The Last of Us (TV)

[Julius]

1 hour ago, Shorty said:

This is a damn fine TV. Not sure how that happened.

I was confident going in that it would be the first great video game adaptation, and I was expecting an 8/10. So even with my relatively high hopes compared to what's come for it, it's blown even my expectations away. 

I think, simply, it's a case of Sony actually understanding the value of their IP and giving it the resource it thoroughly deserves. Neil Druckmann is a great creative in his own right, but given this is his first crack at television, he was paired with the right man in Craig Mazin, who wrote and created Chernobyl, and it's not hard to see why that was a smart decision. Gustavo Santaolalla returned after his excellent work with the two Last of Us games to compose the show's main theme and worked alongside David Flemming in composing the rest of the show's music. The licensed music so far has evidently been carefully selected and they've nailed it every time so far, the CG so far has mostly been limited to wide background shots and there's been a bunch of practical effects throughout, and, three episodes deep, I don't think they've put a single foot wrong in terms of casting. 

It's not a 1:1 adaptation (even if the first episode definitely leaned into that and made it seem like it would be close to one), but it's also not doing the video game adaptation thing of using the same characters but just making something up. They're adapting a universally excellent story in a way which suits the medium they're adapting it to - the flashbacks so far have all been brilliant so far and it's a technique put to great effect in television, but one that simply wouldn't work nearly as well in a game - and that, to me, shows how much care has been poured into it. 

If it keeps going at this rate, I really think it stands a chance at opening the floodgates to storytelling in video games finally getting more the praise it deserves from a much wider audience. It's been brilliant, and with my favourite parts of the story still to come, I'm having a hard time imagining how they could be made better – but I'm confident they'll take a good crack at it. 

[drahkon]

When my mom calls me to talk about the show and ask me how it differs from the game, you know it's incredible.

Edited February 11, 2023 by drahkon

[Julius]

With one episode left, the show has continued to be great...but, Episode 3 aside, I think almost everything else was handled just as well - if not better - in the original game. Still killing it in terms of viewership, unsurprisingly: the show's audience has grown 74% from Episode 1's premiere to the premiere of the most recent episode, Episode 8. 

I'm sure I'll talk about it more once the show is over, but there's just been weird moments and choices for me in the show throughout which means it doesn't quite hit the heights of the game for me, despite still, by far and away, being the best adaptation of a video game to date. Just weird moments of dialogue shuffled around from one place to another, staying shot-to-shot and line-to-line faithful in some scenes but then making new and original content for others (which has strangely trailed off? Think there were some great uses of this for flashbacks/Day Zero stuff), and some weird musical choices too (we got the credits music for Part I playing at the end of Episode 5 or 6, can't remember which? And a certain climactic moment in the last episode didn't have music which served as a great callback and arc closer in the game). There have also just been moments where they spell things out for you in a way that they don't in the games, and my eyes roll into the back of my skull – are writers really that nervous about subtext in their scenes these days? 

The biggest kicker for me - and the most puzzling - is just how little we've seen of the Infected throughout the show; it's felt less survival horror and more, well, survivor with zombies occasionally thrown in. Super weird choice, because we've only had one or two moments of true tension related to the Infected as a result (the rest has kind of been them going full Hollywood, to an almost distracting degree at times), so yeah, there's that. Can't help but wonder if their budget was capped for some silly reason, because even though I loved Episode 3 and think it was much better than the content we got in the game for that part of the story, it being so different to the game seems to be a result of needing to cut corners and run away from using the Infected. It's really bizarre. They've straight up cut two of the most memorable encounters with the Infected in the entire game! 

On the flip side, there's been some great acting in this, I think Bella Ramsey has been great as Ellie, occasionally there'll be a line stolen from the game verbatim and I'll just be like "well, Ashley Johnson definitely did that better", but it's only been distracting once or twice (and I think that just comes about as a result of this Ellie feeling weirdly younger at times than she was in the game). It's also just nice that this is already brilliant story continues to show that with time, patience, and the right people spearheading a project, video game stories can be told well in other formats. 

Oh, and I nearly forgot: I wish people would just give up on shaky cam, I think it was Episode 7 where I suddenly got nauseous and needed to check the bitrate of my stream because the camera was jittering about all over the shop. There's a time and a place for it, and that's not a shot with two people stationary either side of a table just talking to each other 

I don't personally think I can consider this more than a 9/10 adaptation of a 10/10 game and story, despite one episode still being left, but if nothing else, it was worth it for Episode 3 and to see how it was handled. I can't help but wonder if them adapting Part II could help fix my main issues with it (pacing and structure), whereas their adaptation of Part I has made an already lean and mean story into an even leaner story, and I do think that's come at a cost to the quality of the adaptation. 

[drahkon]

Loved the first season.

Two criticisms, though: A few more infected encounters would've been great (not so much for my mum ) and the show occasionally didn't make passage of time clear enough. It wasn't a big deal for me as I know the game, but my mom was confused at times and I had to explain stuff to her.
Speaking of, she still has to watch the final two episodes. Whoooo boy, can't wait to hear her thoughts on how it'll all play out.

[EEVILMURRAY]

I'm on episode 4 and ... meh. I'm not in a rush to watch the rest. I was expecting more infected killing action, not a series about running between waist high walls avoiding everything. It's been a long time since I played the game, but there's a difference between the doing it and being involved as opposed to just being passive with no control.

[MindFreak]

I'm done with episode 4 as well and want to watch the rest. It's a lot more about the feelings and persons than zombie action which is good, and I really like Joel and Ellie. The acting is great and their chemistry is awesome. 

When The Walking Dead was the shit my wife and I watched some episodes but about halfway through (or maybe all the way through) season 2 we quit as it was just depressing, no hope or light in the show at all. If the same happens here, we will probably quit as well. As of now, they haven't really got a goal except finding Joel's brother somewhere which isn't really that interesting. 

[MindFreak]

Episode 5 done. We're not really feeling it that much. Its alright but not outstanding. There isn't really much happening is there? 

My wife is really bored, I'm still interested but mainly because I like Joel and Ellie. The other stuff doesn't really work well and it could easily have been cut down a few episodes, especially the stuff in Kansas. It also seems a bit aimless.

Also, my wife pointed out that zombies are really boring enemies as they don't have a plan or ulterior motive or anything. They are just there. Eating stuff. There is nothing to wonder about, nothing to figure out. 

[MindFreak]

Finished it now and the last three episodes were a lot more enjoyable than the previous 4 episodes. 

[Julius]

Kaitlyn Dever has been cast as Abby in Season 2: 

Really curious to see how Season 2 shakes out. I think some of the changes made in Season 1 from the game unique to the show were great, others (especially towards the end) really questionable at best, whereas I think similar changes could be positive for the overall pacing and flow of Season 2. 

[Dcubed]

I wonder if Season 3 end up coming out before TLOU 3 at this rate...

The TV show has been so successful that I can imagine that it'll end up supplanting the games themselves at some point (much like how GOT supplanted its original source material).  An interesting dillema for Sony/Naughty Dog to be sure.

Edited January 9 by Dcubed

[Julius]

Elsewhere, yesterday Young Manazino was cast as Jesse:

 

 

On 1/9/2024 at 7:53 PM, Dcubed said:

I wonder if Season 3 end up coming out before TLOU 3 at this rate...

I think that would be expected as things stand - seeing as, without trying to spoil anything, TLOU2 is more than big enough to warrant two seasons by itself.

Before the strikes I believe HBO announced S2 as coming in 2025, but given how everything has been pushed back and that we're only just starting to get casting announcements, I wouldn't be shocked if it slipped into 2026; whenever S2 lands, I'd be shocked if S3 (so, TLOU2's second half) didn't arrive a year later. 

Compare this to TLOU3, which is very likely a game for the end of the generation and potentially cross-gen, so I'm expecting that in 2027/2028. It's hard to say where Naughty Dog's new IP will land given we have no idea what sort of scale it is going to be on, but I have to imagine - and hope - that it lands before Part III does, either next year or in 2026. Crazy to think that excluding remake.remaster projects, they're going to release two brand new titles this gen at best  at worst, I wouldn't be shocked if their new IP got canned in favour of TLOU3 taking priority after the mess that Factions has been. 

On 1/9/2024 at 7:53 PM, Dcubed said:

The TV show has been so successful that I can imagine that it'll end up supplanting the games themselves at some point (much like how GOT supplanted its original source material).  An interesting dillema for Sony/Naughty Dog to be sure.

It depends what we're talking about, I feel. 

If we're talking about public mindshare? I'd say the TV show has already supplanted the games when it comes to general awareness; amongst the most casual, it's "that TV show based on a game" with little context for what the game even is and how it plays (Despite obviously being one of PlayStation's best-selling first party titles...ever?), and I think what's maybe more concerning is that I haven't seen the show bring anyone else new into the game, at least not in waves as I imagine Sony probably wanted part of the end result to be for this project. Maybe it's just me squirreled away in my own corner on the internet, but I was shocked to not have my YouTube feed filled with recommendations along the lines of 'SO, I PLAYED THE GAME', 'SHOULD YOU PLAY THE LAST OF US AFTER WATCHING THE SHOW?', 'CONTINUING THE FIGHT: PLAYING THE LAST OF US PART II', etc. 

If we're talking about actual perceived quality and what is, perhaps, a better experience? I mostly really enjoyed S1, heck I even loved certain parts - especially what they added to the lore and how they fleshed out certain characters - but it is a truncated adaptation of a story which misses the mark on its pacing and some major beats compared with the game. Bit of a tangent, but I also maintain that the endings and the aims of the ending for both the first and second game - and I would argue the ENTIRE POINT OF THEM FROM A NARRATIVE GAMING POV - is completely lost in a passive medium such as television; yes, you can hit the same beats, you can tell the same story, you can not pull the same punches and you can say the exact same lines, but if you played through either game's ending and came away with just a seed of doubt over a character's actions, recognising you hesitated for just a moment while filling the shoes of a character - that is the entire point of those games and why TLOU is as beloved and criticially acclaimed in the space. From that perspective, I struggle to see how the shows could ever supplant the games (and which is why I think they've leaned on fleshing out what they could elsewhere in the story, to try to coax those emotions out of you elsewhere). 

[Dcubed]

3 hours ago, Julius said:

It depends what we're talking about, I feel. 

Really I was thinking in terms of both the public zeitgeist (as you correctly hit on), and in terms of the creative process.  The issue of “quality” or how well each medium tells the story is neither here nor there.

If Season 3 does indeed end up coming out before TLOU 3 (as the current schedule seems to be veering towards happening), one has to wonder if the story will start being written with the idea of it being made for TV first and then a game secondary.

TV is much quicker to make than a modern AAA video game, so if PlayStation/Naughty Dog intend on continuing TLOU as a series? They’re inevitably going to have to deal with what happens when the TV show overtakes the video game series.

Will TLOU the TV series become the main product where the game is relegated to becoming supplementary material? Or will the TV series have to start veering away from pure adaptation into going down its own timeline? Or perhaps they’ll have to start looking at spinoff series or perhaps “filler” material? (Much like how anime adaptations of manga make up their own “filler” arcs while they wait for the manga to catch up).

Personally? At some point, I think that the TV series will become the main product, and the video game series will just become the supplementary material; with extra story content that helps to fill in blanks left by the TV show.

I also think that when Naughty Dog do end up working on a new IP? I think it’ll be a cross media series from the beginning; with the story being written for TV first, and the games being like “event movies” that the TV show leads up to.  Seems to be the direction that Sony is heading towards in general, with them trying to create better synergy between their different divisions, and with PlayStation heavily leaning towards turning their various franchises into TV & Film.  In fact, I’m surprised that they’ve never really done this before in earnest (Rachet & Clank notwithstanding; they didn’t put nearly enough effort & budget into that experiment).  But now with the success of TLOU? (And to a lesser extent Twisted Metal, Uncharted and Gran Turismo).  It seems inevitable that this is the road they’re going down next.

[Julius]

We now have our Dina in Isabela Merced:

 

9 hours ago, Dcubed said:

Really I was thinking in terms of both the public zeitgeist (as you correctly hit on)

Okay, then yeah: in terms of public Zeitgeist and awareness, I think it's honestly pretty much already supplanted the game, though I think there's a huge asterisk next to that in that I'm not sure if it will have the staying power to remain that way in the same way the game has for over a decade. This is a game regularly featured in Top 10 lists for greatest of all-time in the medium and the first to really nail serious storytelling in a way, whereas the show, while a great adaptation, is yet another dark, gritty, dour tale set in a zombie apocalypse in that particular space. The only real differentiator and pull factor, honestly, if you haven't played the game and are fully casual when it comes to TV and hames (and away from the hive mind of the public consciousness), is that it's an adaptation of a video game's story. 

9 hours ago, Dcubed said:

and in terms of the creative process.

If Season 3 does indeed end up coming out before TLOU 3 (as the current schedule seems to be veering towards happening), one has to wonder if the story will start being written with the idea of it being made for TV first and then a game secondary.

TV is much quicker to make than a modern AAA video game, so if PlayStation/Naughty Dog intend on continuing TLOU as a series? They’re inevitably going to have to deal with what happens when the TV show overtakes the video game series.

Will TLOU the TV series become the main product where the game is relegated to becoming supplementary material? Or will the TV series have to start veering away from pure adaptation into going down its own timeline? Or perhaps they’ll have to start looking at spinoff series or perhaps “filler” material? (Much like how anime adaptations of manga make up their own “filler” arcs while they wait for the manga to catch up).

Personally? At some point, I think that the TV series will become the main product, and the video game series will just become the supplementary material; with extra story content that helps to fill in blanks left by the TV show.

Totally get where you're coming from, and I think it's a great though experiment, but honestly? I think it's the other way around, as you kind of touched upon. 

The games simply take too long to make and are far too expensive to be relegated to becoming spin-off material for a show which - while very popular, critically acclaimed, a great video game adaptation, etc. - is absolutely not at the forefront of television in the same way these games are for the video game industry.

At the moment it looks like Part III is going to continue the cadence we have of getting a game in the series once per generation, one every seven years, and at the tail end of each generation, no less! I do think Part III gets adapted after it releases, but I also think that project's wheels were spinning long before the TV series was a guaranteed success. 

The only way the games become spin-offs - and I mean even if there's a possibility of spin-offs in both mediums - is I think if PlayStation somehow go against the very trends rotting their core away: bloated AAA budgets with increasingly long development time. I look at DC since James Gunn has taken over and laugh at this idea that they're planning games between films when dev on the games has barely started and the films are well under way; you can knock out a blockbuster in three years, two years if you're really pushing it, and that's assuming cast/director overlap. Games? You know this, the AAA ones take way longer to develop and are far, far more likely to hit blocks in the road as a result of the tech being used, moving deadlines thanks to corporate reshuffles, are often more open to cancellations or complete overhauls, etc. 

I really can't see PlayStation prioritising Part III's show over the game, but I do think there's plenty of room to flesh out the world in spin-off TV series; as you say, they're generally more affordable and can be put out at a faster rate, and I do genuinely think there are plenty of story opportunities you could take there which would be a pain to develop an entire game for - reused assets or not, this is Naughty Dog we're talking about, not Insomniac.

I think the answer to your question of what happens when the show catches up is that the shows are to build popularity for the games, where they can make much more money from sales, and that they slow down and spread out with spin-offs in the TV space; which, very importantly, they can do without risking the brand image of the games or the particular seasons/show based on certain games. If a spin-off TV show flops? Eh, typical Hollywood, they could've done X, Y, Z better. If a spin-off game which takes Naughty Dog away from other projects bottles? Then man, you've got people questioning the entire pipeline - which is way more malleable than a TV show pipeline because of comparatively shorter production times, etc. 

So yeah, I do agree with your suggestion of it going the spin-off route more than any other. I think it gives them the most opportunity to explore new ideas in a way which can be profitable but also cause the least impact if things don't go their way. I think the TV shows becomes what keeps people engaged between the tentpole releases which are the games, which is what's really making PlayStation the money. 

(I was quoting you part at a time so we kind of came to the conclusion from different perspectives on the games being tentpoles here naturally, which is super interesting)

9 hours ago, Dcubed said:

I also think that when Naughty Dog do end up working on a new IP? I think it’ll be a cross media series from the beginning; with the story being written for TV first, and the games being like “event movies” that the TV show leads up to.  Seems to be the direction that Sony is heading towards in general, with them trying to create better synergy between their different divisions, and with PlayStation heavily leaning towards turning their various franchises into TV & Film.  In fact, I’m surprised that they’ve never really done this before in earnest (Rachet & Clank notwithstanding; they didn’t put nearly enough effort & budget into that experiment).  But now with the success of TLOU? (And to a lesser extent Twisted Metal, Uncharted and Gran Turismo).  It seems inevitable that this is the road they’re going down next.

Man, it's really hard to say.

On the one hand, I'm sure Naughty Dog are looking over at what Remedy has been doing lately and going "holy shoot, we have way more money in our purses, we can do something with that sort of mindset and aim but in a way which is uniquely ND and impactful in the same way our other projects have been", but on the other, they kind of have a set tone with Uncharted and TLOU which I'm increasingly getting the impression that they want to break out of – or, at least, take a break from. 

I like the idea of the games being tentpoles and having the show between be less what I was suggesting in terms of being a "let's keep them engaged" sort of sense and more "let's bridge the gap between these two stories", but again, the only thing that gives me pause - as much as I think ND could do that better than most - is that, well, it's the time it takes to develop a game. Part II had this fervour around it purely because it was a sequel to a damn near-perfect game in my eyes and the hunger of nothing between releases kept people wanting, whereas a great hypothetical First Game in some original, cross-media game trilogy followed by a middling story bridging the gap in TV really puts Second Game in an odd spot, and makes a show between Second Game and Third Game, well, a really questionable decision. There's also the fact that if you don't AAA and at the level that Naughty Dog has made us expect then that's at least a decade+ commitment. Again, I just think it adds too much risk to the brand, whatever brand that would be. 

I think it really comes down to Neil, at this point after Factions got closed down I feel like he and Naughty Dog taking a hard stance against PlayStation's/Jim Ryan's push for live Service and giving the reasons they did (which were likely BS, but whatever) shows that they don't care what the mandate is, if a project isn't work or is jeopardising something else in the pipeline they'll be able to argue a way out of doing it. They have that deserved pedigree and level of respect within PlayStation.

Going back to Part III to wrap up: the other thing is that Neil is a huge Godfather fan, you can tell from Part I and Part II of TLOU if you've seen the first two Godfather films, and he'll have seen what a mess Part III was, for a number of reasons, growing up, let alone every other film trilogy which has more often than not turned out to not be the strongest in the trilogy. Would he then jeopardise the third and I reckon final act in Ellie's story? I think he'd rather leave the company, to be honest with you, if they start to strong-arm him into making certain story decisions, I really do. 

[EEVILMURRAY]

I suppose I should:

Get round to finishing the TV show (because it sucked ass so I didn't bother)

Replay the game, although I think I may need to re-purchase it, as I'm not sure what format I have it on/current console ownage.

[Dcubed]

Hey!

On 11/01/2024 at 12:48 PM, Dcubed said:

I also think that when Naughty Dog do end up working on a new IP? I think it’ll be a cross media series from the beginning; with the story being written for TV first, and the games being like “event movies” that the TV show leads up to.  Seems to be the direction that Sony is heading towards in general, with them trying to create better synergy between their different divisions, and with PlayStation heavily leaning towards turning their various franchises into TV & Film.  In fact, I’m surprised that they’ve never really done this before in earnest (Rachet & Clank notwithstanding; they didn’t put nearly enough effort & budget into that experiment).  But now with the success of TLOU? (And to a lesser extent Twisted Metal, Uncharted and Gran Turismo).  It seems inevitable that this is the road they’re going down next.

Speak of the devil @Julius...

[Julius]

News on directors for S2 came out last week:

Quote

New;

- Mark Mylod (Succession)

- Kate Herron (Loki)

- Stephen Williams (Watchmen)

- Nina Lopez-Corrado (Perry Mason)

Returning; 

- Craig Mazin

- Neil Druckmann

- Peter Hoar

Solid list of new directors. Really, really curious to see how they structure the second season vs the game. 

5 hours ago, Dcubed said:

Speak of the devil @Julius...

Ah yes, my favourite of the Naughty Dogs: Hideo Kojima

[EEVILMURRAY]

Did they not see how they ruined Loki?! 

[Ashley]

Catherine O'Hara is joining the cast which is unexpected. 

 

[Julius]

First look at Joel and Ellie in S2:

Well, Joel's hair is longer, but I can't say that Ellie looks much older here.

I remember seeing some concerns a while back about how they'd age Ellie up for S2 and a few people said wardrobe and make-up would be big, and I'd say they were right; the giant puffy coat swallowing her up definitely doesn't make her look much older at all. 

[CrowingJoe79]

Naughty Dog get a lot of guff from people, who say they make movie games.

Honestly. They haven't let me down. Their games are stunning to play and even to look at. I actually think (and I hate to say it), they did a better job than Capcom has over the past several years. Although maybe comparing these two different companies in an apples and oranges kind of way is peculiar.

Not that Capcom is bad all the time, but they have gotten so money hungry. 

[Hero-of-Time]

I've still not watched the first season. I should really get around to fixing that.

Man, people who haven't played the games are gonna be up in arms with what happens in the second season/game.  

 

[Julius]

Another trailer for Season II. 

Looks great. 

Feel like the first season was a great if flawed adaptation of what is a practically flawless story in the game, be it the content or its pacing. Definitely dropped the ball at certain key moments for me. 

Meanwhile, the second season should have much more flexibility when it comes to its adaptation because of how flawed the second game is, it leaves plenty of room to be interpreted differently and potentially better by the showrunners, which I don't think could ever have been the case for adapting the first game (again: practically flawless). 

Scratching my head for when and how they pace and frame and order this second season, but I can't wait. 

Edited September 26 by Julius

[CrowingJoe79]

You stupid old man.

You don't get to rush this. 👱‍♀️ 🧔 🏌‍♀️