General Switch Discussion

[Sheikah]

Good to see it's there, but it's crazy it has taken this long and it's still not supported by most games it seems. You still can't send messages to your friends either, right?

[Glen-i]

14 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

Good to see it's there, but it's crazy it has taken this long and it's still not supported by most games it seems. You still can't send messages to your friends either, right?

The feature only just got added, I wouldn't be surprised if bigger online games like Smash and Mario Kart got it patched in.

[S.C.G]

  N-Eaction:  Nintendo's Mobile Strategy 

With the recent announcement of Season Passes for Mario Kart Tour and Animal Crossing Pocket Camp we thought it was time to talk about Nintendo's Mobile Strategy.

In it we look at the mobile titles which have been released thus far, what we think of their monetisation models, what we like or dislike about them and what could be improved.

Thanks to @Glen-i & @Vileplume2000 for their contributions and @RedShell for making the perfect graphic to with the subject matter.

Enjoy and let us know what you think about Nintendo's Mobile Strategy, what you like or dislike about it and maybe some hopes for future titles...

...or is it too late and have Nintendo allowed themselves and their mobile development partners to go too far down the slippery slope of making bells above all else?

[Hero-of-Time]

18 hours ago, S.C.G said:

Enjoy and let us know what you think about Nintendo's Mobile Strategy, what you like or dislike about it and maybe some hopes for future titles...

...or is it too late and have Nintendo allowed themselves and their mobile development partners to go too far down the slippery slope of making bells above all else?

I hate it and I think much less of Nintendo now than I have ever done. I honestly think the ship has sailed for them to back out of the market. They've embraced the scummy practices and there's no turning back now.

I don't think shareholder pressure has much too do with the direction Nintendo have taken and it's more to do with the changing of the guard. For years Iwata pushed back when shareholders wanted Nintendo to invest heavily in the mobile market. Yes, eventually Nintendo did dip their toe into the pond but that's all it was. Miitomo was a quirky Nintendo type experience and Super Mario Run didn't really feature any predatory mechanics. Fast forward to today and what Nintendo are now doing is no different to what any other company who are chasing the money made from mobile gaming is doing. It's no coincidence that things like season passes and gacha mechanics are being pushed heavily now that Iwata is out of the picture. Shuntaro Furukawa is much more of a business/corporate man and this certainly shows with the directions that Nintendo have taken with their mobile and merchandising initiatives.

Making these types of games has also had a detrimental effect on Nintendo's own Switch software, IMO. A quick look at who developed the mobile games shows that key people/teams that usually develop for Nintendo's consoles have been pulled away to work of certain mobile games. EPD have been tasked a few times now to make these mobile games, which is a sad state of affairs given that they could be creating games more games for the Switch instead, especially when you consider that Nintendo are relying heavily on partners to create exclusive games for them, rather than making them themselves. EPD could have easily been given the job of creating Mario Kart 9 for the Switch but instead Switch owners have been left playing a Wii U port, while the mobile market has been given a new Mario Kart that features constant updates. Again, such updates could have easily been made for Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, making it a much better proposition for those who had already bought it on the Wii U.

The less said about Animal Crossing Pocket Camp and Fire Emblem Heroes the better.

 

[Ronnie]

It's hard to argue that the Switch software line-up is struggling when they've just released 6 or 7 big first or "second" party games in the past 6 months. Now obviously we'll see how things go next year and if they can keep it up, but this year at least the Switch software output has been insane. 

I also can't imagine the bulk of the ARMS/MK8 EPD team are hard at work on MK:Tour. Creatively sure but the actual mobile development will have been left to DeNA, with Bandai Namco helping too. I think the reason we haven't seen MK9 is because frankly, MK8 is still selling. Once that slows down, they'll put out a new game. They're probably working on it as we speak, or an ARMS sequel, who knows. 

As for the monetisation, I completely agree but I don't think you should dismiss the shareholder aspect so easily. It's probably not the best idea for new Nintendo Presidents to rock the boat so much when they first come in and throwing shareholders a bone when it come to mobile gaming probably smoothed the transition for them.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Ronnie

[Hero-of-Time]

3 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

As for the monetisation, I completely agree but I don't think you should dismiss the shareholder aspect so easily. It's probably not the best idea for new Nintendo Presidents to rock the boat so much when they first come in and throwing shareholders a bone when it come to mobile gaming probably smoothed the transition for them.

It's more than a bone. They've pretty much gone all in at this point and there's no going back now that they've shown just how much money can be made by using the exploitation tactics that the mobile market laps up. 

[Dcubed]

16 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

It's more than a bone. They've pretty much gone all in at this point and there's no going back now that they've shown just how much money can be made by using the exploitation tactics that the mobile market laps up. 

Yup, Furukawa has completely abandoned Iwata’s plan to use mobile as a means of advertising Nintendo IP and converting mobile players to Nintendo platforms.

 

The moment that Nintendo signed a deal with CyGames to co-develop and publish Dragalia Lost (a completely original IP) was the moment it became clear that Furukawa had no intention of following through with any of Iwata’s plans.

 

Now the majority of Nintendo EPD are working on supporting current and upcoming mobile titles; and the company has gone all in on gacha/Skinner box gambling for mobile.

 

While their current diversification is long overdue for the company (and should’ve happened well over a decade ago); it does mean that they’re moving away from their reliance on traditional dedicated gaming hardware.

 

Very very sad... Let’s just pray that they don’t end up in another Wii U situation again, or else it’s Game Over for traditional Nintendo titles and hardware platforms for good...

Edited November 28, 2019 by Dcubed

[Ronnie]

6 hours ago, Dcubed said:

Now the majority of Nintendo EPD are working on supporting current and upcoming mobile titles; and the company has gone all in on gacha/Skinner box gambling for mobile.

 

While their current diversification is long overdue for the company (and should’ve happened well over a decade ago); it does mean that they’re moving away from their reliance on traditional dedicated gaming hardware.

 

Very very sad... Let’s just pray that they don’t end up in another Wii U situation again, or else it’s Game Over for traditional Nintendo titles and hardware platforms for good...

What are you talking about?

Yoshi, Labo VR, Ring Fit Adventure, Tetris 99, Mario Maker 2, Fire Emblem, Astral Chain, Link's Awakening, Luigi's Mansion, Pokemon, all in the past eight months.

Animal Crossing, BOTW 2, likely a Mario Odyssey sequel, Bayonetta 3, Metroid Prime 4 on the way.  

In no world is that "moving away from their reliance on traditional gaming", and it's as far away from the Wii U's software situation as possible. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Ronnie

[Nicktendo]

More than half of those games are second party, not in-house. 

[Dcubed]

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

What are you talking about?

Yoshi, Labo VR, Ring Fit Adventure, Tetris 99, Mario Maker 2, Fire Emblem, Astral Chain, Link's Awakening, Luigi's Mansion, Pokemon, all in the past eight months.

Animal Crossing, BOTW 2, likely a Mario Odyssey sequel, Bayonetta 3, Metroid Prime 4 on the way.  

In no world is that "moving away from their reliance on traditional gaming", and it's as far away from the Wii U's software situation as possible. 

Almost all of those were developed by outside/affiliated studios.  Even FETH was entirely outsourced to Koei Tecmo.

 

Throughout the Switch’s entire lifecycle, this is the entirety of Nintendo EPD and Intelligent System’s output (bolded are ports, italics are games built on top of existing Wii U games)

 

1,2,Switch

The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild

Mario Kart 8 Deluxe

ARMS

Splatoon 2

Super Mario Odyssey

Nintendo Labo Vol 1-4 (Mostly based on cancelled Wii and Wii U prototypes; most notably Project Giant Robot and Wii Motorbike)

Sushi Striker: The Way of Sushido (co-developed with Indieszero; also a 3DS port)

New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe

Super Mario Maker 2

Ring Fit Adventure

 

[addendum] For those unaware; Captain Toad Switch/3DS was made by NST, not EPD.

 

That’s it.  That’s their whole output after almost three years.  Pathetic.

 

Meanwhile EPD has launched (and has actively maintained) 5 original mobile titles; and has co-developed Dragalia Lost.  While Intelligent Systems has made illegal amounts of money with their flagship game, Fire Emblem Heroes.  They have both literally made more original mobile titles in the last three years than Switch games.

 

Their priorities are clear as day.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Dcubed

[Ronnie]

So:

1-2 Switch
Breath of the Wild
MK8 Deluxe
Arms
Splatoon 2
Mario Odyssey
Labo
Sushi Striker
NSMBUDX
Super Mario Maker 2
Ring Fit Adventure
Brain Age Switch
Animal Crossing New Horizons

in three years. Ok? Seems pretty healthy, especially knowing what's in the pipeline as well. Then throw in the dozen or so second party/outsourced titles and all the third party games they've worked hard to get on board + first party studio Monolith Soft and Xenoblade 2.

How much work do you really think EPD put into Doctor Mario? If you're dismissing outsourced games like Yoshi, Luigi's Mansion and Link's Awakening, then why not dismiss their co-developed mobile titles? 

1 hour ago, Dcubed said:

Their priorities are clear as day.

If they were prioritising mobile gaming, which they obviously aren't, they'd push them and make Directs on their mobile games. They don't. Mario Kart Tour was pretty much just released one day with almost no fanfare. There were a couple of YouTube videos and that's it. Same with Dragalia Lost and Doctor Mario

[MindFreak]

Just for comparisons, what did they do in the Wii U era? 

[Glen-i]

19 minutes ago, MindFreak said:

Just for comparisons, what did they do in the Wii U era? 

Here's a list of the WiiU games that have Nintendo credited as developers. @Dcubed will probably have to clarify which ones are second party and so on, but here it is.

• Mario Party 10
• Wii Party U
• Mini Mario & Friends: Amiibo Challenge
• Yakuman Ho-o (Japan only)
• Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker
• The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD
• New Super Luigi U
• New Super Mario Bros. U
• Nintendo Land
• Pikmin 3
• Splatoon
• Super Mario Maker
• Wii Fit U
• Super Mario 3D World
• NES Remix
• NES Remix 2
• The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
• Animal Crossing: Amiibo Festival
• The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess HD
• Mario Vs Donkey Kong: Tipping Stars
• Paper Mario: Colour Splash (Not sure whether that counts)

It's worth mentioning that during this time, Nintendo were also making games for the 3DS, here are those games.

• Paper Mario: Sticker Star
• Devilish Brain Training
• Rhythm Paradise Megamix
• Tomodachi Life
• Mario and Donkey Kong: Minis on the Move
• Tank Troopers
• Zelda: Tri Force Heroes
• Steel Diver
• Steel Diver: Sub Wars
• Mario Kart 7
• Star Fox 64 3D
• Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D
• Zelda: Majora's Mask 3D
• Animal Crossing: Happy Home Designer
• Animal Crossing: New Leaf
• Zelda: A Link Between Worlds
• New Super Mario Bros. 2
• Nintendogs + Cats
• Super Mario 3D Land
• Bijen Tokei (Japan Only)
• Crosswords Plus
• Daigasso! Band Borthers P (Japan Only)
• Dr. Mario: Miracle Cure
• Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic games
• Miitopia
• Picross 3D: Round 2
• Sakura Samurai: Art of the Sword
• Team Kirby Clash Deluxe
• WarioWare Gold

Keep in mind that I've excluded some games that were also developed by other companies, such as Bandai Namco. I also left out games that also appeared on the WiiU.
The difference is stark.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Glen-i

[Nicktendo]

I knew Nintendo had been pretty quiet over the past couple of years (Switch year one was fine) but I had absolutely no idea it was on that scale. Seeing what they’ve done in the past two years alone is absolutely sickening 😂

I really hope they’ve got a lot coming next year. Thank god the second parties have been around to pick up the slack. No wonder Q1 and Q2 were so quiet. Shocking. 

[Kounan]

Wrong thread.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Kounan

[Ronnie]

20 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

(Switch year one was fine)

1-2 Switch, ARMS, Splatoon 2, Xenoblade 2 and two Game of the Years in BOTW And Odyssey in the space of 9 months. Fine I suppose. Could do better 

I can't quite believe the hyperbole in this thread: "Shocking, Pathetic and Sickening" to describe Switch software. 

@Glen-i you're mixing first and second party there. A glaring example is why can OOT3D and MM3d count but not Link's Awakening on Switch?

[Nicktendo]

14 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

1-2 Switch, ARMS, Splatoon 2, Xenoblade 2 and two Game of the Years in BOTW And Odyssey in the space of 9 months. Fine I suppose. Could do better 

I can't quite believe the hyperbole in this thread: "Shocking, Pathetic and Sickening" to describe Switch software. 

@Glen-i you're mixing first and second party there. A glaring example is why can OOT3D and MM3d count but not Link's Awakening on Switch?

Xenoblade 2 is Monolith Soft, we are talking about FIRST PARTY software. They have a console on the market (one, not two) and have done almost nothing for two years. Sickening (the laughing smiley face surely gave it away... 🙄), shocking, pathetic. Read it again. Hyperbole, maybe. Opinion, yes. Compared to FIRST PARTY output over the years, it is all of those things.
 

“Fine” was a reference to the OUTPUT, not the quality. They have countless studios. They could and should do more to support their hardware instead of this braindead mobile guff.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Nicktendo

[Glen-i]

17 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

 

@Glen-i you're mixing first and second party there. A glaring example is why can OOT3D and MM3d count but not Link's Awakening on Switch?

 

55 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

Here's a list of the WiiU games that have Nintendo credited as developers. @Dcubed will probably have to clarify which ones are second party and so on, but here it is.

I already mentioned that some second party games will be mixed up in there. I can't be certain which counts so someone else will have to do that.

[Ronnie]

The 11 EPD groups, 7 internal development studios, 4 that act more for assistance and publishing + one external EPD group that's been specifically tasked with mobile gaming.

 

Nintendo EPD - Production Group No. 1 - External R&D
Series/Titles: Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, Kirby, Pokémon, Bayonetta, Style Savvy
Recent: Xenoblade 2: Torna ~ The Golden Country (Developed by Monolithsoft), Fire Emblem: Three Houses (Developed by Intelligent Systems/Koei Tecmo), Astral Chain (Developed by PlatinumGames), Pokémon: Let's Go (Developed by Game Freak), Super Kirby Clash (Developed by Hal Laboratory/Vanpol), Pokémon Sword/Shield (Developed by Game Freak)
Current: Xenoblade Chronicles: Definitive Edition (Developed by Monolithsoft), Tokyo Mirage Sessions ♯FE Encore (Developed by Atlus), Bayonetta 3 (Developed by PlatinumGames)

 

Nintendo EPD - Production Group No. 2 - External R&D
Series/Titles: Mario & Luigi RPG, Mario Sports, Mario Party, Super Smash Bros., Ever Oasis, Fatal Frame, Golden Sun, Yoshi series
Recent: Mario Tennis Aces (Developed by Camelot), Super Mario Party (Developed by NDcube), Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (Developed by Bandai Namco Studios), BOXBOY+BOXGIRL! (Developed by Hal Laboratory), Yoshi's Crafted World (Developed by Good-Feel), The Stretchers (developed by Tarsier Studios/NST)
Current: ??

 

Nintendo EPD - Production Group No. 3 - Internal R&D
Series: The Legend of Zelda
Recent: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening (Developed by Grezzo, production by the group)
Current: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild Sequel

 

Nintendo EPD - Production Group No. 4 - Internal R&D
Series/Titles: Brain Age, Rusty's Real Deal Baseball, Nintendo Badge Arcade, Miitopia
Recent: 1-2 Switch, Nintendo Labo, Ring Fit Adventure
Current: Brain Age: Nintendo Switch Training (co-developed w/ indieszero)

 

Nintendo EPD - Production Group No. 5 - Internal R&D
Series/Titles: Splatoon, Animal Crossing
Recent: Splatoon 2, Splatoon 2: Octo Expansion
Current: Animal Crossing: New Horizons

 

Nintendo EPD - Production Group No. 6 - External R&D
Series/Titles: Metroid Prime, Donkey Kong Country, Paper Mario, WarioWare, Chibi-Robo!, Luigi's Mansion
Recent: Metroid Prime: Federation Force (Developed by Next Level Games), Paper Mario: Color Splash (Developed by Intelligent Systems), WarioWare Gold (Developed by Intelligent Systems), Luigi's Mansion 3 (Developed by Next Level Games)
Current: Metroid Prime 4 (Developed by Retro Studios)

 

Nintendo EPD - Production Group No. 7 - Internal R&D with External Collaborations
Series/Titles: Tomodachi Life/Mii-series, Rhythm Heaven, Metroid (2D)
Recent: Rhythm Heaven Megamix, Miitomo, Metroid: Samus Returns (co-developed with Mercury Steam)
Current: Famicom Detective Club Remakes (co-developed with Mages Inc.)

 

Nintendo EPD - Production Group No. 8 - Internal R&D
Series/Titles: Super Mario (3D), Captain Toad
Recent: Super Mario 3D World, Ultimate NES Remix, Super Mario Odyssey, Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker
Current: ?? (Probably Mario Odyssey sequel)

 

Nintendo EPD - Production Group No. 9 - Internal R&D
Series/Titles: Mario Kart, Nintendogs
Recent: Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, ARMS
Current: Mario Kart Tour

 

Nintendo EPD - Production Group No. 10 - Internal R&D
Series/Titles: Pikmin, Super Mario Bros. (2D), Super Mario Maker
Recent: Super Mario Run, New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe, Super Mario Maker 2
Current: ?? (Super Mario Maker 2 DLC?)

 

Nintendo EPD - Smart Device Production Group  - External R&D
Recent: Fire Emblem Heroes (Developed by Intelligent Systems), Dragalia Lost (Developed by Cygames), Dr. Mario World (Developed by LINE and NHN Entertainment)
Current: Mario Kart Tour (Production for the title of EPD9)

 

In summary, 

Current first-party fully internal projects: Breath of the Wild 2, Brain Age Switch, Animal Crossing New Horizons, Mario Odyssey sequel??, Mario Kart Tour and something from the Mario Maker team.

[Ronnie]

14 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

Xenoblade 2 is Monolith Soft, we are talking about FIRST PARTY software.

Monolith Soft is a first party developer for Nintendo.

14 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

They have a console on the market (one, not two) and have done almost nothing for two years.

Wow.

4 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

I already mentioned that some second party games will be mixed up in there. I can't be certain which counts so someone else will have to do that.

I know you mentioned that, but I was suggesting before you compare them and talk about how the difference was stark, we wait until all the second party stuff is removed from both lists.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Ronnie

[Ronnie]

17 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

They have countless studios

Yes they do. They have a handful of internal development studios making things like 3D Mario, Breath of the Wild 2 and Animal Crossing and an army of second and third party studios making an insane amount of exclusives for the Switch for the past twelve months.

Oh and yes, the Mario Kart team are helping with Mario Kart Tour while MK8 still flies off the shelves. "Pathetic".

Edited November 28, 2019 by Ronnie

[Glen-i]

3 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

I know you mentioned that, but I was suggesting before you compare them and talk about how the difference was stark, we wait until all the second party stuff is removed from both lists.

Fair point, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was still a lot more than Switch has currently.

I'm not sure the list I posted is even full. I couldn't find anything on a lot of games that were eShop only (Like the Dillon series), and I can't be bothered trawling the internet, I've got a Competitive Pokémon team to get ready before December.

[Glen-i]

1 minute ago, Ronnie said:

Oh and yes, the Mario Kart team are helping with Mario Kart Tour while MK8 still flies off the shelves. "Pathetic".

I still think that team would be better spent making some kind of DLC for MK8 to capitilise on how much it flies off the shelves.

[Nicktendo]

7 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Wow.

Wow.

[Ronnie]

5 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

I still think that team would be better spent making some kind of DLC for MK8 to capitilise on how much it flies off the shelves.

Maybe they are who knows, or maybe they're working on ARMS 2 or Mario Kart 9. I know I don't need to tell you but just because none of that is announced doesn't mean they're not. The only thing we factually know is that some (or all) of the team is co-developing Tour.