Playstation 5 Console Discussion

[Dcubed]

6 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

I wasn't expecting much and it still under-delivered. 100 quid a year for retro gaming? Yeah no thanks. 

Yeah, it is quite expensive.  Really depends on how big the actual library is (and the quality of the emulation) if it ends up being worth it.

Edit:  There's also a real big jump between PS Plus Essentials and PS Plus Extra! And only a small one from Extra to Premium...

Edited March 29, 2022 by Dcubed

[Hero-of-Time]

I need to see a list of the retro games on offer before I commit. Would love to see trophy support on them as well.

The price is a hefty one but I'm happy to fork out the cash if the content is there. For example, Disney+ went up by £20 this year but it's a service I always use and so i'll pay the price.  The size and quality of the library is going to make or break this service.

[Ronnie]

Just now, Dcubed said:

Yeah, it is quite expensive.  Really depends on how big the actual library is if it ends up being worth it.

It's tying the retro stuff to the most expensive tier that annoys me. Over the course of the PS5 life that's 5, 6 hundred quid, and you don't even get to own them.

Weird way to announce it overall, just some wordy blog-post short on details that matter like the library itself. Meh.

[Cube]

7 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

I need to see a list of the retro games on offer before I commit. Would love to see trophy support on them as well.

It's probably mostly the same games that were part of PS Now. The number of games quoted for each ("over 700" vs "740") is fairly close, so it will likely be PS Now games with a few extras.

[Dcubed]

6 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

It's tying the retro stuff to the most expensive tier that annoys me. Over the course of the PS5 life that's 5, 6 hundred quid, and you don't even get to own them.

Weird way to announce it overall, just some wordy blog-post short on details that matter like the library itself. Meh.

They're probably still negotiating rights at the moment; so they won't be ready to announce that yet.

Also worth noting that this will probably be a rolling and every expanding library, much like NSO and the PSN service before it; so what you get at launch won't be everything you'll ever get.  Quality emulation takes time to produce and perfect.

I just hope that Sony don't get bored and give up quickly like they did with their PS2 games on PS4 initiative.  The PS3's selection of downloadable PS2 games absolutely dwarfs the PS4's selection, which is just pathetic really.

[Hero-of-Time]

3 minutes ago, Cube said:

It's probably mostly the same games that were part of PS Now. The number of games quoted for each ("over 700" vs "740") is fairly close, so it will likely be PS Now games with a few extras.

This is a fair shout. If that is the case then imagine my money will be staying in my pocket. 

[Dcubed]

9 minutes ago, Cube said:

It's probably mostly the same games that were part of PS Now. The number of games quoted for each ("over 700" vs "740") is fairly close, so it will likely be PS Now games with a few extras.

If these PS1, PS2 and PSP games are indeed native releases and not cloud streamed? I wouldn't go assuming that...

There is significant engineering work needed to ensure that these games all work properly when running on PS4/PS5.  PS4/PS5 does not currently have a significant selection of PS1 or PSP games; while the current PS2 selection is well described as anemic at best (also worth noting that a big chunk of those PS2 Classics games that were released on PS4 flat out do not work properly on PS5).

I wouldn't expect a massive list of PS1/PS2/PSP games on day 1; but rather a library that continuously grows over time.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Dcubed

[Julius]

If I'm going to be downloading a bunch of PS1, PS2, and PSP games, they better get a bloomin' shift on with getting folders on the PS5  

I said it in my post just before the news dropped, but the lack of specifying which retro titles are coming doesn't exactly inspire confidence. Yes, we're a bit over 2 months away now from when this will be releasing, but this level of transparency (or lack thereof) is exactly what I don't think they need to be doing. I guess it starts a conversation for them, but it kind of reminds me of how a good chunk of people completely misinterpreted that the PS5 would only have BC for 100 titles, based on PlayStation's own poor wording and messaging. And how about potential for things like Share Play to co-op? A lot of questions, which I'm sure will be answered, but it's a shame they weren't more up front. Now we've got to put up with another two months of rumours and speculation. 

340 is a sizeable number of games across the PS1, PS2, PSP and PS3, going well beyond what I was trying to hope for and confirming that there's definitely going to be a good number of third party games included. But, of course, the question now is, which ones? That's going to be the absolute make-or-break for pretty much everyone, but the sheer quantity means that there's very likely something I can't easily get my hands on now that I'll be able to in June, and that's an exciting prospect. I'm definitely going to be holding fire on purchasing PS3 games now until we get some clarity on what, exactly, is coming. 

Weirdly, no technical details? I know they're not showing the service or games off today, but I'm surprised there's no mention of aspect ratio, resolution, etc., because the quality of emulation is going to be a huge in whether or not this works out. @Hero-of-Time right there with you crossing my fingers for trophy support, I know there was that patent a while back where they seemingly figured out how to retroactively add trophies to emulated games (by basing it on triggers in the games themselves), so yeah, all fingers and toes crossed for that. 

Hopefully we get a dedicated State of Play or something of that ilk in the next 4-6 weeks to provide some clarity on all of this. 

23 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

It's tying the retro stuff to the most expensive tier that annoys me. Over the course of the PS5 life that's 5, 6 hundred quid, and you don't even get to own them.

I mean, depending on the games included in the service, that could be a great deal (obviously, only if you're interested in checking out games that might be selling for an eyewatering premium in the secondhand market these days/weren't released over here in the first place). 

14 minutes ago, Cube said:

It's probably mostly the same games that were part of PS Now. The number of games quoted for each ("over 700" vs "740") is fairly close, so it will likely be PS Now games with a few extras.

If that does turn out to be the case, then yeah, my money would also be staying in my pocket. Guess we'll just have to wait and see, but the quality of the emulation, and of course the fact that some games from the PSP and PS1 libraries are being included (which I don't believe are on PS Now?), could still be huge. 

It's for this exact reason that they should have said as much as they could out of the gates. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Julius

[Hero-of-Time]

Good point about the second hand market, @Julius. Legend of Dragoon alone goes for around £100. Games like Suikoden, Silent Hill, Rival Schools, Megaman Legends, Strider 2 etc. also command very high prices. If you are interested in just one of those games then the service has paid for itself. Whether or not any of these actually show up on said service is the big question.

[Dcubed]

Trophy support has been a bit of a monkey's paw with PS4's PS2 game selection... it's a big part of the reason why the PS4's selection of PS2 games was so rubbish, as it can take between 2-3 months to add trophy support to a single game on average.

I'd much rather they ditch the idea and just give us the unaltered original games; means more time can be spent on improving emulation quality and ultimately game selection.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Dcubed

[Julius]

Worth mentioning that 12 months of PS Now has been pulled from the PS Store (in fact, the only remaining subscription is the 1 month subscription for £8.99), but can currently be picked up from eneba for €65 (around £55) and can be stacked. Probably not worth pulling the trigger on it until we have some clarity on what exactly is coming, but could be worth keeping an eye on. 

31 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

Whether or not any of these actually show up on said service is the big question.

That's the big thing. I know it's an easy hook for speculation, rumours, etc., to keep the conversation on this self-sustaining...but we've know about this for around 6 months now, and today they practically confirmed what we already somewhat expected from the original rumours/leak from Schreier. 

Big companies are weird  

This next bit isn't aimed at you H-o-T, but it's also worth mentioning separately, though, that a few here are only quoting £100/year for PS Premium when there are monthly and quarterly options available - which is strictly not the case for NSO's Expansion Pack. So, if you only have a few games you want to check out from the retro catalogue, you would have the flexibility to move between tiers, but naturally the longer subscriptions come at a discounted price. If some of these ultra rare games or games never released over here do come to the service, you could pay for three months, play them all, and then just go back to a lower tier? So even more bang for your buck than could potentially be the case with an annual subscription if you aren't interested in the long haul. 

30 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

Trophy support has been a bit of a monkey's paw with PS4's PS2 game selection... it's a big part of the reason why the PS4's selection of PS2 games was so rubbish, as it can take between 2-3 months to add trophy support to a single game on average.

I'd much rather they ditch the idea and just give us the unaltered original games; means more time can be spent on improving emulation quality and ultimately game selection.

To be fair, that article is from 2015, and the patents found and published last year imply that they've found a solution - should they actually choose to use it - which would be much faster.

From IGN's article which covered the patent last year:

Quote

Sony has patented the ability to add trophies to older, emulated games, potentially allowing the rewards to be added to titles that pre-date the Trophy system.

The patent was published on March 18 and spotted by the Bartman013 on the GamingLeaksAndRumours subreddit. The patent is described as a "Method and apparatus for awarding trophies," and describes how an emulated game could still trigger trophies "by comparing a memory value of the emulated game to a predetermined value and assigning the one or more trophies to the user based on the detected trophy trigger."

The patent's description talks about how the technology will allow Sony to award trophies in "previously released or sold video games, without modifying the original game." Essentially, this could allow for older titles to be retrofitted with trophies, so players can earn them in games that pre-date the feature, which was introduced with the PlayStation 3.

It also mentions how the system would perform validity checks on the code of older games to determine if criteria has been met to award players with trophies, by tracking disk access in-game and monitoring strings and frames. It also mentions Cloud computing, suggesting this technology could interface with the PlayStation Now service.

Either way, they've got the money and time to do both. Unfortunately, though, PS3 games being streamed rather than native makes me question how much money and time they actually wanted to invest in this service. 

Not saying it would have been easy, but if they wanted, I think they could have managed it. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Julius

[Dcubed]

Interesting quote from Jim Ryan here; gives a good impression of Sony's priorities here I reckon.

[Happenstance]

So basically what we all figured from the leaks then. I'm not too bothered on the pricing as you'll just be able to get it cheaper elsewhere like people do now. As with most people it'll depend on what games are on the service for if I subscribe but the last time I looked at the PS Now list I thought it looked ok.

A lot of my gaming priorities and planning at the moment however is shifting towards the Steam Deck and my PC so it'll depend how early in Q2 I get my Deck. If it's closer to June then I doubt I'll sub straight away.

[Jimbob]

They've mentioned that PSNow subscribers get a free upgrade to PS+ Premium.  But, no mention if PS+ subscribers get a similar upgrade, if that only to the Extra tier.

[Dcubed]

8 minutes ago, Jimbob said:

They've mentioned that PSNow subscribers get a free upgrade to PS+ Premium.  But, no mention if PS+ subscribers get a similar upgrade, if that only to the Extra tier.

PS+ subscribers would presumably just get put onto the equivilent PS+ Essentials tier I would imagine.

Sony can afford to give PSNow subscribers the free boost because so few people actually subscribed to that service to begin with; and they can hardly take away their current access to PS Now that they've already paid for without people (rightfully) rioting, so they don't really have much of a choice here since they don't have any other PS Now equivilent tier.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Dcubed

[Jimbob]

14 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

PS+ subscribers would presumably just get put onto the equivilent PS+ Essentials tier I would imagine.

Sony can afford to give PSNow subscribers the free boost because so few people actually subscribed to that service to begin with; and they can hardly take away their current access to PS Now that they've already paid for without people (rightfully) rioting, so they don't really have much of a choice here since they don't have any other PS Now equivilent tier.

Did read somewhere that current PS+ subs get upgraded to the Extra tier for no charge with what remains of the current PS+, but can't find a source.

I suppose the next question is, and i know it can't be answered now is, will Sony offer a discount for those on PS+ as it is to upgrade to the Premium tier (depending on what time you have left on your sub).  I doubt Sony will be nice enough to allow those who've stacked PS+ for a few years to get Premium to run that long.  Nintendo did similar with NSO if you upgraded to the Expansion Pass

[Eddage]

Quote

PlayStation Plus Extra
Benefits: 

• Provides all the benefits from the Essential tier
• Adds a catalog of up to 400* of the most enjoyable PS4 and PS5 games – including blockbuster hits from our PlayStation Studios catalog and third-party partners. Games in the Extra tier are downloadable for play.

This is the bit that interests me the most. As someone who NEVER buys games at launch anymore, due to both the cost and the fact I have a ridiculous back catalogue to get through, this could be perfect for me. If I'm interested in a game I usually wait until I can pick it up for around £20, but if by the time it's that cheap it will also be available on Extra then this definitely has the potential to save me money.

I guess it just depends how long it'll take from launch for games to start being available.

[Sheikah]

2 hours ago, Dcubed said:

If these PS1, PS2 and PSP games are indeed native releases and not cloud streamed? I wouldn't go assuming that...

There is significant engineering work needed to ensure that these games all work properly when running on PS4/PS5.  PS4/PS5 does not currently have a significant selection of PS1 or PSP games; while the current PS2 selection is well described as anemic at best (also worth noting that a big chunk of those PS2 Classics games that were released on PS4 flat out do not work properly on PS5).

I wouldn't expect a massive list of PS1/PS2/PSP games on day 1; but rather a library that continuously grows over time.

Well they said on the official website: "A catalog of beloved classic games available in both streaming and download options from the original PlayStation, PS2 and PSP generations".

Let's bear in mind that they almost got all PS4 games working on PS5 at launch, and that they could have been working on this for a good while. You'd think they'd have a pretty good emulator for PS1 games at least.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Sheikah

[Julius]

6 hours ago, Dcubed said:

Sony can afford to give PSNow subscribers the free boost because so few people actually subscribed to that service to begin with; and they can hardly take away their current access to PS Now that they've already paid for without people (rightfully) rioting, so they don't really have much of a choice here since they don't have any other PS Now equivilent tier.

What's worth mentioning is that more than 95% of PlayStation's 50+ million subscriptions are to PlayStation Plus, whereas less than 5% is to PlayStation Now:

In that context, it makes sense that those on PlayStation Now would be getting upgraded to premium, as the overwhelming likelihood that a customer with PlayStation Now also has PlayStation Plus in the first place. 

I am curious to see how existing PlayStation Plus subscriptions are handled, though. I have to imagine it'll be something like up to 50% off the annual subscription calculated pro rata, like with NSO's Expansion Pack. 

[Julius]

Alright then, I have a question: what does everyone think is going to happen to the PS3 digital storefront once these PS Plus changes happen in June? 

I ask because they were pretty keen to shut down the PS3 store along with the Vita and PSP stores last summer, but in the end only the PSP store was shuttered, with the other two left open - but nebulously with no closure date in sight - as a result of a very vocal backlash.

I think it's pretty clear in hindsight that they were doing this in preparation for the PS Plus changes, as was the case with PlayStation Now cards being pulled just a few months ago back in January. I wouldn't be surprised if the PS3 store was shuttered by the end of this year, if not by the end of this summer, or if they did something like pull games available on the service from the store. 

[Sheikah]

6 minutes ago, Julius said:

Alright then, I have a question: what does everyone think is going to happen to the PS3 digital storefront once these PS Plus changes happen in June? 

I ask because they were pretty keen to shut down the PS3 store along with the Vita and PSP stores last summer, but in the end only the PSP store was shuttered, with the other two left open - but nebulously with no closure date in sight - as a result of a very vocal backlash.

I think it's pretty clear in hindsight that they were doing this in preparation for the PS Plus changes, as was the case with PlayStation Now cards being pulled just a few months ago back in January. I wouldn't be surprised if the PS3 store was shuttered by the end of this year, if not by the end of this summer, or if they did something like pull games available on the service from the store. 

I think they will keep it going for a while because they've learned a lot of bad PR awaits them if they try close it again soon.

On a separate note @bob, what is your opinion on "shuttered"? When shut will obviously suffice.

[bob]

I think they will keep it going for a while because they've learned a lot of bad PR awaits them if they try close it again soon.
On a separate note [mention=229]bob[/mention], what is your opinion on "shuttered"? When shut will obviously suffice.

It's a different meaning. Shuttered means to close with a shutter, like a storefront at the end of the day. Invokes a different image than simply 'shut', which is more vague.

[Hero-of-Time]

PushSquare wrote a decent piece about the announcement of the new PS+ tiers.

https://www.pushsquare.com/features/reaction-sonys-biggest-problem-is-consumer-relations

Its an article I largely agree with. They haven't been the same since Jimbo took control and a lot of the ways they've handled announcements since his arrival have been poor.

Yesterdays announcement should have been a big blowout, with games listed, features talked about and footage shown but instead it's left more questions than answers. I mean, nobody was forcing their hand to announce anything, so why not just wait until you have something to show before speaking up?

[Julius]

3 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

PushSquare wrote a decent piece about the announcement of the new PS+ tiers.

https://www.pushsquare.com/features/reaction-sonys-biggest-problem-is-consumer-relations

Its an article I largely agree with. They haven't been the same since Jimbo took control and a lot of the ways they've handled announcements since his arrival have been poor.

Yesterdays announcement should have been a big blowout, with games listed, features talked about and footage shown but instead it's left more questions than answers. 

Yeah, that's a great article summarising a lot of thoughts I know a few of us have shared in here. We should be elated that legacy titles are coming to these systems, but instead we're left questioning the what, how and why of it all – which isn't our jobs as consumers. This is why transparency is so important, and they're really missing the mark with that. I was banging on yesterday about how they should just answer all of our questions before we get a chance to ask them, but well, that unfortunately hasn't happened. 

I don't think anyone shared it yet, but something I spotted going around from Jim Ryan's interview with Famitsu about the PS+ changes kind of says it all to me. 

Quote

Q: As for this new offering of the classic game, are there any additional features from the original version, such as support for higher frame rates, etc.?

Jim Ryan: More details to come, but I've heard from people who have played with it that it looks great on PlayStation 4 and 5. But it will depend on the title of the game.

Now, look, it's been translated through DeepL, so could be missing the mark...but it doesn't sound at all like he's even tested this himself. 

I think that's the thing that irks me. It's fine being a business person before being a fan of gaming, but look back at when these companies have excelled and you'll notice a pattern of the people at the heads of these meeting tables being fans of games themselves. Iwata. Layden. Phil Spencer. There are plenty more, I know, and they have businesses to run and at the end of the day that's what they're paid to do, but it's so abundantly obvious when the person calling the shots isn't a fan of games (be that playing them, or developing them, or at the best of times both!) almost first and foremost, because they're not answering the questions that we would have. 

What you get from that is a cold and almost despondent touch to a company which lacks conviction and foresight, because they aren't just trying to develop great games or services anymore, they're almost exclusively looking at the bottom line. And that's a dangerous place to be when you are in an industry which thrives off of creativity. 

3 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

I mean, nobody was forcing their hand to announce anything, so why not just wait until you have something to show before speaking up?

The only reason I think they've announced it now is that it's the end of the financial year tomorrow, it's the only reason that makes any real sense that I can think of. When I think of "old Sony", I think they either would have come out swinging yesterday (as we all know they should have), or smartly left the announcement until June, just after everyone's E3 and summer announcements, to steal the headlines.

The weird part to me is that while I'm sure they'll have their own internal meetings discussing EoY financials, shareholder meetings reflecting on the previous financial year as a whole are typically saved for the end of April/start of May, so I do feel there was a good 4 or 5 week window that we're just now heading into that they could have also announced this in, building up to that meeting 

[Hero-of-Time]

Yeah, Jim is a massive step down from both Shawn and Jack, both of which looked to be enjoying what they were doing. Jim just seems cold and calculated. He may do well for the business but from a consumer perspective he doesn't sit right with me.

His comment about how the games look and play is hilarious. Remember, this was the guy who questioned why anyone would want to play older/retro games when newer ones were on the market.