The big filesharing debate

[tapedeck]

I download a ton of stuff. I've stopped downloading movies as much but that's because the 'scene' aint as good as it used to be. I will only ever watch a film once and I hate clutter. If prices were reasonable I would pay. I hate the fact that if I wish to watch a new movie it is a good £15 (or listen to a new album it is around £10). Maybe I'm tight but I can't justify that kind of 'one time' purchase. I will buy games for around £30 but only titles I have anxiously waited for. Everything else I will wait for the price to drop. Yes that does sound a little silly that I am prepared to wait but want things now but for each type of media/release/title I have very different feelings and responses - just like everyone else.

 

There is no middle ground. Media is either sky-high (extortionate) or free. The consumer has limited choice in the face of one thing: profit. (And why should other countries get things cheaper? - At least if online distribution were mainstream things would be fairer.)

 

I'm happy downloading titles and my ISP charges me bi-monthly for going over my limit. Therefore, in a wierd way they are justifying my purchases and for the amount of content I download this fee is justified. I may (on average) download a ton of PS3 demos/titles, a fair few audio books for my iPod and a ton of HD TV shows.

 

I know it's seen as 'wrong' or copyright violation but the execs of companies need to sharpen up, think outside of the box and accept that this form of media supply is here to stay. Look at Sony's new PSP and the way they are delivering content - it's a fully functional online structure ala itunes/apps.

 

Physical media will always exist to some but the more we get used to file sharing, perhaps in the future our lives will be physical-media free. And why is that something everyone seems to fear? The product still exists. The music/the art/the movie.

We are in an age where this technology is new and this new social dynamic is stirring - it needs to be embraced, explored and I firmly believe that the price of objects is what needs rethinking. Ten10's post kinda sums up what I think about pricing. If a lot of money can be saved on physical media/distribution then that is a good thing for all concerned.

 

/rant.

Edited September 26, 2009 by tapedeck

[Raining_again]

I love the green argument!

[Wesley]

I love people trying to say filesharing isn't stealing and explain it through the technical process that it uses. At the end of the day, you don't pay for it. So whether it's stealing or not your favourite artist/company/film makers/actors are losing out. Plain and simple.

 

Anyway; I have downloaded nearly a TB of movies and TV Shows last year. Doesn't make me feel good though. I'm not trying to cover up what I've done with some bullshit argument that it's technically copying and not stealing, either. I will buy these TV series on DVD once they've ended and I can buy one big box set. I know that sounds lame, and it is. But I just refuse to buy DVD seasons when I know that when they're done you can get nice box sets and deals. As for movies, I pick them up when they're cheaper. But I am still waiting for a digital system that makes sense with movies.

 

As for music, I used to pirate a lot but I don't anymore. The range a systems available for music makes any argument for piracy moot. It used to be that there wasn't a system to download files over the internet, all in one place, at an affordable price: in comes iTunes. It then used to be that DRM meant that you couldn't do what you wished with your music that you just bought: DRM is dropped from most online music stores. There is literally no argument left apart from the, "It's digital therefore I see fit that everything should be free..." This stems from the freedom people get from the world wide web and access to information. ...bullshit. Anyway, my original point being that right now I'm figuring out what online music service to go for. Ideally I'd go for Zune with the Zune Pass, but it's not available in this country yet... so I'm not too sure.

 

I don't use Spotify though, seems kind of lame. It also annoys me when people point to services like this as being a solution: it isn't profitable yet, it's still running on investments. I wouldn't be surprised if they have to introduce more advertising which then turns people off... I'm not saying it won't be profitable at one point; but until it is you can't say it's the solution.

[EEVILMURRAY]

Anyway; I have downloaded nearly a TB of movies and TV Shows last year. Doesn't make me feel good though.

Bullshit, you loved every minute of it and you know it.

[Diageo]

I download music and movies. I'm not proud of it but I'm not ashamed of it. I don't have the money to buy those things. I don't really care if its theft tbh.

[Supergrunch]

I love people trying to say filesharing isn't stealing and explain it through the technical process that it uses. At the end of the day, you don't pay for it. So whether it's stealing or not your favourite artist/company/film makers/actors are losing out. Plain and simple.

It's not a bullshit argument provided it's used correctly, it's just classifying the crime correctly. Copyright theft is a different crime to theft. Similarly, credit-card fraud is a different crime to shoplifting, and so any decent legal system should take these kinds of distinctions into account, whether for better or for worse. It's only a bullshit argument if you try and use it to justify what you're doing as being morally okay. Equally, conflating two different crimes is also a bullshit argument.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Supergrunch

[Cube]

I'm happy downloading titles and my ISP charges me bi-monthly for going over my limit.

 

That's quite unlucky. I've never heard of an ISP in the UK that even looked at how much people were using.

[Mr_Odwin]

That's quite unlucky. I've never heard of an ISP in the UK that even looked at how much people were using.

 

Whut? It's practically everyone, and those that don't tend to have a bandwidth shaping policy (e.g. torrent speeds capped during the daytime).

[danny]

It's not a bullshit argument provided it's used correctly, it's just classifying the crime correctly. Copyright theft is a different crime to theft. Similarly, credit-card fraud is a different crime to shoplifting, and so any decent legal system should take these kinds of distinctions into account, whether for better or for worse. It's only a bullshit argument if you try and use it to justify what you're doing as being morally okay. Equally, conflating two different crimes is also a bullshit argument.

 

I personally think the whole copyright theft argument to be a technicality. If people were ripping it and trying to pass it off as there own i would say that is copyright theft. But if you are just copying it rather than buying it for your own use in my eyes that is theft. I do understand that the law may say its copyright theft but its bullshit really. Music is no different to any other product someone may produce. Your still taking it and not paying for it. You woudnt go and steal bread from a baker in my eyes its one and the same.

And people who say it dosent affect the artist and jus tthe labels. The labels are paying the artist so some how it must be affecting the artists. Its just economics.

[NintendWho]

I personally think the whole copyright theft argument to be a technicality. If people were ripping it and trying to pass it off as there own i would say that is copyright theft. But if you are just copying it rather than buying it for your own use in my eyes that is theft. I do understand that the law may say its copyright theft but its bullshit really. Music is no different to any other product someone may produce. Your still taking it and not paying for it. You woudnt go and steal bread from a baker in my eyes its one and the same.

And people who say it dosent affect the artist and jus tthe labels. The labels are paying the artist so some how it must be affecting the artists. Its just economics.

 

Here, here! Eloquently put and I agree with every word. All my thoughts on this summed up in your one post

[Cube]

Here, here!

 

I personally think that stuff like this is a much worse crime than illegal downloads.

[S.C.G]

Here, here! Eloquently put and I agree with every word. All my thoughts on this summed up in your one post

 

... apart from the bread bit stealing a loaf of bread is actual theft of a physical item, infact fuck the bread, lets say the item is a CD - aha! see what I did there? - now if you stole a CD from a shop then that would be actual theft of music, well moreso the disc that it's pressed onto but still.

 

But downloading music isn't theft of a physical item though you are still stealing the music that would otherwise be pressed onto a legal disc and sold in shops so yes, it's copyright theft and still 'wrong' to a degree as bands do make a certain amount from CD sales, granted it may be a lot less than they make from Gigs and Merchandise but it's still something and for every person downloading a bands album illegally then they are losing out on a little bit of profit each time which still must add up.

 

Now I've 'aquired' a few tracks before but to see if I like the artist(s) and then I've actually gone and bought the CD's... if I hadn't listened to them beforehand though then I might not have bought the CD, mostly I just use spotify etc though so there is no need to actually acquire tracks but just stream them, if I like the tracks I buy the album, if I don't then I won't buy the album, simple and no crime committed it would be better if more people used spotify etc to listen to instead of downloading but we all know that filesharing will be around forever most likely so it won't happen but w/e... and as much as I'm not trying to justify it, there are much worse problems in the world so people shouldn't make out that people who download illegally are bad/evil etc because often there are reasons for them doing so, it doesn't make it right but this world is far from perfect and illegal downloads should be the least of the worries that that authorities should have Imo.

[Jon]

I'm not against it at all, I used to do it before for music but I got annoyed at continually downloading rank version of songs, so I started buying them off iTunes. 79p a song isn't much and you don't think about it at the time but it would probably be scary to add up how much i've giving to Apple over the years. I don't download films as there just not a big priority for me, I can wait for the DVD or until it reaches the cinemas over here. My one exception is tv shows. Sack waiting for them to be shown over here, Ninja gives me my fix when I need it.

[danny]

... apart from the bread bit stealing a loaf of bread is actual theft of a physical item, infact fuck the bread, lets say the item is a CD - aha! see what I did there? - now if you stole a CD from a shop then that would be actual theft of music, well moreso the disc that it's pressed onto but still.

 

Did you read the rest of my post. I said in the eyes of the law its copy right theft but in my eyes.

[S.C.G]

Did you read the rest of my post. I said in the eyes of the law its copy right theft but in my eyes.

 

Yes I did and I get that... and either way I agree it is still theft - in my eyes also - so w/e but there is a difference.

[Diageo]

If you somehow got a hold of a cloning machine. Would you go out and clone clothes, food, appliances for yourself?

That is basically what illegal downloads are. Not anything like stealing bread. You're taking yourself away as a potential costumer but you aren't taking anything directly from them.

 

If I had a cloning machine, I'm pretty sure I would use it. Being poor sucks.

[danny]

Well if your poor go without. You dont need music in your life. Ok some people wil say they do but in reality you dont. Or you could make do with a lot less than 80 gigs of it.

Being poor does not justify it.

[S.C.G]

Well if your poor go without. You dont need music in your life. Ok some people wil say they do but in reality you dont. Or you could make do with a lot less than 80 gigs of it.

Being poor does not justify it.

 

While it's true that we don't exactly 'need' music in our lives, the thought of living without it is pretty terrible tbf... as it can make stuff like car/bus journeys inifinitely better than the boredom enducing fests that they are otherwise but I don't think people should have to 'go without' it as such, I mean maybe use Spotify until the albums can be afforded? that way at least you can still have music at home on your PC just not on the move, unless you can get spotify on your mobile or w/e.

 

Danny, do you listen to a lot of music? because that quote suggests that you don't... 80 gigs? I buy quite a lot of music and my entire music folder - minus the 8GB iTunes folder - comes to only 12GB, now I admit I still don't listen to as much music as some do but still a fair amount - 200+ legally purchased albums - so 80GB is a little bit of an exaggeration, but I get your point.

[danny]

While it's true that we don't exactly 'need' music in our lives, the thought of living without it is pretty terrible tbf... as it can make stuff like car/bus journeys inifinitely better than the boredom enducing fests that they are otherwise but I don't think people should have to 'go without' it as such, I mean maybe use Spotify until the albums can be afforded? that way at least you can still have music at home on your PC just not on the move, unless you can get spotify on your mobile or w/e.

 

Danny, do you listen to a lot of music? because that quote suggests that you don't... 80 gigs? I buy quite a lot of music and my entire music folder - minus the 8GB iTunes folder - comes to only 12GB, now I admit I still don't listen to as much music as some do but still a fair amount - 200+ legally purchased albums - so 80GB is a little bit of an exaggeration, but I get your point.

 

I think my Ipod has about 14gigs on it. Most of it ripped from cds i bought 10 years ago. And a lot of legaly downloaded free dance music.

[S.C.G]

I think my Ipod has about 14gigs on it. Most of it ripped from cds i bought 10 years ago. And a lot of legaly downloaded free dance music.

 

Fair enough : peace: just the 80GB quote irked me somewhat because I thought to myself 'who has 80GB of music in mp3/wma format on their PC?' because that would be what... 1000+ albums worth or something.

 

Though yeah, if someone had illegally downloaded that many albums then that would be a rather extreme violation of music copyright/theft.

[NintendWho]

I personally think that stuff like this is a much worse crime than illegal downloads.

 

I'm sorry, was my agreeance offensive...? Wasn't meant to be, I just agreed with every they had said.

 

Whether it's theft or copyright theft, it's still illegal, still theft and you're still stealing. There's no justification for illegally downloading someone else's copyrighted material.

[Nicktendo]

Well if your poor go without.

 

Idiot.....

 

I'm 'poor' by many standards. Why the fuck should I 'go without' because I don't happen to have as much disposable income as Tom, Dick and Harry down the street. To me, music is more important than anything else in my life and For the past 7 or 8 years I have been buying large quantities of CD's off Amazon imported from the US and other regions of the world or at gigs, but never from HMV and the like because I'm 'too poor' to justify spending £10+ on a cd.

 

One day a few months ago this debate began to rage. I sat down and had a bit of an epiphany. When illegal downloading first came to the forefront with Napster and Audiogalaxy etc. (1998) I took part on my shitty 56k connection in downloading as many songs as my bandwith would allow (maybe one song a day) for about 6 months. After my dad eventually stopped me... I started buying second hand albums cheap off of Amazon of my new favourite bands whom before I'd had no access too. This act shaped my interest in music and got me into the genres I most enjoy. I started doing the usual thing of going to gigs regularly and taking part in the music in person as well as listening at home.

 

About 3 months ago I stopped buying cheap second hand CDs because I realised that I was wasting my money. The artists get fuck all from my purchase anyway and that £4-6 that I spent on a CD could alternatively be spent on a gig or a t-shirt. I must have spent about £2000 in 8 years on the 500+ CDs I own and my music collection fills up over 40gb of my ipod and it's growing now quicker than it ever was. I'm discovering new and exciting bands almost daily and it is re-invigorating my love of music more than ever. These last 3 months have been mental, I've been to some amazing gigs all over the country and even met a few of my heroes along the way while nicely expanding my collection of band t-shirts, patches, posters, stickers and badges. I think it's clear to see how my favourite artists get a fairer share of my money, or in fact any of my money because they get nothing from a second hand purchase, which was all I was able to afford.

 

But because I'm 'poor' I shouldn't be able to live like this. Fuck you. Bigot.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Nicktendo

[danny]

Idiot.....

 

Pardon?

Theres no need to start name calling espessialy from someone who dosent even have a birth certificate just a written appology from durex.

[MoogleViper]

Well if your poor go without. You dont need music in your life. Ok some people wil say they do but in reality you dont. Or you could make do with a lot less than 80 gigs of it.

Being poor does not justify it.

 

Pardon?

Theres no need to start name calling espessialy from someone who dosent even have a birth certificate just a written appology from durex.

 

These two posts just make you look like a complete prick. Saying poor people should go without. Yeah why not. And what's with all these homeless shelters? They don't need a house they can sleep on the street. And why do we send toys to poorer countries at Christmas? They don't need toys to live their life, if they can't afford to buy them then they should just go without.

[EEVILMURRAY]

Pardon?

Theres no need to start name calling espessialy from someone who dosent even have a birth certificate just a written appology from durex.

Where did you get that one from, and how long have you been sitting on it?

 

Using this on my workmate would work a right treat.