Pokémon Legends: Arceus (28th January 2022)

[Glen-i]

2 minutes ago, Ashley said:

Do we know that to be true? There was no indication new Pokémon was in this and that may come later but seems strange if this was now the only thing going forward.

We don't really. It has almost none of the trappings of a new generation. (New Pokémon and a new region being the big two) Hell, we don't even know if battles will be the same!

@Serebii is listing it as a Gen VIII game and I'm inclined to agree with him until more info comes out.

[Scratch]

This is either going to be a huge Breath of the WIld level world and the best Pokemon game to date.

Or we've already seen the radius of the world map in the trailer and it's just going to be a not very big field with hardly anything going on in it. xD

Edited February 26, 2021 by Sckewi

[Jonnas]

46 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

This isn't a spinoff.  It's the next mainline game; and the future of the mainline series as a whole.

Traditional Pokemon games are dead & buried now outside of remakes... just like what happened to Zelda (which is very fitting considering how much of a massive BOTW knockoff this game is!).

Man, that's a lot of conjecture within one post! This title literally takes place within the same region as a previous generation, down to reusing designs from those games. And the starters are old pokémon. No indication whatsoever that Legends: Arceus is the "next" anything.

It's premature to say traditional Pokémon games are dead and buried when A. a remake from a traditional game literally just got announced; and B. Sword&Shield are a massive success, even by Pokémon standards.

I know you dislike BOTW style games, but don't put the cart in front of the Tauros. Remember that a couple of years ago, fans were panicking, fearing that the Let's Go line would be the future of the series going forward (based on pure speculation). Turns out it was just that: fear.

[Julius]

51 minutes ago, Ashley said:

Do we know that to be true? There was no indication new Pokémon was in this and that may come later but seems strange if this was now the only thing going forward. 

I think @Dcubed was implying that this is more the future of the series as a whole, and likely the general direction Gen IX will head in, rather than being the start of Gen IX itself. 

I'm inclined to agree with @Glen-i that this is a Gen VIII game simply because it lacks a new region and will likely lack new Pokémon, and it being so different to other games in the generation visually and in terms of its engine isn't much of an issue anymore, because that was thrown out of the window in Gen VII with the Let's Go games. Honestly, with this being so experimental and such a drastic change from what else we've had before it this Gen, I think the Let's Go games are the closest thing we can compare them to. 

It's an experiment, and I think they'll see how it does before it truly impacts the "real core series" games (honestly, the lines between core series games and generations are just becoming blurrier and blurrier). I do think that they were wise to brand it as its own subseries, "Legends", like they did with the Let's Go games, because it gives them space to pivot if it somehow, against all odds, manages to flop. If it does, they can just wave it away as being it's own subseries and not bringing much over to the "real core series" games, but either way, with Let's Go too, I think they really want to set Legends up as its own thing they can come back to (original dragon and the Ancient War in Unova next? And then the Kalos war after that? Heck, I'm down) and are using this as a testing ground at the moment for the more radical potential changes to the norm. 

The lack of settlements (seriously, what a great job they've done of contextualising an empty world ), the new rolling mechanics, lack of trainers, etc., isn't what I would expect to make its way over to the next generation of games, but rather the open world design philosophy, should it prove a success. Will it be as open as this appears to be striving for? I'm not totally sure, but I would imagine so. If we consider that they've got outsourced remakes coming later this year, this game at the start of next year, and the potential to plug another year or two up with the possibility of an Expansion Pass and/or Let's Go games set in Johto? Then they've effectively bought themselves until either 2023 or 2024 before we saw Gen IX, at which point I would be very, very surprised if it doesn't end up being a mix of more traditional mechanics (trainer battles, capture mechanics, etc.) with an open world like they're attempting to realise here. 

And the fact that this easily has the highest sales potential of any Pokémon games since the original games, on a Nintendo console which is destroying sales records, doesn't give me much confidence that Game Freak won't continue down this line of development moving forwards. 

51 minutes ago, Ashley said:

 

This kind of stuff is what I find interesting about this project and I know the above is currently just fan speculation but it would be nice for Pokémon to delve into its lore a bit more. I know they come up with stuff in the games but it always seems a bit...daffy. 

I noticed that and loved it, and I also love that no-one knows how the Cyndaquil line and Typhlosion could fit in. 

Something I haven't seen mentioned here is the fact that Piplup will be available in the wild in Sinnoh for the first time in this game, at least going off this trailer. The fact that it isn't in the wild by the time we get to modern times Diamond & Pearl/their remakes to me suggests to me that it's either a victim of over-hunting as the Sinnoh region's choice of water-type starter Pokémon. 

And considering we're the ones making the first Sinnoh Dex...does this make us responsible? 

[Ronnie]

3 hours ago, Glen-i said:

I don't want them to go this route though, because Pokémon fills a niche for Monster Collecting style RPG's, if they stopped doing that, what is there for those people who actually like that kind of game?

I'm sure they'd continue to cater for that too, just a bit less frequently.

It's as if someone said after A Link to the Past, they only want Zelda to cater to the top down 2D adventure game niche. We wouldn't have gotten the amazing 3D instalments. Reality is we get both. Same with Mario and any other franchises. After dozens of games, surely it's time for Pokemon to evolve a bit, now that the technology is there.

1 hour ago, Ashley said:

Do we know that to be true?

No, it's just an assumption based on almost nothing. And traditional Zelda games aren't dead and buried, Link's Awakening was just remade a year and a half ago, Skyward Sword HD is a thing now, and A Link Between Worlds was the previous title before BOTW.

[Sheikah]

I don't want them to go this route though, because Pokémon fills a niche for Monster Collecting style RPG's, if they stopped doing that, what is there for those people who actually like that kind of game?

I don't know, the 20 games that came before that all play almost exactly the same?

[Dcubed]

The thing is though, that Sword & Shield were already heading in this direction with the Wild Areas.  Legends is simply the logical conclusion of that pathway.  TPC even said that this is the next big step forward for the series in the Pokemon Presents video.  Why should we doubt what they are saying here?

And open worlds like this are much easier to make and design than traditional, handcrafted environments.  Considering how much of a disaster of a time that Game Freak had making Sword/Shield? It makes sense that they would abandon the old approach in favour of the industry's current favourite trend.  It's just much easier to make an open world game like this, where most parts of the environment are copy/pasted and procedurally generated; and you don't need to spend so much development time & effort on bespoke environments, assets & gameplay.  This is what people want these days anyway, nobody appreciated what Sword/Shield even did anyway.

The only reason why they would return to making traditional Pokemon games at this point is if Legends turns out to be a sales disaster... which will not happen.  This game has 30+ million seller written all over it.

Great news for everyone who loves these Ubisoft-esc open world games.  Horrible news for those of us that can't stand them.

8 hours ago, Ronnie said:

No, it's just an assumption based on almost nothing. And traditional Zelda games aren't dead and buried, Link's Awakening was just remade a year and a half ago, Skyward Sword HD is a thing now, and A Link Between Worlds was the previous title before BOTW.

All remakes.  The only future that the Zelda series has is open world now.  That, of course, doesn't proclude remakes & remasters of older titles; but new games that follow the traditional handcrafted mold? Forget it.  You will never see them again.  They're just too expensive & difficult to make in today's world, something that even Nintendo admitted during the BOTW GDQ post-mortem.  The Last Guardian is probably the closest thing that we have to a traditional Zelda style game that was made for a HD console, and that took around 10 years to make!

The same thing is now about to happen to Pokemon.  We will still get remakes, but new games? Forget it.  Sword/Shield was such a disastrous production that it pushed Game Freak to making a BOTW clone instead, and that'll be the series' future moving forward.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Dcubed

[Sheikah]

The thing is though, that Sword & Shield were already heading in this direction with the Wild Areas.  Legends is simply the logical conclusion of that pathway.  TPC even said that this is the next big step forward for the series in the Pokemon Presents video.  Why should we doubt what they are saying here?
And open worlds like this are much easier to make and design than traditional, handcrafted environments.  Considering how much of a disaster of a time that Game Freak had making Sword/Shield? It makes sense that they would abandon the old approach in favour of the industry's current favourite trend.  It's just much easier to make an open world game like this, where most parts of the environment are copy/pasted and procedurally generated; and you don't need to spend so much development time & effort on bespoke environments, assets & gameplay.  This is what people want these days anyway, nobody appreciated what Sword/Shield even did anyway.
The only reason why they would return to making traditional Pokemon games at this point is if Legends turns out to be a sales disaster... which will not happen.  This game has 30+ million seller written all over it.
Great news for everyone who loves these Ubisoft-esc open world games.  Horrible news for those of us that can't stand them.
All remakes.  The only future that the Zelda series has is open world now.  That, of course, doesn't proclude remakes & remasters of older titles; but new games that follow the traditional handcrafted mold? Forget it.  You will never see them again.  They're just too expensive & difficult to make in today's world, something that

.  The Last Guardian is probably the closest thing that we have to a traditional Zelda style game that was made for a HD console, and that took around 10 years to make!
The same thing is now about to happen to Pokemon.  We will still get remakes, but new games? Forget it.  Sword/Shield was such a disastrous production that it pushed Game Freak to making a BOTW clone instead, and that'll be the series' future moving forward.

Never again, c'maaan. Open world might not be popular forever. Let's not talk in such absolutes.

I could easily see a spin off franchise to Zelda like what we saw with Spirit Tracks, coexisting alongside the main Zelda titles.

[Ashley]

9 hours ago, Julius said:

I noticed that and loved it, and I also love that no-one knows how the Cyndaquil line and Typhlosion could fit in. 

I saw suggestions because they were an early society to come up with explosions.

Plus Cyndaquil would be a cute little campfire if you needed it.

I was thinking about this game this morning and I think GF are kind of a victim of the anime's success. That shows what a real open world would look like; Pokémon roaming about, flocks of Pokémon together etc. We got more of that from the Snap trailer than we did Legends which just showed Pokémon standing still or in a small walk/bobble cycle. Obviously Snap benefits from being on the rails and I'm not expecting that from this game, but I think at least personally when I think "open world" I want something that actually replicates the feeling of living in a world with Pokémon and I don't think GF have the chutzpah to pull it off.

[Glen-i]

8 hours ago, Sheikah said:

I don't know, the 20 games that came before that all play almost exactly the same?

Ooooh, yay... Old games! Old mechanics! Exciting!

I could far easily suggest the hundreds of recent open-world games for you to play instead. I could throw a rock and I'll probably hit one somehow.

Meanwhile, the only Pokémon-like games I can think of for Switch are Sword/Shield, Nexomon Extinction (which was surprisingly good) and the upcoming Pearl/Diamond remakes.

Pokémon has dominated that market for so long that no-one dares attempt to compete with them. Well, apart for the occasional Dragon Quest Monsters games, but good luck getting those outside of Japan!

EDIT: BTW, you know why they chose Cyndaquil as the fire starter? Because all the fire starters don't fit into a Feudal Japan setting at all. Cyndaquil's only there because they wanted a Gen 2 starter.

How do I know this? Because you can't get the starters from Gen 2, Gen 5 and Gen 7 in Sword/Shield, even with the DLC.

They planned that trio for a while.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Glen-i

[Sheikah]

Ooooh, yay... Old games! Old mechanics! Exciting!
I could far easily suggest the hundreds of recent open-world games for you to play instead. I could throw a rock and I'll probably hit one somehow.
Meanwhile, the only Pokémon-like games I can think of for Switch are Sword/Shield, Nexomon Extinction (which was surprisingly good) and the upcoming Pearl/Diamond remakes.
Pokémon has dominated that market for so long that no-one dares attempt to compete with them. Well, apart for the occasional Dragon Quest Monsters games, but good luck getting those outside of Japan!
EDIT: BTW, you know why they chose Cyndaquil as the fire starter? Because all the fire starters don't fit into a Feudal Japan setting at all. Cyndaquil's only there because they wanted a Gen 2 starter.
How do I know this? Because you can't get the starters from Gen 2, Gen 5 and Gen 7 in Sword/Shield, even with the DLC.
They planned that trio for a while.

"Old mechanics - exciting!" The irony of such a statement when it comes to main Pokémon games. [emoji14]

[Dcubed]

51 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

"Old mechanics - exciting!" The irony of such a statement when it comes to main Pokémon games.

I'd kill for a brand new proper, full on, uncompromised classic Pokemon game! We haven't had one since Black/White in 2010!!

Every subsequent game has been continuously and progressively compromised by the need for better graphics and more complex hardware.  I've watched the series' level design transform from complex & intricate mazes & dungeons into glorified corridors over the past 10 years; and have watched as the interesting side quests, minigames and meaningful twists on battle gameplay have continued to fade away with each subsequent game.  Pokemon Sword/Shield, as much as I liked what they tried to do with it, was a mere shadow of what Pokemon Black/White were in terms of gameplay!

And now ALL of that is gone with Pokemon Legends.

Not hard to see why some of us are upset really, is it?

Edited February 27, 2021 by Dcubed

[Sheikah]

I'd kill for a brand new proper, full on, uncompromised classic Pokemon game! We haven't had one since Black/White in 2010!

Every subsequent game has been continuously and progressively compromised by the need for better graphics and more complex hardware.  I've watched the series' level design transform from complex & intricate mazes & dungeons into glorified corridors over the past 10 years; and have watched as the interesting side quests, minigames and meaningful twists on battle gameplay have continued to fade away with each subsequent game.  Pokemon Sword/Shield, as much as I liked what they tried to do with it, was a mere shadow of what Pokemon Black/White were in terms of gameplay!

And now ALL of that is gone with Pokemon Legends.

Not hard to see why some of us are upset really, is it?

It's very hard for me to see why people are upset, to be honest. Pokémon has been stale for a long time. I've never known a series to copy the same things between games to the same extent Pokémon does. Picking from the same types of 3 Pokémon as a starter, fighting gyms for badges, fighting the Elite Four, getting the tucked away legendary and fighting some Team Rocket knock off along the way.

 

You're saying "we haven't had X since 2010" but even by that point you had many sequels that had all done more or less the same thing. And I'd argue there's still a lot of fundamental things similar between the new games, too. I think some people are just stubborn when it comes to change to be honest.

[Jonnas]

4 hours ago, Glen-i said:

EDIT: BTW, you know why they chose Cyndaquil as the fire starter? Because all the fire starters don't fit into a Feudal Japan setting at all. Cyndaquil's only there because they wanted a Gen 2 starter.

How do I know this? Because you can't get the starters from Gen 2, Gen 5 and Gen 7 in Sword/Shield, even with the DLC.

They planned that trio for a while.

"They chose Cyndaquil because they planned it for a while" is not a reason. What you said is merely proof that they chose him a while ago, but not why.

The likely actual reason is because Johto is the "traditionally Japanese" setting. They wanted to keep a link to that region just in case. Maybe they'll go for a Legends: Ho-oh game at some point.

[Ashley]

1 hour ago, Jonnas said:

 

The likely actual reason is because Johto is the "traditionally Japanese" setting. They wanted to keep a link to that region just in case. Maybe they'll go for a Legends: Ho-oh game at some point.

Hopefully not with that name as it's clunky to say. 

[Glen-i]

2 hours ago, Sheikah said:

It's very hard for me to see why people are upset, to be honest. Pokémon has been stale for a long time. I've never known a series to copy the same things between games to the same extent Pokémon does. Picking from the same types of 3 Pokémon as a starter, fighting gyms for badges, fighting the Elite Four, getting the tucked away legendary and fighting some Team Rocket knock off along the way.

I'm not going to get into all the gradual changes to the mechanics over each entry, because I already made a thread ages ago doing just that.

If you think all Pokémon games are the same, then there's no point in trying to say otherwise.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Glen-i

[Julius]

52 minutes ago, Ashley said:

Hopefully not with that name as it's clunky to say. 

Yeah, because Pokémon Legends: Arceus rolls off the tongue  half of the fans still have no idea if they're pronouncing it right! 

2 hours ago, Jonnas said:

The likely actual reason is because Johto is the "traditionally Japanese" setting. They wanted to keep a link to that region just in case. Maybe they'll go for a Legends: Ho-oh game at some point.

I think, seeing as they're going for a mythical Pokémon this time around, that's what we'd see moving forwards if the Legends series continues, so a return to Johto would probably mean a Legends: Celebi title instead? And I mean I'd be down to go back to Johto now we're getting the chance to go back to Sinnoh. I'm just saying, but a time-travelling game to some extent (the Celebi aspect, even if it's just in an ancient Ilex Forest) and the history of the region (Burned/Brass Tower, Bell Tower, Whirl Islands, Kimono Girls, Kurt and his berry balls et al) would be awesome. 

Also, and I said it before: Legends games set in Unova for the ancient war and the original dragon story, and one set in Kalos for their war, would be awesome. 

That being said, I kind of expect them to have a return to Johto be the next pair of Let's Go games, though it depends entirely on where they're at by that point. I could honestly see them being outsourced to third parties if that's something they continue with after the Diamond & Pearl remakes, too, which would buy them plenty of time to figure out and execute on Gen IX (which they could feasibly push all the way to 2024 if they play their cards right). 

Back to the starters, though, I think the really simply reason we're getting Cyndaquil and Oshawott in particular is because, after we get the Diamond & Pearl remakes, they belong to the starting trios next in line for remakes. The reason they chose these three specifically from their trios might have to do with lore and the inspiration for their designs, but it's been a long time since they've been the focus of marketing campaigns, so I just think it makes financial sense above all else. Rowlet, of course, is the exception to this, but it being part of the 20th anniversary celebrations in a big way and it honestly just being more marketable, in my opinion, than Chespin, is the likely reason it got the nod over it. 

Oh, and also, I almost expect more Johto links in this game, just from a lore perspective, because of the Sinjoh Ruins event we got in HeartGold & SoulSilver, and how that ties Sinnoh, Johto, and Arceus all together in a way which this game could very easily build upon. 

[RedShell]

Not saying those that aren't initially digging the new direction are wrong to be annoyed about it, but I will say this... back when Yakuza 7 (aka Yakuza: Like a Dragon) was revealed to be a turn-based RPG instead of the usual real-time brawler, I was not exactly over the moon about it. Fast forward to having actually played it, and it was one of the most enjoyable games in the entire series!

So yeah, it's best to just wait and see how things pans out, the final product could surprise you.

Plus, everyone should be far more concerned about Game Freak getting it running above 15 fps at this point. Maybe they should give Panic Button a call.  

[Jonnas]

14 minutes ago, Julius said:

I think, seeing as they're going for a mythical Pokémon this time around, that's what we'd see moving forwards if the Legends series continues, so a return to Johto would probably mean a Legends: Celebi title instead? And I mean I'd be down to go back to Johto now we're getting the chance to go back to Sinnoh. I'm just saying, but a time-travelling game to some extent (the Celebi aspect, even if it's just in an ancient Ilex Forest) and the history of the region (Burned/Brass Tower, Bell Tower, Whirl Islands, Kimono Girls, Kurt and his berry balls et al) would be awesome.

I normally don't associate open world adventures with time travelling. Time travel seems like the sort of thing to use on plot-driven narratives. But hey, maybe something like a Timestone variant (see: Skyward Sword) could make it work. Will we finally open the GS ball?

I mentioned Ho-oh because he's the most closely associated with the history of the region (the burned tower, the creation of Raikou/Entei/Suicune, Lugia's exodus, etc.). Celebi's kind of incidental and mysterious, chilling in his chillex forest. I haven't played the remakes, so I don't know how connected Sinnoh is, but if Ho-oh had his feathers on it, then all the more reason!

Edited February 27, 2021 by Jonnas

[Sheikah]

I'm not going to get into all the gradual changes to the mechanics over each entry, because I already made a thread ages ago doing just that. If you think all Pokémon games are the same, then there's no point in trying to say otherwise.

Gradual changes to mechanics aren't big changes though. The things I listed are very core parts of the series that hardly change much between each game. As I say, there's not another series I can think of that stays so fundamentally similar between entries, right down to the main character's motivation. Would it kill them to ditch having to pick a starter Pokémon at the beginning, and those same 3 types? For it not to be about fighting people in gyms and beating the league? For there not to be some rival to pick the starter strong against yours, and for the battling to not be turn based, 4-move fighting? For it not to be a case where you weaken Pokémon then throw a pokeball at them (in the main series)? There's just so much they could shake up but they hardly ever do! 

I know you love Pokémon and went into granular details about how mechanics differ, but the trouble is really that the fundamental mechanics and story/motivation doesn't really change, at least not substantially.

[Ronnie]

7 hours ago, Sheikah said:

Gradual changes to mechanics aren't big changes though. The things I listed are very core parts of the series that hardly change much between each game. As I say, there's not another series I can think of that stays so fundamentally similar between entries, right down to the main character's motivation. Would it kill them to ditch having to pick a starter Pokémon at the beginning, and those same 3 types? For it not to be about fighting people in gyms and beating the league? For there not to be some rival to pick the starter strong against yours, and for the battling to not be turn based, 4-move fighting? For it not to be a case where you weaken Pokémon then throw a pokeball at them (in the main series)? There's just so much they could shake up but they hardly ever do! 

I know you love Pokémon and went into granular details about how mechanics differ, but the trouble is really that the fundamental mechanics and story/motivation doesn't really change, at least not substantially.

You forgot... 'for you not to start in your bedroom and say goodbye to your mom before starting your journey'

tbf I don't know if that's actually how all the games start, probably not, I just get that impression 

[Glen-i]

15 hours ago, Sheikah said:

Gradual changes to mechanics aren't big changes though. The things I listed are very core parts of the series that hardly change much between each game. As I say, there's not another series I can think of that stays so fundamentally similar between entries, right down to the main character's motivation. Would it kill them to ditch having to pick a starter Pokémon at the beginning, and those same 3 types? For it not to be about fighting people in gyms and beating the league? For there not to be some rival to pick the starter strong against yours, and for the battling to not be turn based, 4-move fighting? For it not to be a case where you weaken Pokémon then throw a pokeball at them (in the main series)? There's just so much they could shake up but they hardly ever do! 

I know you love Pokémon and went into granular details about how mechanics differ, but the trouble is really that the fundamental mechanics and story/motivation doesn't really change, at least not substantially.

My issue here is not that it's switching it up, (I mean, the fact that I like Paper Mario: Colour Splash and the original should be testament to that) is that it's changing from something that barely any other gaming franchise provides into something that you see all over the place these days, a big massive world for you to explore that has barely any direction or urgency.

It's a case of jumping on the bandwagon and it's just so uninspiring. And to reiterate a point I keep on making, open-world games are just so. Damn. Boring.

Skyrim, Xenoblade Chronicles X, Breath of the Wild. I played all three and they're just so mind-numbingly dull. Walk somewhere for an hour desperately looking for something interesting while periodically getting hounded by enemies that you've long since stopped bothering with because it's just not worth the effort anymore.

I started Bravely Default II yesterday and it felt so good to leave a town and go for a 10 second run towards the place I needed to go. A dungeon, that's not too big, but still has a few optional routes to go down if I so choose, while I take part in some solid turn-based battles. And then there was a boss at the end where I had to take my setup and see if it worked against what they threw at me.

That took me around half an hour, you'd be really lucky to finish the first shrine in BotW in that time.

Now, I'm not like @Dcubed there. I think he's overreacting and I don't think traditional Pokémon is dead, so to speak. But I just don't buy that it's somehow ambitious to blatantly ape what's the in thing these days. Especially when your series has carved itself a niche that no-one else is willing to fill.

[Dcubed]

Well said! Copying the current popular industry trends is NOT ambitious in the slightest.  It is the laziest, most rote thing that a developer can do.

And it's not like there aren't literally hundreds of open world games out there that play near identically already! Why kill off something unique like Pokemon, only to turn it into the same drudgery open world sludge that basically everything else already is?

There is nothing more boring than an open world game to me.  I will never understand how people can be wowed by gigantic open worlds with absolutely nothing interesting going on in them!

WOW!! HOW FUCKING EXCITING!!

I will always prefer a much smaller and tightly focused game over a massive, sprawling game that has its butter scraped over 1,000 slices of bread.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Dcubed

[Julius]

[Mandalore]

An open world game can be ambitious, it's more a question of does Gamefreak have that ambition?

Tell me that's procedurally generated open world rubbish. If only you could have a city like that to explore in a Pokémon game!