games. Funny -- my toys were also highly sexualised, particularly for the women. They'd all wear skimpy bikinis and tight bras and usually nothing else. If they did wear pants you'd be sure to find a thong somewhere. I could rarely play with anyone but women. They were / are my favourites. I just feel they're so much more interesting and Great. It would be an insult to use a male. Like mentioned before -- the women were usually given an archetype to suit their gender (flexibility, speed, magic) which I, simply, prefer. Sometimes there would be that 1 male character per game which I did radiate towards but compared to the women, numbers are small.

 

In Brawl I am guaranteed to play with Samus , Peach and Zelda. Always.

Sexualisation is fine. Good, even. I don't like to attack others for doing what they wish with their bodies however when it's someone sitting at a desk creating this fictional character -- I see a problem. There is a problem when it's a rule, rather than an exception, to sexualise fictional women.

I don't have an opinion on the blue / pink colour debate.

[chairdriver]

There's a definite homophobia to parenting at a young age. It's as if they dont want to be responsibile for turning their child gay, like it would be all their fault and they would have themselves to blame blah blah blah. Like it makes any difference though - i dont think playing with girls toys or pink stuff will turn a boy gay, or likewise the otherway round for girls, it may make them more in touch with their feminine/male side, but as for sexual preference, i dont think it would decide that.

 

I think you're conflating sexuality and gender. You can be ultra-masculine and gay. It's transphobia more than anything else -- being scared to break outside of rigid gender binary.

 

---

 

At least with Batman it's actually part of the story that he's built and of peak physique. It's not part of the story that Catwoman is a supermodel with "perfectly" shaped breasts/ass -- it's almost assumed that that's what women look like.

Edited December 29, 2011 by chairdriver
Automerged Doublepost

[Emasher]

 

Immediately thought of this.

 

Source: http://www.smbc-comics.com/

[Iun]

 

Some parents are going so far as to not reveal the gender of their babies until they decide when they're older. Is this a good idea, or going too far?

 

(Also, I've changed to Rosalina these days. She's my queen of space. )

 

 

That is going to far. You are physically male or physically female. Psychologically you may be the opposite of your body type, but regardless, you have the characteristics.

 

Is there a changing room for people in the gym who are "undecided"? I don't think so, and I don't think ere should be. Plus, being a little on the bi side, there are occasions when I find my eyes wondering to some of the hotter male dance instructors at the gym. And that wouldn't be possible if they were in with the girls.

 

I always play as a woman in games.

 

It only gets awkward in MMO's when I got chatted up by some Italian guy.

 

:

 

For the win. Always play as girl characters. I'm a guy, so I like walking around in someone else's shoes for a while.

 

If those shoes have three inch heels and a cute little strap, who am I to complain?

 

When I was a child I once bought a set of Lion King figures, strangely they were in the girls section at Toys R Us. Do I win?

 

No, but you get to keep your woofy little Lion King figures and be reminded every day that the last good Disney animated film was Beauty and the Beast, while the Lion King was the cinematic equivalent of a boil-in-the-bag dinner.

[Ramar]

No, but you get to keep your woofy little Lion King figures and be reminded every day that the last good Disney animated film was Beauty and the Beast, while the Lion King was the cinematic equivalent of a boil-in-the-bag dinner.

 

Why you do this... you said you loved me!! :cry:

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

No, but you get to keep your woofy little Lion King figures and be reminded every day that the last good Disney animated film was Beauty and the Beast, while the Lion King was the cinematic equivalent of a boil-in-the-bag dinner.

 

Sometimes I forget why we're archnemeses. Then you say stuff like this, and once again it's painfully obvious to me.

[Hamishmash]

Reasons I dislike Zero Suit Samus #213:

 

The Fan Art

 

Edited December 29, 2011 by Hamishmash

[Marcamillian]

In relation to games, I hate the "women are smaller and quicker" trope. Its just lazy.

 

I've thought for a long time of making a half life mod with the player as a female freeman. All the same abilities. Just as capable of saving the day. The only difference being the way NPC's react to you.

 

Instead of calling to you for help they fruitlessly sacrifice themselves trying to save you. I like the idea of the frustration of KNOWING you could do better but their perception stopping you from saving them.

 

Games are a clear opportunity to let people understand the message without preaching to them. You make the rules! Make them experience the unfairness of gender divides by making biased game mechanics.

 

Attractiveness as an aspiration makes me uncomfortable because it leaves you searching for approval from other people. It only exists in as much as people want to bang you. It seems difficult to develop self worth out of something that depends on other people for feedback.

[gaggle64]

Reasons I dsilike Zero Suit Samus #213:

 

The Fan Art

 

 

This is the Samus Aran I know and love. I refuse to even consider the zero suit canon.

 

"]

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/068/e/7/Warrior__by_spacecoyote.jpg' alt='Warrior__by_spacecoyote.jpg'>

 

[heroicjanitor]

There is loads of fan art like that, I bet I could find some with regular Samus. It's one of the rules of the internet: "If it exists, there is porn of it."