Zelda Hyrule Historia Artbook

[EEVILMURRAY]

What I don't understand is how Link managed to stop Ganondorf at the end of Ocarina as a kid. If memory serves, Zelda makes you run around getting the Spiritual Stones so she can have some proof of Ganon being a dick. By the time you get them she's being chased away.

 

So what I'm assuming happened was Link returns, sees Zelda, goes to The King. The King hears this massive tale from a Kokiri boy he's never met and takes his word for it. Even if they have the Triforces on their hands The King still takes the word of a stranger and not of someone he's known for awhile longer.

 

Zelda: "Daddy! I know you said I needed proof of how Ganondorf is evil"

King: "Yes."

Zelda: "I've got it!"

King: "Go on..."

Zelda: "Look at our hands" *indicates Link and Ganondorf*

King: "Triforce shizzle!"

Zelda: "Tell it link!"

King: "Who's this midget?"

Link: "Alright chief, I went inside this giant tree, a giant fish and a volcano, dawg. I got the Master Sword - technically haven't got it just yet - and went in the future. I became a male Gerudo Member - "

Ganondorf: "The fuck?!"

Link: "Technically not happened just yet mate, chill. That blue flute you gave your daughter, I got that and could warp n' shit. Plus I got this magnifying glass that makes inivisible things visible."

King: "Well I'm fucking convinced. Execute Ganondorf to the Twilight Realm."

[Ike]

Pretty much. Still took then a couple of years to execute him.

 

Wish Twilight Princess explained some of this. Story might have made a bit more sense then. Always did wonder what happened to Ganondorf in Young Link's timeline, just assumed he got sealed as well some how.

 

Sold out on Play Asia now.

[D_prOdigy]

Split timelines in the same universe are a logical inconsistency, so that really bothers me considering I have a philosophy exam on time travel next month.

 

You could remedy that by thinking of the 'split timelines' as possible worlds (or 'alternate universes' as I believe the buzz word is these days) instead, but that might not sit comfortably because you wonder whether that might not make at least two of the 'timelines' seem hypothetical and in some way less real and important than the other.

 

BUT then again, it's all fantasy fiction. I personally love the timeline debates.

[Grazza]

Honestly, I think this timeline thing is getting out of hand. Once upon a time, Nintendo could make a new Zelda game, and all they had to concentrate on was making it awesome. Nowadays, I can't help but think the Zelda series takes its own mythology too seriously. It worked once, for Wind Waker, but since then it hasn't seemed all that genuine to me.

 

The flipside is that I actually love direct sequels, like Majora's Mask. They make sense.

 

But having every Zelda game relate to the series' mythology and timeline means it's less likely we'll get unique, esoteric games like (for instance) Shadow of the Colossus, where a simple premise and bundles of atmosphere go a long way.

 

Just a thought.

[Jonnas]

What I don't understand is how Link managed to stop Ganondorf at the end of Ocarina as a kid. If memory serves, Zelda makes you run around getting the Spiritual Stones so she can have some proof of Ganon being a dick. By the time you get them she's being chased away.

 

So what I'm assuming happened was Link returns, sees Zelda, goes to The King. The King hears this massive tale from a Kokiri boy he's never met and takes his word for it. Even if they have the Triforces on their hands The King still takes the word of a stranger and not of someone he's known for awhile longer.

 

Doesn't the translation (the one actually backed up by scans) explain this? Child Link goes to Zelda, he explains her his story and proves it by showing her the Triforce of Courage. Zelda then secretly gives Link the Ocarina of Time and he leaves Hyrule with it and Epona, while searching for Navi (and then Majora's Mask happens)

 

The King should only be convinced after Ganondorf goes "fuck it" and invades the castle. When he fails to open the door because the Ocarina is missing, he is eventually caught and executed and banished to the Twilight Realm.

 

Honestly, I think this timeline thing is getting out of hand. Once upon a time, Nintendo could make a new Zelda game, and all they had to concentrate on was making it awesome. Nowadays, I can't help but think the Zelda series takes its own mythology too seriously. It worked once, for Wind Waker, but since then it hasn't seemed all that genuine to me.

 

The flipside is that I actually love direct sequels, like Majora's Mask. They make sense.

 

But having every Zelda game relate to the series' mythology and timeline means it's less likely we'll get unique, esoteric games like (for instance) Shadow of the Colossus, where a simple premise and bundles of atmosphere go a long way.

 

Just a thought.

 

The connection between games isn't really needed to enjoy them on their own. In TP, the only serious connection to OoT was Ganondorf himself (which they explain as being an ancient criminal of sorts). PH follows directly from Wind Waker and literally the only serious connection is the fact that Link belongs to a crew of pirates led by Tetra.

My point is, the games can easily be enjoyed by themselves (I think only Wind Waker depends on another game - and not necessarily Ocarina of Time - to be fully enjoyed).

 

Like you say, the timeline talk is best left for outside of the game, as the continuity hints are just that: nods for longtime fans. For example, just before reading that timeline, I never thought the Oracle games could be shoved in between LttP and LA (I would think it would be best left as non-canon), but it actually makes sense. So, why not run with it? It's not necessary to enjoy any of those games, either way, it's just something extra for us nerds.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Honestly, I think this timeline thing is getting out of hand. Once upon a time, Nintendo could make a new Zelda game, and all they had to concentrate on was making it awesome. Nowadays, I can't help but think the Zelda series takes its own mythology too seriously. It worked once, for Wind Waker, but since then it hasn't seemed all that genuine to me.

 

The flipside is that I actually love direct sequels, like Majora's Mask. They make sense.

 

But having every Zelda game relate to the series' mythology and timeline means it's less likely we'll get unique, esoteric games like (for instance) Shadow of the Colossus, where a simple premise and bundles of atmosphere go a long way.

 

Just a thought.

 

Pretty much agree with this.

 

Although, I don't think the games themselves try too hard to sort themselves out into a timeline. It seems to be fans and, at a push, the creators doing this.

 

I guess a timeline does work. But, it's not really essentially. I treat each game as a standalone, unless its a direct sequel. If there are links to other games with names of locations or relating to past events, then that's cool. But, I don't think its necessarily great to try to fit these game into a timeline if it doesn't work.

[EEVILMURRAY]

The King should only be convinced after Ganondorf goes "fuck it" and invades the castle. When he fails to open the door because the Ocarina is missing, he is eventually caught and executed and banished to the Twilight Realm.

Perhaps, but it seemed Ganondorf have any problem invading the castle before. Unless when he started chasing Zelda/Impa some hardcore soldiers from somewhere came, the genius idea of following Link based on some warped logic that he has the key and just before the hardcore soldiers from somewhere arrived to arrest his ass, he'd just escaped into the Sacred Realm to avoid capture.

 

I'm not even sure why I'm coming up with all these genius explanations :s I normally just consider each Zelda game a standalone title, like Final Fantasy (unless they specifically say they follow another [Majora's Mask/Whatever Oracle title you play second])

 

 

But we're all forgetting one important game series which needs a concrete established timeline: Mario Kart, the various versions of Peach's Castle need firmly explaining.

[Jonnas]

Perhaps, but it seemed Ganondorf have any problem invading the castle before. Unless when he started chasing Zelda/Impa some hardcore soldiers from somewhere came, the genius idea of following Link based on some warped logic that he has the key and just before the hardcore soldiers from somewhere arrived to arrest his ass, he'd just escaped into the Sacred Realm to avoid capture.

 

In what we see in OoT, I always thought Ganondorf knew from the beginning what Link and Zelda were doing, and assumed Link had the ocarina (along with the stones) all along. That's why he followed him. [/theory]

 

In this other timeline where Link simply disappeared with the Ocarina, things went differently, of course, and since we are never given any details, we can assume that Ganondorf was found and captured in some sort of bitchin', awesome way.

(Example: After retrieving the stones via all the threats and blackmail, he stormed the castle in search for the ocarina. He never found it, but managed to kill, say, 150 soldiers by himself before his sword broke. He then killed 50 more with his bare hands and feet before those broke as well.) [/plausible theory]

 

Details not being confirmed and us filling the blanks is what makes it fun, though.

[EEVILMURRAY]

In what we see in OoT, I always thought Ganondorf knew from the beginning what Link and Zelda were doing, and assumed Link had the ocarina (along with the stones) all along. That's why he followed him. [/theory]

He must've gone for a quick run before then, because after you get the stones and you relive your dream from the beginning, Ganondorf runs off after Zelda.

[Jonnas]

He must've gone for a quick run before then, because after you get the stones and you relive your dream from the beginning, Ganondorf runs off after Zelda.

 

...

 

Well...

 

He was...

 

...hiding...

 

...yeah, behind a tree...

 

With his horse...

 

...his ninja horse...

 

...yeah...

 

...

 

*shrug*

(Or maybe it was a spy who tipped him off, or something, I d'know, details)

[EEVILMURRAY]

Probably Phantom Ganon.

[Hamishmash]

The "Failure Timeline" is essentially what happens to Hyrule when Link is imprisoned for 7 years. If you look at it a certain way, him being awakened as an adult actually changes history. Link to the Past says 7 sages eventually imprisoned Ganondorf in an Imprisoning War. I imagine that is the war that occurs when the Hero of Time is not found. The people of Hyrule eventually revolt.

 

Does that make this make any more sense?

 

EDIT: It could also occur when in OOT you need to GO BACK in time to be Young Link again to get the Lens of Truth, effectively giving up, and creating a time line where Link wasn't there.

 

It's timey whimey but it does sort of work.

[EEVILMURRAY]

EDIT: It could also occur when in OOT you need to GO BACK in time to be Young Link again to get the Lens of Truth, effectively giving up, and creating a time line where Link wasn't there.

 

It's timey whimey but it does sort of work.

Only if you go into the future again. Since you're going back to "the beginning" you're creating a new future, so Link wouldn't be "giving up" as he's changing the later situation.

 

See Back To The Future II for details.

[Fused King]

Damn, and I thought I'd played enough Zelda to sort-of understand how it all fits together, and now you guys start throwing around more theories than I could shake my traditional Dutch hat at.....

 

I hope all will be revealed when I start playing Skyward Sword in a few days.

 

So bloody hyped!

[Hamishmash]

Only if you go into the future again. Since you're going back to "the beginning" you're creating a new future, so Link wouldn't be "giving up" as he's changing the later situation.

 

See Back To The Future II for details.

 

But I see it as the Failure Timeline instantly occurs when Link is taken to the Sacred Realm, he no longer exists in Hyrule. And the same thing happens whenever he is in there, there is a Hyrule existing when Link never came to stop Ganondorf.

 

I did this post on my blog. Some people have said it helps them understand it. And while I truly believe Back to the Future is the greatest time travel fiction ever, I do think we're playing with slightly different rules here.

 

The Zelda Timeline

BASICALLY

 

In Ocarina of Time, Hyrule has 3 outcomes. It’s a Moffatian-esque timey-whimey tale of parallel universes.

 

Childhood Timeline

This is what we see in the game. Link saves Hyrule and Zelda sends Link back in order to relive his childhood properly, but Ganondorf is therefore captured before he can do any of his naughtiness. Link goes off and has his adventures with Majora’s Mask.

 

Adult Timeline

This is essentially what happens to that Hyrule BEFORE Link is sent back to be a child. This is the Hyrule which recovers from Ganondorf’s invasion, rather than the invasion never happening. And then Hyrule is flooded and we get The Wind Waker.

 

And today we finally got the truth. There is a third timeline.

 

Failure Timeline

 

This is the reality in which Link is never released from the Sacred Realm. We know he did, but seeing as that Realm is separate from Hyrule, we are led to believe that by Link being brought back to Hyrule, he is essentially changing the history playing out while he is there. This timeline also occurs when Link goes back to being a child to get the Lens of Truth and complete other tasks… it is the Hyrule never saved.

 

A Link to the Past states that there was an Imprisoning War led by 7 sages. This is what happens when Link is never awoken, or goes back to childhood before defeating Ganondorf - the people of Hyrule revolt and imprison Ganondorf.

 

It seems strange at first… but… now we know.

 

[EEVILMURRAY]

But I see it as the Failure Timeline instantly occurs when Link is taken to the Sacred Realm, he no longer exists in Hyrule. And the same thing happens whenever he is in there, there is a Hyrule existing when Link never came to stop Ganondorf.

Does this happen with all time-travel things for you? Since were you to travel in time inbetween the two points you wouldn't exist. Say I sent my dog Einstein one minute into the future, he wouldn't exist for 60 seconds for me. But the trip for him would've been instantaneous.

 

I see your timeline theory, and if I'm interpreting it correctly the failure timeline is erased by the child timeline:

"he is essentially changing the history playing out while he is there"

You make it sound as if there can't be two Links in the same timeline. It can be possible that one can do stuff whilst another does something else. Imagine you're on a stage singing Johnny B. Goode, some people are backstage waiting to beat you up. Your other, more future self can assist you by dropping some bags on their heads.

[Retro_Link]

What?...

 

I thought Wind Waker was always said to carry on from the Young Link timeline, the flood being a result of him not appearing because he's off on his travels in MM etc...?

[Fused King]

What?...

 

I thought Wind Waker was always said to carry on from the Young Link timeline, the flood being a result of him not appearing because he's off on his travels in MM etc...?

 

Damn, NHK needs to sit down with Miyamoto and let him tell THE WORLD what he had in mind when he created the LEGEND of Zelda.

[Hamishmash]

Does this happen with all time-travel things for you? Since were you to travel in time inbetween the two points you wouldn't exist. Say I sent my dog Einstein one minute into the future, he wouldn't exist for 60 seconds for me. But the trip for him would've been instantaneous.

 

I see your timeline theory, and if I'm interpreting it correctly the failure timeline is erased by the child timeline:

"he is essentially changing the history playing out while he is there"

You make it sound as if there can't be two Links in the same timeline. It can be possible that one can do stuff whilst another does something else. Imagine you're on a stage singing Johnny B. Goode, some people are backstage waiting to beat you up. Your other, more future self can assist you by dropping some bags on their heads.

 

The Failure Timeline only exists for like... split seconds. I think the only actual timeline is the one that leads on into Majora's Mask... but that the other two are just parallel, alternate ones which are made so we can enjoy Zelda games with far-out concepts, still be sort of in canon, but don't really effect anything. If this is official, it's official. While I might not agree with it, I'm gonna try my hardest to work out how it works.

 

The Failure Timeline is just the timeline that WILL happen if you don't kill Ganondorf. It's the timeline you're trying to prevent, but it is a timeline none-the-less.

[Ronnie]

Hamishmash, good post.

 

I think the only actual timeline is the one that leads on into Majora's Mask... but that the other two are just parallel, alternate ones which are made so we can enjoy Zelda games with far-out concepts, still be sort of in canon, but don't really effect anything.

 

Yep that makes a lot of sense too, after all, wouldn't there be an infinite number of timelines? There's the main one, OOT > MM > TP and two alternate ones that give us a look at how things would have turned out IF... etc etc

 

What?...

 

I thought Wind Waker was always said to carry on from the Young Link timeline, the flood being a result of him not appearing because he's off on his travels in MM etc...?

 

Not sure where you got that from, plus isn't Link only gone a few days/weeks in Majora's Mask?

 

Twilight Princess follows on from the Young Link timeline because Ganondorf is sent to the Twilight Realm, whilst Link is playing out Majora's Mask.

 

The events of Wind Waker occur because there's no hero to stop the Great Evil taking over, as he's beensent back in time.

 

It's a little convenient how they chuck all the older Zeldas onto a third timeline, but oh well. Three timelines give Nintendo a lot more freedom for future games anyway.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Ronnie

[Retro_Link]

Twilight Princess follows on from the Young Link timeline because Ganondorf is sent to the Twilight Realm, whilst Link is playing out Majora's Mask.

 

The events of Wind Waker occur because there's no hero to stop the Great Evil taking over, as he's beensent back in time.

Ah right yeah.

 

Although they don't send Ganondorf to the Twilight Realm straight away after OOT do they... I thought it was some time later... meaning either way MM would be over.

 

It's just that we don't know where Link goes after MM... but not back to Hyrule it would seem.

[Jonnas]

For the record, different works use different rules for time travel. Some (like Back to the Future) use a single line that changes whenever a time traveler changes anything, others use a single line where time travelers were always accounted for and can't create paradoxes (they'll end up causing the events they were trying to prevent, etc), and then there are those where changing something in the past actually causes an alternate timeline/parallel universe to exist (I know Dragonball used this to explain all of their time travelling shenanigans, but I think Marvel does this as well?)

 

Zelda basically uses a mix of everything, depending on the game we're talking about But Ocarina of Time itself uses the "Alternate Timeline" theory.

 

That said, it's easy to see why is there a "Child" timeline (the one we see in the very last shot of OoT, leading to MM and TP) and an "Adult" timeline (the one where everyone is celebrating and dancing at Lon Lon Ranch, that leads to WW).

 

Why the "Link failed" timeline exists, we don't know. The supposed "leaker" didn't say why, nor did he give details. What Hamish is saying about the Sacred Realm itself causing this timeline to exist is just a theory. Plausible, but just that.

 

What?...

 

I thought Wind Waker was always said to carry on from the Young Link timeline, the flood being a result of him not appearing because he's off on his travels in MM etc...?

 

I don't know when we accepted it as such (I think someone said it, Aonuma, maybe?), but we've known that part for a while, now. Child Link warning Zelda leads into Twilight Princess, while Adult Link being essentially erased from existence leads to Wind Waker.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Jonnas

[Retro_Link]

Yeah I think I just got confused for a minute amongst all this timeline talk.

[Ronnie]

Ah right yeah.

 

Although they don't send Ganondorf to the Twilight Realm straight away after OOT do they... I thought it was some time later... meaning either way MM would be over.

 

I don't see why they wouldn't send him there straight away. It doesn't conflict with Majora's Mask. They apprehend him, sentence him etc and then exile him. Probably shortly after Link returns to the past. The fact that he doesn't have any recollection of a green-clad hero in Twilight Princess probably means it happened whilst Link was out looking for Navi, so they never actually met.

 

It's just that we don't know where Link goes after MM... but not back to Hyrule it would seem.

 

Link did go back to Hyrule after MM, it's just that the rest of his life wasn't shown in a game. It was only years later that Ganondorf broke out of the Twilight Realm, and by then there was a new Link.

[Dante]

This will help with the confusing OOT timelines: