US Presidential Election 2016 - Nightmare Mode

[Ashley]

I don't think minorities have anything to fear from their neighbours or the media, certainly not in the way sections of the british press have treated them.

 

[tweet]796434898764476416[/tweet]

 

Hopefully an isolated incident but when you have a VP who wants to use conversion therapy it's no wonder calls to helplines apparently increased exponentially yesterday. There is a legitimate reason to fear I believe, not just for the LGBT+ community but others that have been attacked and insulted by Trump and his ilk.

[Rummy]

[tweet]796434898764476416[/tweet]

 

Hopefully an isolated incident but when you have a VP who wants to use conversion therapy it's no wonder calls to helplines apparently increased exponentially yesterday. There is a legitimate reason to fear I believe, not just for the LGBT+ community but others that have been attacked and insulted by Trump and his ilk.

 

Just as with Brexit, this is the sort of thing that upsets and worries me the most. I'm hoping however, that like Brexit, it may die down a bit. Generally it seems enough of the UK/US is taking notice of Brexit/Trump and I'm just kinda hoping(not entirely blindly) that the general strength of people and humanity will overcome it. Yes there's people across our societies who haven't moved on or are stuck in the past; but many many day to day people have progressed far from the older views ie gay(and before interracial) marriage and a lot of that is the youth of today; hopefully still going to be shaping tomorrow.

 

It's easy to knee-jerk to all this, but I'm with Nicktendo in that I don't think this will be grand disaster we're expecting quite just yet. I could be wrong, or maybe I'm just hopeful, but we'll see what time brings.

[gaggle64]

Worth noting - Hillary won every POC & LGBT demo except whites. Every non-LGBT white demographic voted Trump overwhelmingly regardless of wealth, age, education, profession, and gender. Hillary won voters earning less than $50k overall, Trump won everyone over $50k. I find it impossible impossible to accept any narrative that this was a working class revolt when the voting lines are so starkly aligned along racial boundaries and across class identities. Not to mention the nature of the candidate and his rhetoric.

Edited November 11, 2016 by gaggle64

[Nicktendo]

[tweet]796434898764476416[/tweet]

 

Hopefully an isolated incident but when you have a VP who wants to use conversion therapy it's no wonder calls to helplines apparently increased exponentially yesterday. There is a legitimate reason to fear I believe, not just for the LGBT+ community but others that have been attacked and insulted by Trump and his ilk.

While these kinds of attacks are disturbing and deeply unsettling, I feel the mainstream media in the US will do the opposite of the UK and continue to promote their country as an open and tolerant one and we won't see the sharp increase in hate crime we saw here. Everyone there is an immigrant after all. The mainstream media, especially television, is mostly liberal leaning in its overall message and it will likely be the less-respected, less widely consumed media sources such as talk radio that could try to fan the flames.

 

What you're very unlikely to have, for example, is a widely consumed piece of mass media pointing out someone's inadequacies to a do job simply because they are gay in front page fashion, as the Daily Mail attempted with the recent high court judges Brexit case, or huge, falsified headlines attacking and blaming people of colour and whipping up a frenzy.

 

The US will end up being the example for the UK in how to handle this kind of situation, because we are completely down the shitter in this respect.

[Ashley]

Just as with Brexit, this is the sort of thing that upsets and worries me the most. I'm hoping however, that like Brexit, it may die down a bit. Generally it seems enough of the UK/US is taking notice of Brexit/Trump and I'm just kinda hoping(not entirely blindly) that the general strength of people and humanity will overcome it. Yes there's people across our societies who haven't moved on or are stuck in the past; but many many day to day people have progressed far from the older views ie gay(and before interracial) marriage and a lot of that is the youth of today; hopefully still going to be shaping tomorrow.

 

It's easy to knee-jerk to all this, but I'm with Nicktendo in that I don't think this will be grand disaster we're expecting quite just yet. I could be wrong, or maybe I'm just hopeful, but we'll see what time brings.

 

While the youth may be more liberal the people in power, particularly now the Republicans control all and will elect a new senate, are anything but. This is the party that rebelled against trans being able to use bathrooms of their gender identity for fear that they'll be assaulting others while voting for someone that bragged to do just that.

 

They may not repeal rights (although I imagine they will), but they sure as hell will be less inclined to help large swarths of the population.

 

While these kinds of attacks are disturbing and deeply unsettling, I feel the mainstream media in the US will do the opposite of the UK and continue to promote their country as an open and tolerant one and we won't see the sharp increase in hate crime we saw here. Everyone there is an immigrant after all. The mainstream media, especially television, is mostly liberal leaning in its overall message and it will likely be the less-respected, less widely consumed media sources such as talk radio that could try to fan the flames.

 

What you're very unlikely to have, for example, is a widely consumed piece of mass media pointing out someone's inadequacies to a do job simply because they are gay in front page fashion, as the Daily Mail attempted with the recent high court judges Brexit case, or huge, falsified headlines attacking and blaming people of colour and whipping up a frenzy.

 

The US will end up being the example for the UK in how to handle this kind of situation, because we are completely down the shitter in this respect.

 

Hopefully, but then we have things like People magazine who several weeks ago had one of their reporters accuse Trump of assault and now they've come out with a fluff piece about the family. They can't ignore that he's there, but they can and should challenge his views and politics and this is not the best start. We'll have to see though.

 

And that is going to be part of the problem. People that have accused Trump will have to continue seeing his face everywhere. Have his actions legitimised by this vote. Repeat that pain daily, with a greater chance of being shouted down or ignored.

[ipaul]

When Brexit happened, though I voted remain, I could at least take some silver linings from the vote...it probably will be good for sovereignty, immigration is far too high and maybe this might lower it, long term it may even prove to be the right move for the economy.

 

I cannot see any positives from this. None. The best i can come up with is that he might try and protect American jobs and actually help rust belt folk, but I doubt it. What happens to NATO now? Will climate change be completely ignored? Will Russia be given a free pass to do whatever it likes? Will they try and do something with women's rights like abolish abortions?

 

I hope I'm wrong but it looks like an absolute fucking disaster. Never thought I'd be yearning for the halcyon days of George W Bush.

 

Also, I don't think Bernie would have fared much better. All they would have had to do is throw the socialist label at him and that would have been that.

Edited November 10, 2016 by ipaul

[sumo73]

The problem is we don't seem to accept out people's views or have the intelligence enough to debate with people without resorting into insults or fights. I've seen enough beef with people talking about video games so politics is another level that people get upset about.

 

Just as in Brexit there were attacks by both sides and in America the same thing has happened again. The media really don't give a damn, they just love a story and they are part of the problem.

 

Attacks on gay people or attacks on white people on who they might have voted for are completely wrong. I might not like the American vote but I accept it's results. Democracy has spoken even if most of us don't like it. My gf originally came from a country that still is a one party state, no democracy and no voting and very little voice. You try living in that.

 

Yes Hillary won the popular vote but that doesn't make her President. If the American system like this is so bad then why doesn't America fix it. I would include the superdelegates vs delegates oddness in this as well.

 

http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/man-severely-beaten-by-mob-shouting-you-voted-trump-6248405/

 

Oh and if you haven't seen the latest Jonathan Pie video regarding Trump (How & Why) I suggest you do.

Edited November 24, 2016 by sumo73
Original YT video was taken down but Metro article covers the same thing.

[somme]

It's like the voting system over here: no one in power will ever change it because it will reduce their chances of getting in next time.

 

They offered us an alternative voting system a few years ago but it was still rubbish and they didn't explain it to anyone.

[Happenstance]

[Nicktendo]

 

I love the Internet.

[Agent Gibbs]

 

Oh and if you haven't seen the latest Jonathan Pie video regarding Trump (How & Why) I suggest you do.

 

That Jonathan pie video is once again spot on, its something i've been trying to argue on GAF (arguing with a brick wall of indifference), liberalism is failing because its become smug, it feels it no longer needs to listen and engage with anyone who even has the slightest of differing views - anyone who doesn't immediately agree - closeted right wing, anyone centalist - closeted Right Wing, anyone who's right wing (not KKK extreme) - lying to themselves.

And society wise people are creating echo chambers with safe spaces and banning decenting views in education establishments where they are meant to learn and debate. Liberalism is failing because it has become intolerant and all you get when you say as much is people incorrectly wheeling out cliche's of strawmen, slipperly slopes or just resorting to blanket insults.

 

The right is rising because they are willing to talk to and listen and address genuine concerns and that has given them power to rise in Europe and America -immigration and genuine concerns have been dismissed by the established left wing governments and when someone comes along promising to listen and change things, regardless of some out their views, just like brexit they will choose between keeping things as crap as they are or risking change.

 

And now the question is will the left learn to be what it used to be? the voice of reason which debated made compromise and learnt? rather than being that of self righteous smugness

[Rummy]

The Jonathan Pie video really hit a mark for me. I've been trying to talk to people generally about it; I pose that people of ethnic origin, islamic faith, female gender etc have voted for Trump and to call all his supporters racists of biggots etc almost discounts the fact there are people out there who you might not have expected to vote for him, voting for him; and shouldn't we ask ourselves why? Hypothetical people, in a light-hearted conversation with people, and I've still seen the vitriol some people spout about these personally unknown people being 'idiots' or 'stupid' or reduced to such a level of absurd disrespect I'm actually quite amazed.

 

I agree with you Gibbs that the perceived 'left' are losing ground and failing. There's a whole middle we forget about in these false dichotomies and the 'right' is doing a better job of getting them on board because when they pose questions to the 'left' they may well get shouted down and called names or belittled or ridiculed. I find it astounding and can see it pushing us more into a tribalism we haven't had as much of recently imo.

 

 

 

AAAnyway - one thing I wondered which has half slipped the net(not entirely) but I've not seen talked about. I saw a tweet that was something along the lines of 'Now all the media who told you this wouldn't happen will tell you all the things are going to happen as a result of this happening' and it made me think: Are the traditional media losing power of influence? The media mostly didn't see this, nor Brexit, coming. A large majority for both have expressed shock and surprise at the outcome. If the media were saying this was never going - why did it? Were they reporting, or influencing did they fail, did they just get it wrong, is their world changing? With the ease of accessing and logging on to social media and the amount of time we spend on it, is it actually slowly breaking down the power of the traditional mainstream media; whether for better or worse??

[sumo73]

The Jonathan Pie video really hit a mark for me. I've been trying to talk to people generally about it; I pose that people of ethnic origin, islamic faith, female gender etc have voted for Trump and to call all his supporters racists of biggots etc almost discounts the fact there are people out there who you might not have expected to vote for him, voting for him; and shouldn't we ask ourselves why? Hypothetical people, in a light-hearted conversation with people, and I've still seen the vitriol some people spout about these personally unknown people being 'idiots' or 'stupid' or reduced to such a level of absurd disrespect I'm actually quite amazed.

 

I agree with you Gibbs that the perceived 'left' are losing ground and failing. There's a whole middle we forget about in these false dichotomies and the 'right' is doing a better job of getting them on board because when they pose questions to the 'left' they may well get shouted down and called names or belittled or ridiculed. I find it astounding and can see it pushing us more into a tribalism we haven't had as much of recently imo.

 

 

 

AAAnyway - one thing I wondered which has half slipped the net(not entirely) but I've not seen talked about. I saw a tweet that was something along the lines of 'Now all the media who told you this wouldn't happen will tell you all the things are going to happen as a result of this happening' and it made me think: Are the traditional media losing power of influence? The media mostly didn't see this, nor Brexit, coming. A large majority for both have expressed shock and surprise at the outcome. If the media were saying this was never going - why did it? Were they reporting, or influencing did they fail, did they just get it wrong, is their world changing? With the ease of accessing and logging on to social media and the amount of time we spend on it, is it actually slowly breaking down the power of the traditional mainstream media; whether for better or worse??

 

 

I'm glad that you mentioned the political middle because that's something that has over recent years become increasingly forgotten about. In America the stark view still is that you have to choose between the Republicans or the Democrats even if other parties exist. In the UK at least we more of a choice but when you hear that the Lib Dems want to block Brexit with their handful of just 8 MP's in the House of Commons and with their 109 members in the House of Lords, I wonder if that is democracy?

 

The middle has to stand for something and get people believing in it again but right now I don't know what it stands for any more. Do you?

 

Regarding the media both old and new I don't think any of them really saw what was coming in terms of Brexit or the recent Trump victory. They will be clueless next year when voters in Germany show what they think of Angela Merkel.

 

As with the Jonathan Pie video people said one thing to the pollsters and then voted with their hearts at the polling stations because that was one way they could vote without being labelled a bigot, racist....

 

Personally the old media still has a place in society. I still read a newspaper but it's not everyday. I try to get my information from a variety of sources rather than just one place. With new media we have more choice but I have to say they are making the same mistakes as the old media. When you have people saying 'The Young Turks' is the liberal version of Fox News then you have a possible issue. For me some of their stuff is good while others occasionally is sloppy in places. Overall journalism has become worse. Getting a story out is the most important part for the media now but checking the facts and making the news article worthy is lost.

 

I voted Labour last election in the UK (previously Lib Dem voter) and signed the 38 degrees e-petition a few month ago to keep Corbyn as it's leader but now the left can go and leave me alone for a few years. Their hatred for the Tories is well known but their hatred for themselves and to those who disagree with them is also there which is not positive. The act of debating and dialogue has been lost. They talk to people instead of talking with them.

 

In the past this used to be true-

I believe in freedom of speech but even if I don't agree with you I will respect your right to say it.

 

But now-

I believe in the freedom of speech but if I don't agree with you OR you don't agree with me then you are a fascist, racist...

Edited November 17, 2016 by sumo73

[Nicktendo]

This is a pretty good economic analysis of why Brexit happened, why Trump was elected (even before he was) and what the future may hold for Europe. Find an hour and a half and give it a watch.

 

[Rummy]

The nightmare may be taking a turn for the worse?

 

Trump last night authorised the firing of almost 60 cruise missiles on an air base in Syria believed to be where the Sarin attack was originating from from what I understand. I also understand that No.10 have released a statement 'fully supporting' Trump within the last half hour.

 

Now ofc I understand the fact that a Sarin attack is hideous and there's a reason certain 'weapons' of 'war' are banned(how ludicrous that seems in itself lol) so I agree something had to be done globally to say that Sarin and other nerve agents are NOT cool - but with Russia being an ally to the Syrian regime I'm wondering quite just how or why this has to be done so quickly, and I wonder almost with worry how Russia might next respond.

 

I've joked about war since Trump came in, but with Michael Howard talking of going to war with Spain, with Trump's recent activities and Brexit; I feel the political climate is getting riper and riper for said war and it's actually scary to think it's not just one big joke. I don't think anything will happen anytime too soon mind - but I do feel this has been a bit silly/rushed. Curious for Russia's response - but I actually expect we might not hear from them straight away; probably keep the rest of us stewing after the US's action as the ball is effectively in their court now.

 

EDIT: seems that Putin's administration have commented in last half hour and Putin is possibly considering it as an act of aggression against international law.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Rummy

[dwarf]

Western foreign policy in the middle-east is so opaque and confusing. Intervention troubles me, the U.S treating itself like an international police force troubles me, and yet it's hard for me to condemn aggressive acts of war over there because I have such little understanding of the geopolitical situation.

 

To what extent does bombing ISIS targets reduce their influence and territory? What makes a successful bombing raid different to an unsuccessful bombing raid (aside from obvious considerations like civilian casualties)? Is the bombing negated by the radicalisation/recruitment that results from it? I can't remember reading any illuminating journalism about this, so either I've not been looking properly (likely) or it's nearly impossible to make sense of (also likely).

 

I see the odd thing like this Twitter thread, which takes an anti-war slant, and I'm happy to read anti-war analyses, but it might as well be conspiratorial and way off the mark for all I know:

[Jonnas]

Western foreign policy in the middle-east is so opaque and confusing. Intervention troubles me, the U.S treating itself like an international police force troubles me, and yet it's hard for me to condemn aggressive acts of war over there because I have such little understanding of the geopolitical situation.

 

To what extent does bombing ISIS targets reduce their influence and territory? What makes a successful bombing raid different to an unsuccessful bombing raid (aside from obvious considerations like civilian casualties)? Is the bombing negated by the radicalisation/recruitment that results from it? I can't remember reading any illuminating journalism about this, so either I've not been looking properly (likely) or it's nearly impossible to make sense of (also likely).

 

I see the odd thing like this Twitter thread, which takes an anti-war slant, and I'm happy to read anti-war analyses, but it might as well be conspiratorial and way off the mark for all I know:

 

Well, for what it's worth, here's a few points on Syria, and the latest attack:

 

1. Bombing ISIS targets does work. It destroys military equipment and weakens their hold on the territory. Of course, in order to properly take advantage of the bombing (read: seize said territory), you need troops on the ground, and to my knowledge, the only one who has them is Assad;

 

2. The locals hate them (ISIS are pretty much bandits, after all), and even failed bombings do little to deter that hate. Furthermore, past military interventions have shown that bombings are actually good at rallying civilian against the local despot (as counter-intuitive as it sounds). Rather, the bulk of ISIS recruitment efforts is focused on 1st world countries, where they target disenfranchised youth (whether they're Muslim or not is irrelevant).

 

3. Trump did not actually bomb ISIS, he bombed Assad, who was pretty much an unspoken, uneasy ally in this conflict up until this point. Criticism against this move has little to do anti-war sentiment, and everything to do with how bone-headed it was. Trump reversed the US's military policy in Syria on a whim (provoking Russia in the process), seemingly to score political points at home;

 

4. I honestly have no idea if Trump warned Putin of it beforehand in order to mitigate the attack's effect. I wouldn't be surprised if he did, and all it would mean is that this move wasn't boneheaded, just a sham. And with Trump, either is likely.

[Happenstance]

[killthenet]

Trump is way ahead of schedule with this whole apocalypse thing. Everything is going to be gone by 2018.

[gaggle64]

President Trump just fired the director of the FBI.

 

The director of the FBI being James Comey, who may have helped him to the presidency by intervening in the election. The FBI being the police force investigating Trump & co for possible treason.

 

That director of the FBI.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

"i'm so sure i'm not corrupt and non of my Government are corrupt, i'm going to Fire the Attorney General and now The FBI director, they are wasting time investigating! and what about her Emails? that was such a bigly scandal" ~ ComradPresident Trump, 2017