Mafia Guidelines/rules

[jayseven]

Well it's not unspoken if you speak about it, is it?

[Rummy]

The thing is if you have to paraphrase a PM (since you're not allowed to quote it directly), you have to think of a different way to say things. Basically it means you have to think carefully about how you word things, which is what this entire game is about.

 

I often spend a long time wondering how I'm going to give out my information, or how I'm going to ask certain questions so they won't be misinterpreted etc. I think it can add an extra layer to the game. If we would all just copy and paste our information into the thread, it would remove quite a bit of the thinking process. It's more fun to have to think about what exactly you're going to say. =)

 

I still disagree, because PMs from the GM are totally unverifyable unless by powers, are they not? Here's also the problem I see with the 'paraphrasing'.

 

I get a PM that says 'A targetted B'. Now if I'm not allowed to quote a PM, does it mean I'm not allowed to say 'A targetted B' and must somehow paraphrase that? Or does it mean I'm not allowed to wrap quote tags around it and can still say in plaintext 'A targetted B'. If I'm not allowed to quote the PM, but A targetted B, does that mean I get punished for pointing out the information that simply, A targetted B? If i get punished for accurate/correct information, then I shouldn't for wrong information, doesn't that then mean it's verifyable whether I'm telling truths or lies due to punishment recieved from the GM? Similarly, what happens if I put quotes around a false PM, and go unpunished as I didn't actually quote a PM. However, if I put quotes around a legitimate PM and get punished, you know my information is verified as accurate.

 

However, if we can 'quote' the GM, then I see no problem because we play a game where it's all about lies, deception and information verifying. So a quote, like anything else, is known not to be trusted and causes none of the problems above. There is, as far as I can tell, absolutely no way to verify a PM or private information from a GM unless built into the game mechanic already, in which case it's accounted for.

 

 

I think it needs to be clearly defined what is and is not allowable in games either in roles or the game's blanket rules in the first post of the game.

[Sméagol]

It's not about putting quote tags around something, it's the simpel act of without thinking about, hitting "quote" and post info from the mod in the gamethread. You should use your own words. Obviously, when you get a PM simply stating "A targeted B", then there's no way to state that differently and easier, but that still doesn't mean you just should go and quote that.

It also depends on the mod. Some may keep their PM's simple, others don't. Another example would be the PM's Jonnas sends players in his Gentlemen's mafia.

 

And then it's just a matter of principle. Mods shouldn't be part of the discussion. If you directly quote a mod, then it's about if the mod's info is correct / incorrect / useful / not useful. People shouldn't be questioning info from the mod, they should be questioning infor from the player. A mod shouldn't be involved in the discussion.

[Nintendohnut]

Yes, I think the point is that if you directly quote a PM (regardless of whether it is a real quote or a lie) that quote holds more value because you are saying it has come directly from the GM. Obviously we shouldn't be trusting each other in games, but you are meant to trust the GM in most games (Rez's recent pokemafia was a rare exception, but in that situation he said clearly that you shouldn't trust anyone at all).

 

For example, if someone put in a thread 'I got information that A targeted B in a PM' that, to me, would be something I could question as a player. If someone put

 

Here is my PM:

Posted By: GM

A targeted B last night

 

I would just assume that is accurate, because it came straight from the GM. Don't ask me why, but in my head I would think 'well, if the GM said it, it must be true'. It goes back to my point about not trusting anyone except the GM in a game; if it's a quote, it means it hasn't be altered by definition.

 

Basically I think the rule should stay. You cannot quote your PM directly, however you can use reported speech (e.g. the GM told me that A targeted B in a PM). If you use quote marks about a PM (whether it's a real quote or an altered/fake quote - it should all be punished). It just takes that confusion over trusting the GM out of the game.

[heroicjanitor]

I think the style of the mod is important here too. In the Gentlemen's Mafia Jonnas style is very distinct, so if you quote one of his pms you could tell it is either the real thing, or a brilliant forgery. The more difficult the style of the mod is to replicate the less I like quoting pms.

 

I don't mind "quoting" a GM who just says "Nobody targeted you" or something like that, you could make that up pretty easily.

[Tales]

Even if you shouldn't trust the GM, it's easy to forget that. When someone in the Gentlemen mafia quoted a PM I didn't question it at all and assumed it had to be true. If they just write out with their own words you wouldn't trust them that much. So I think you shouldn't be allowed to quote the GM directly.

[The Peeps]

Even if you shouldn't trust the GM, it's easy to forget that. When someone in the Gentlemen mafia quoted a PM I didn't question it at all and assumed it had to be true. If they just write out with their own words you wouldn't trust them that much. So I think you shouldn't be allowed to quote the GM directly.

 

I think that's the argument against though. You shouldn't assume it to be true just because it appears to be a quote from the GM.

 

I didn't think it was too much of a big deal at first but I've been swayed by the discussion and I don't think it's a good idea to be able to quote PMs - even if you're lying. Of course, GMs can make their own rules essentially but the default should be that it isn't allowed.

[Diageo]

I think that instead of changing the rules people should just change their mindset. If someone quotes a PM, or quotes anything, it is easily forge-able. Trusting it as a direct quote seem foolish, and saying "I automatically think it is true, because I just do" does not seem like a good reason to me.

 

If someone quotes the PM, you don't have to question the GM, you can easily say, "You made that up."

[Eenuh]

Or we can just stick to the original rule that PM's shouldn't be quoted. Why make things more complicated by having different rules for different games? Just stick to the general set of rules, and if needed add a few if the game needs it.

[Nintendohnut]

I think that instead of changing the rules people should just change their mindset. If someone quotes a PM, or quotes anything, it is easily forge-able. Trusting it as a direct quote seem foolish, and saying "I automatically think it is true, because I just do" does not seem like a good reason to me.

 

If someone quotes the PM, you don't have to question the GM, you can easily say, "You made that up."

 

Or we could stick with the rule of not being allowed to quote PMs directly and save the hassle of discussing it.

 

And anyway, we're not saying 'we trust it, just because we do'. What we're saying is that the GM is a person who is supposed to be trusted in a game. Other players are not. If a player quotes the GM it gives the impression of truth in many people's minds (as Tales just agreed with me) and that shouldn't be allowed. The player's job is to convince people they are telling the truth, not just post something that most people would simply take at face value because it is a quote from a PM.

 

In the end, isn't it just as easy to type out 'A targeted B according to my pm' as it is to go to your PM, click quote, copy the text, go into the thread and paste it? It shouldn't really be an issue.

[Sméagol]

[..] If someone quotes a PM, or quotes anything, it is easily forge-able. Trusting it as a direct quote seem foolish, and saying "I automatically think it is true, because I just do" does not seem like a good reason to me.[..]

The thing is, what I've been trying to say, it depends on the mod, and the complexity of the game. It won't be always easily forgeable.

 

Think of it the other way around.

It is one thing to "quote" for example a role PM, and make some convenient "adjustments", but for some mods, it will be very, very hard to just make up a complete role in the same style the mod would do.

And sometimes, as a mafia member, you can't get away with just a few adjustments or a twisting of the truth, you need to come with blatant lies. What if people go asking you to quote the private messages you got? If it is allowed, it's fair game for people to ask you about the PM's you got. If you have to make something up from scratch, it will be very easy to make mistakes. This will make it harder for anyone who needs to lie.

[Nintendohnut]

Or we can just stick to the original rule that PM's shouldn't be quoted.

 

Or we could stick with the rule of not being allowed to quote PMs directly and save the hassle of discussing it.

 

Lollerskates

[Eenuh]

Great minds and all that, right? =P

[Diageo]

Sméagol's argument made sense to me. I agree now.

[Rummy]

Whether I put a quote around it or not, all the info is coming from me the player when it could have, like anything else in the game, originally have come from the GM. I don't understand how you can change your mindset so much in a mafia game to believe something simply cos I throw it in quote tags and say its from the GM, I can give you my role/power/character/alignment and I'm saying it's from the GM anyhow. How can you not question info I'm providing just because I say it's from the GM? Aren't mafia games built largely on the mechanic of deceit? I'm amazed how people find it different to anything else presented in the game, and given I'd never heard of it before I did it, wondered if maybe it was a silly old rule that's never been questioned, because I don't see any problem with it.

 

Me quoting a PM btw, isn't making the GM a matter of the discussion. Also, I didn't just 'hit quote' and post info from the mod in the game thread, NOR did I label any quotes directly with a name such as the way of 'Originally posted by...'

 

As for saying this stuff about the GM should be trusted in a game etcetc, I'm amazed then that more people weren't shocked by ReZ's doing in the Pokemafia, which I mildly didn't agree with, but then again I saw it coming so I guess I couldn't hate it too much.

[Diageo]

The thing is, what I've been trying to say, it depends on the mod, and the complexity of the game. It won't be always easily forgeable.

 

Think of it the other way around.

It is one thing to "quote" for example a role PM, and make some convenient "adjustments", but for some mods, it will be very, very hard to just make up a complete role in the same style the mod would do.

And sometimes, as a mafia member, you can't get away with just a few adjustments or a twisting of the truth, you need to come with blatant lies. What if people go asking you to quote the private messages you got? If it is allowed, it's fair game for people to ask you about the PM's you got. If you have to make something up from scratch, it will be very easy to make mistakes. This will make it harder for anyone who needs to lie.

I think Sméagol has a point here, people would abuse it saying, quote your power PM

[ReZourceman]

Whether I put a quote around it or not, all the info is coming from me the player when it could have, like anything else in the game, originally have come from the GM. I don't understand how you can change your mindset so much in a mafia game to believe something simply cos I throw it in quote tags and say its from the GM, I can give you my role/power/character/alignment and I'm saying it's from the GM anyhow. How can you not question info I'm providing just because I say it's from the GM? Aren't mafia games built largely on the mechanic of deceit? I'm amazed how people find it different to anything else presented in the game, and given I'd never heard of it before I did it, wondered if maybe it was a silly old rule that's never been questioned, because I don't see any problem with it.

 

Me quoting a PM btw, isn't making the GM a matter of the discussion. Also, I didn't just 'hit quote' and post info from the mod in the game thread, NOR did I label any quotes directly with a name such as the way of 'Originally posted by...'

 

As for saying this stuff about the GM should be trusted in a game etcetc, I'm amazed then that more people weren't shocked by ReZ's doing in the Pokemafia, which I mildly didn't agree with, but then again I saw it coming so I guess I couldn't hate it too much.

I completely agree with all of this. I mean...I understand the argument against it but honestly if you're not articulate enough to re-produce a PM (assuming you are mafia) in the style of the game you're playing...I mean come on its not that hard. I'll personally be allowing it in all my games, just because its in quote tags doesn't mean the people reading it should act like retards.

 

Even the last bit (I mean...you did call it on page 2, and it was in the rules. )

[Jonnas]

I completely agree with all of this. I mean...I understand the argument against it but honestly if you're not articulate enough to re-produce a PM (assuming you are mafia) in the style of the game you're playing...I mean come on its not that hard. I'll personally be allowing it in all my games, just because its in quote tags doesn't mean the people reading it should act like retards.

 

Even the last bit (I mean...you did call it on page 2, and it was in the rules. )

 

Speak for yourself. I could never replicate Jayseven's style, no matter how much I tried.

[Cube]

If you're accepting PM quotes, then you'll need to give the mafia an example town PM. Otherwise they would have no chance.