Xbox Series S | X Console Discussion

[Dcubed]

That was about as clear as mud.  Only the four titles? Yeah fucking right, it's only been about an hour and you're already hinting at more to come...

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You mentioned that Starfield and Indiana Jones aren't part of the four despite rumors, but will those ever come to PS5? Can you rule that out?
I don't think we should as an industry ever rule out a game going to any other platform. We're focused on these four games and learning from the experience.
But I don't want to create a false expectation on those other platforms that this is somehow the first four to get over the dam and then the dam's going to open and that everything else is coming, that's not the plan today. I also don't want to mislead customers on those other platforms. We're launching these four games, and we're excited about it. We're excited about the announce and everything else, but we'll see what happens for our business.

I will just go ahead and assume that everything is coming to Nintendo and Sony platforms eventually, nothing is off the table anymore.

Xbox owners really needed straight-forward communication here.  Instead they're just letting speculation and FUD continue spreading unabated.  A disaster of communication.  They're even hinting at new hardware, so they clearly have some plans that they could've communicated here, but instead they continue to mince their words.  Cowardly behaviour.

Edited February 15, 2024 by Dcubed

[Julius]

Turns out that 34 million figure for Game Pass includes Core members, too. 

Cheeky bastards. 

Based on what we've heard previously (I think Core was ~11 to 12 million at that point), at best, Game Pass Ultimate subscriptions have barely increased, and at worst, they've actually gone down. So that's a big yikes. 

17 hours ago, darksnowman said:

Imo, should have said we don't comment on rumours and positioned themselves above it all from the getgo and let the insatiable rumourmill eat itself alive. Then again, the only thing worse than people talking about you is people not talking about you. 

Hard disagree. 

Xbox saying nothing while their incredibly vocal minority of diehard fans go scorched earth and start trading in their consoles and posting about it online would have been a terrible look considering that they've decided to get buddy-buddy with what is now a fairly toxic diehard community; both PlayStation and Nintendo staff have backed off significantly over the last decade or so in terms of fan interactions and encouraging the idea that the relationship between them and us is anything other than transactional. 

Xbox are also absolutely abysmal at communication, and they have a history of being absolutely abysmal at communication.  Anything other than an attempt at clarifying this mess, especially when it seems to be stuff perpetuated outwards from within their own walls, wouldn't have helped their situation at all. I've said it before, but the fact that it's like they were seriously about to go ahead with a mid-gen "our games are no longer exclusive and are coming elsewhere!" is absolutely stupid. It's exactly why I believe that's why it would have happened if not for the purported leaks and subsequent blowback. 

As a company in a primarily creativity-driven industry, there is something worse than people not talking about you, and that's your most loyal and diehard fans (customers) turning against you. Poor word of mouth is absolutely damning in this day and age. 

17 hours ago, darksnowman said:

T'Internet'd still be raging if Xbox put on an E3-style presser to announce they're shutting up shop with immediate effect so there's no winning in this business.

There is winning in this business, and right now, it comes about when you make a solid piece of hardware (which Xbox does have) and consistently release quality exclusive titles (first-party developed or through third-party deals) for said piece of hardware which are strong enough to sell the brand. 

While I do agree with Phil that exclusive titles are going to be less of a differentiator in 5-10 years, I feel like there's zero point looking that far ahead when you are losing NOW; Xbox are in a bad position NOW. Game Pass growth is stagnating and has been for a good while, and these Series X and PS5 are virtually at parity when it comes to performance, and so the biggest differentiators right now is the existing buy-in when it comes to digital libraries (which Phil admits they lost out on last generation) and exclusive titles. They are important now, and I think it creates this important cycle - while hardware sales are still important and not everything is coming to PC on Day 1 on PlayStation - later in the gen where you'll be able to pick up a PS5 at a bargain price with excellent AAA titles bundled in from many years before. It was similar at the launch of the PS5 with the PlayStation Plus Collection - a collection of some of the best first- and third-party games released last gen, as a great way to whet the appetites of people new to the platform. 

If Xbox were pulling out of the business I think it would be silly to expect an E3-style presser, but a brief 5-10 minute monologue with Phil CLEARLY explaining what's going on and what the game plan is would've been much better than what we got yesterday. 

For me, seeing how terribly Xbox handles these things just really highlights and strengthens for me the concept of a Nintendo Direct - and this idea that Nintendo want to communicate to YOU, the player; you know, a persuasion technique you learn in English classes in primary school?! - and shows how ahead of the curb Nintendo are on some things. 

This should have been Phil against a white background giving a sense of direction communication to fans. To file in Bond and Booty and disseminate this info - and not even complete info, because we got way more detail afterwards which muddied the waters again! - via a podcast where you sit on a couch and don't look at the camera and through to the people watching says so much.

It's part of why Xbox feels so corporate and are so bad at these things, they scream "We're with you! We're gamers! We're for the players!" and then give the most sterile, least passionate, and most incredibly murky clarification possible, in a set attempting to be chill and relaxing when your fans right now are anything but? Look at the camera. Say you're angry about the leaks. Apologise for the delay in correcting these details, and be honest if plans have changed as a result. The best way to be for your consumers is to act it, not say it. 

They 100% should've looked back at what Nintendo did with the Prime 4 delay:

Anyways, rant over.

Xbox aren't going to learn, and I'm sure there will be consequences for that further down the line. I want to get to a point where I can't say "no" to their consoles and Game Pass - I've said so all generation - and yet I don't think they could continue to make their platform less appealing for me if they tried. Hearing corporate go "we are where all the big games are!" when you've had the weakest lineup of exclusive titles this generation just sums it all up for me. They don't care. There's no hunger in their eyes. 

As @Dcubed rightly said, I think they're cowards and beyond stupid with how they've handled this. 

[Hero-of-Time]

Chris Dring talking about what he seen at GDC.

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With Xbox, I've heard from a very prominent company and one not so prominent that Xbox's performance in Europe is flatlining. You can follow our monthly coverage in the games market and you can see Xbox's sales are falling and it's fell all throughout last year and it's falling even harder this year.

The major company who released a big game last year said they don't know why they bother supporting it. We've mentioned in a previous podcast that retailers are considering or have began cutting back Xbox stock on their shelves, hardware & games... and now you've got third-party publishers going: "We're putting a lot of effort into creating an Xbox Series S/X version of a game where to be honest with you the market for us is PC and PS5"

And with Xbox putting some of the games on PS5, I understand the majority of them will be coming across at some point, assuming, you know, it progresses as Xbox believes it probably will. I think Xbox is in real trouble as a hardware manufacturer. And that was the thing that came out of GDC for me, because I always just thought, I've always been of the belief that it is the Game Pass delivery system, it's got a good UI, it's got a good controller, if you like Xbox games it's probably the best way to play them, etc. I thought it would be fine but then I didn't really factor in that some developers and publishers might just go, yeah I don't, you know, is there any point? And that is when you can lose it.

I was watching Michael Pachter's podcast and he was talking about how it's all about GamePass for Xbox, yet I've actually been hearing that Microsoft's been putting less focus on GamePass.

If true, it shows once again that GamePass just hasn't done what they intended it to do. It hasn't drove console sales and also stop software sales.

From the sounds of it, Microsoft look to be pivoting to be a standard 3rd party publisher. If they can see a good return on other consoles by selling their games at a standard price then that may be the final nail in the coffin.

[Julius]

I know it's been posted in the Developer Massacre thread, but for posterity's sake given how it reshapes a pretty decent chunk of their Zenimax acquisition: Arkane Austin, Tagon Game works, Alpha Dog Games (not Studios) and Roundhouse Studios (not Games; they'll be merging with Zenimax Online Studios) are being shut down by Xbox. 

Shocking. 

Edited May 7, 2024 by Julius
Edited to update Alpha Dog and Roundhouse studio names, shame on you for misleading me Schreier!

[Julius]

Oh my word they've just announced a new controller variant:

I know it's probably unfortunate timing but read the room Xbox COME ONNNNNN

[darksnowman]

2 hours ago, Julius said:

Oh my word they've just announced a new controller variant:

I know it's probably unfortunate timing but read the room Xbox COME ONNNNNN

Indeed. Announcing the announcement would suffice.

[Dcubed]

Insane action that Xbox are taking today.  The absolute last thing they need to be doing is reducing their output, and especially not cutting the developer responsible for their most critically acclaimed first party game since the Xbox 360 era.

I seriously question whether or not they're planning on launching another console if they're gonna be taking actions like this.  Feels like they're just giving up now.

[Hero-of-Time]

Yesterday, Jeff Grubb spoke briefly about how Perfect dark is coming along.

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"The fallout from this (today's layoffs), been hearing more and more.. been hearing for years that Perfect Dark is in a rough state, sounds like it's in a very rough state"

"And it doesn't sound like it's really come together in any way since then (since the announcement) and like Crystal Dynamics coming on board to come help on that.."

Regarding first person shooter aspect:

"It sounds like they don't even know if that's what they want to do with that"

 

Just what the heck has been going on over at Microsoft's studios over this past generation? It seems like a lot of stuff is just stuck in development hell.

[Hero-of-Time]

The hits just keep on coming.

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Microsoft has also had internal debates about whether to put new releases of Call of Duty into Game Pass. I understand this is a debate that has been ongoing internally for quite some time, with concerns from some that the revenue that Call of Duty typically generates for Activision Blizzard will be undermined by Game Pass.

I'm told that Microsoft has also considered increasing the price of Game Pass Ultimate again. These are only considerations, so a final decision could mean we still see a future Call of Duty release appear in most versions of Game Pass. The debate internally reflects the fact Microsoft's Xbox strategy has shifted from just delivering its games exclusively into Game Pass to considering bringing more Xbox games to multiple platforms.

 

[Julius]

And another hit to add to the seemingly neverending list: here's Matt Booty saying that Xbox needs more smaller games which give them prestige, just a day after Tango Gameworks shut up shop despite the immense success of a small, prestigious game going by the name of Hi-Fi Rush.

Per The Verge: 

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Today, one day after Microsoft announced that it would shut down four of its games studios, Matt Booty, head of Xbox Game Studios, held a town hall to discuss the division's future goals. "We need smaller games that give us prestige and awards," Booty told employees, according to internal remarks shared with The Verge.

For some listeners on the call, it was a surprising goal: Microsoft had just shut down the Japanese developer Tango Gameworks, which was coming off the small, prestigious hit title Hi-Fi Rush.

This just in, Tango's response in the form of a GIF:

There's no question anymore, the heads of Xbox are certifiable idiots, right? Did they confuse Tango with someone else before signing the paperwork to shut up shop? Confuse Hi-Fi for Halo? What on Earth is happening over there? 

[Hero-of-Time]

For me, the mess that has occurred over the past few days has basically been because of the Game Pass model. The thing was destined to fail and cause issues further down the line and now here we are. I mean, subscription services across the board are not seeing any real growth.

The plan clearly was to buy up all of these studios to bolster the GP line up, which in turn they would hope would bring in more subscribers. This didn't happen. They then cultured their own userbase to become adverse to actually buying games by releasing their 1st party output for free. Development costs have gone through the roof to the point where selling millions of copies doesn't break even. Add to the fact that this was all on a failed console and you have a recipe for disaster and ultimately, it was the poor studios and developers who have suffered for MS gambling on Game Pass.

I get that people jumped on Game Pass because it was cheap and offered a load of games for very little but it completely devalued software and it's caused a lot of damage to the industry. Had Game Pass not been a thing then there would have been no need for the aggressive acquisitions in the first place. Time to whip out my Simpsons gif again.

 

[Dcubed]

Game Pass is Xbox's only real legitimate USP though.  Otherwise, there's nothing else that it offers that isn't already offered by Playstation.  There's a reason why the consoles are commonly nicknamed "The HD Twins" after all.

Ultimately, this is the culmination of what Iwata was warning about back in the early 2000s.   He warned that the lack of gameplay differentiation between consoles would ultimately result in games becoming a comoddity business, where lower prices would be the only way to meaningfully differentiate your public offering.  And he was right.

The problem with Game Pass is that its growth potential is directly tied to Xbox hardware sales, and that has now become a bit of a chicken & egg situation.  Can't sell subs to people who don't have Xboxes, but they haven't got enough exclusive software to bring people to the platform, so hardware sales continue to stall.  Price drops remain their only real option, but that takes away the revenue needed to sustain their expensive (and chaotic) development pipeline.

[Hero-of-Time]

2 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

Game Pass is Xbox's only real legitimate USP though. 

They could compete by, you know, actually making good games. For two generations they have floundered with their releases, despite having some big IP in their control. Also, if you weren't a UK or US customer then you were flat out of luck. There's a reason they have always struggled in other countries and that's because they gave signs that they simply didn't care about them at all.

Game Pass was the easy option for them. They could use their war chest to buy up companies and fill the catalogue, hopefully brining people into their ecosystem. It's blown up in their face. There's a real danger of them going fully 3rd party at this point and had they just done this in the first place then we wouldn't have seen the developer casualties we are seeing now. Many have lost their jobs because of this gamble.

[drahkon]

This entire news cycle...

"I made this, now fuck off" would be the apt last speech bubble...

[Sheikah]

1 hour ago, Dcubed said:

Game Pass is Xbox's only real legitimate USP though.  Otherwise, there's nothing else that it offers that isn't already offered by Playstation.  There's a reason why the consoles are commonly nicknamed "The HD Twins" after all.

Perhaps controversial opinion but IMO PlayStation Plus Extra (not Premium, that's not worth it) is better than Game Pass. Especially now that Microsoft have clamped down a lot on the practically "free" Game Pass workaround.

Game Pass might have more titles overall and generally newer ones but Plus Extra has a bunch of first party Sony games on it which are better than Microsoft's own Series S/X first party titles. And you also get the monthly games to keep with PlayStation Plus sub which you no longer get with Game Pass.

At the very least you can't really say that Game Pass is a USP given that Sony have a comparable service. And the "day 1 on Game Pass" doesn't really mean anything when the small smattering of first party games they've released over the last few years have mostly ranged from bad to ok.

[Hero-of-Time]

Hilarious!

https://www.pushsquare.com/news/2024/05/vengeful-fallout-76-players-keep-nuking-phil-spencers-camp

Edited May 10, 2024 by Hero-of-Time

[Nicktendo]

https://www.eurogamer.net/what-is-the-point-of-xbox

Really good article on the current state of affairs at team Green. 

The Lionhead stuff is shocking, but it's not really surprising that they have learned nothing. 

[Hero-of-Time]

So they sold less than a million units in a quarter. I just don't see how the Xbox brand survives after this gen. What would a new console do when your brand is this toxic?

 

[Sheikah]

So they sold less than a million units in a quarter. I just don't see how the Xbox brand survives after this gen. What would a new console do when your brand is this toxic?
 

Yeah, they're done. At least as a traditional console manufacturer. One idiotic decision after another really.

[bob]

Chris Dring? Jeff Grubb? Matt Booty?

These aren't all real people right? They're made up faceless PR entities surely? Can't even give them normal convincing names.

[Nicktendo]

10 minutes ago, bob said:

Chris Dring? Jeff Grubb? Matt Booty?

These aren't all real people right? They're made up faceless PR entities surely? Can't even give them normal convincing names.

Matt Booty is the worst of them. Supposed to be head of Microsoft Game Studios and can't even get a team's name correct on occasion. The other two don't work for Xbox to be honest, just Twitter journos and leakers. 

I think this is the death knell for Xbox as a console manufacturer. Wii U was a bigger disaster, no doubt, but Nintendo had some solid games from 2014 onwards and manged to steer the ship out of troubled waters with the Switch. I don't see Xbox releasing anything of note in the next 12-18 months to turn this around, even if they do try a hail mary and release new hardware or a handheld. It's over. They have proven consistently that they couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. The management, or lack thereof, of their games and their studios is absolutely shocking. Phil Spencer, Sarah Bond, Matt Booty and Aaron Greenberg should all have been fired long ago. They don't even have the hardcore fans on board anymore. I know these directives are all likely coming down from MS themselves, but Phil and co have had years now to just release some decent games and they have not done it outside of one or two in a sea of utter failures. 

[Sheikah]

Chris Dring? Jeff Grubb? Matt Booty?

These aren't all real people right? They're made up faceless PR entities surely? Can't even give them normal convincing names.

Jeff Grubb makes me think of the caterpillar from A Bug's Life.

[Dcubed]

https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/microsofts-quest-for-short-term-dollardollardollar-is-doing-long-term-damage-to-windows-surface-xbox-and-beyond
 

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The plan to move Xbox games to other platforms is codenamed "Latitude" internally, and I know there's debate and unease at Microsoft about whether or not this is a good idea. More upcoming Microsoft-owned games slated for PlayStation are already being developed. While it's true Microsoft is a prolific publisher on PlayStation already, it has typically revolved around specific franchises like Minecraft. From what I've heard, Microsoft is pushing for no "red line" for what games could come to PlayStation, and it all revolves around Satya Nadella and CFO Amy Hood's plans to increase every department's margins.

Sounds like we’re coming close to the end of the line for Xbox.

What a shame, such a waste of potential.

If they want to make the biggest splash possible as a 3rd party publisher though, they should probably wait until the release of Switch 2; come swinging right out of the gate with the likes of the complete Halo, Gears and Forza series during the launch window and immediately establish themselves as the biggest 3rd party on Nintendo’s next console.  No doubt they’d get the sweetheart royalty deal to end all sweetheart royalty deals if they do this.

[Dcubed]

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2024/05/28/play-call-of-duty-black-ops-6-day-one-game-pass/

So much for a COD price bump to Game Pass.

Well, this is it.  If anything is gonna give Game Pass a bump in subscribers on the current hardware, it's now or never.

[Sheikah]

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2024/05/28/play-call-of-duty-black-ops-6-day-one-game-pass/
So much for a COD price bump to Game Pass.
Well, this is it.  If anything is gonna give Game Pass a bump in subscribers on the current hardware, it's now or never.

It doesn't say they won't put up the sub price does it, unless I missed it.