Agent Gibbs Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 (edited) Are you a racist? (No, Yes, No but...) And then perhaps a frank discussion on the topic if it goes that way. I never believe anyone who says there isn't a racist bone in their body, everyone has prejudices ingrained into them from experiences they've had or those that people they know have had, in reality its not a yes an no question its a shades of grey answer, a percentage scale Would you say the vast majority of taxi drivers are bad drivers? would you say that for what ever reason the majority of taxi drivers are no of an ethnic minority? if most taxi drivers are of an ethnic origin and you say taxi drivers are bad drivers, are you effectively saying that those of an ethnic minority are bad drivers? Whilst their might be truth in those statements, apparently such distinctions are considered generalisations and borderline racist regardless of any truth to them. I use the point to highlight the issues surrounding making racism a black and white issue*, as its not, if one culture and ethnic minority gravitate towards a particular thing, be that an area, activity, profession etc and then that activity etc is viewed negatively its instilling a negative connotation with that ethnicity. Then there is the current issues surrounding the expanding of what is considered racism, issues with positive discrimination, problems surrounding the changing definition of racism (apparently Racism is prejudice and power, a way to effectively say only those in a position of power can be considered racist, often used to say those of an ethnicity cannot be racist as they hold no power, which in a way is then racist as it dismisses and automatically states one particular ethnicity's views are invalid) I suppose the point I'm trying to make is you can hold a racist/prejudicial view whilst not being/considering yourself racist. *I realise the irony But on Topic I'm voting IN, whilst I think that the EU is very flawed and bogged down in layers of useless bureaucracy and has issues with unelected officials holding far more power than is required with little to no oversight from elected officials, on the whole it is a good thing and if we want to see change, we can only effect it from within. Its all a balancing act of the reasons to stay and go and for me the out side have not won me over - plus far more intellectual bodies, world leaders and industries have said we are better in, than those who have said we'd be better out. Edited June 20, 2016 by Agent Gibbs
flameboy Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 WOW! I'm surprised by the results if my facebook is anything to go by we are definitely going out.
Mr-Paul Posted June 20, 2016 Author Posted June 20, 2016 I expected more shake it all abouts, to be honest. Totally underrepresented on these forums.
Cube Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 WOW! I'm surprised by the results if my facebook is anything to go by we are definitely going out. My Facebook feed suggests that we're 99% in.
Goafer Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 WOW! I'm surprised by the results if my facebook is anything to go by we are definitely going out. "We"? You lost that privilege when you revealed yourself to be a filthy turncoat and left for Canada.
Eddage Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 I am actually genuinely scared that leave will win. I have never really been political, most of the time I can take it or leave it between who wins the general election (both labour and conservative seem more or less as bad as each other in my eyes), but I seriously think all these people who want to make Britain 'great' again are just gonna be the reason we (if leave wins) end up screwing our nation up.
Serebii Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 I am actually genuinely scared that leave will win. I have never really been political, most of the time I can take it or leave it between who wins the general election (both labour and conservative seem more or less as bad as each other in my eyes), but I seriously think all these people who want to make Britain 'great' again are just gonna be the reason we (if leave wins) end up screwing our nation up. Indeed. The thing that worries me is that the leave campaign hasn't put any solid plans out for what they'd do if we leave, and yet a significant portion of the country is supporting it
Agent Gibbs Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 the thing is a lot of those who seem to really want leave are conservative / right wing leaning, and whilst that is necessarily a bad thing, its rather disingenuous of them to campaign that if we stay in the NHS will suffer, public services will suffer etc as they are predominantly the ones who have in the past (and likely will again) advocate privatization. They campaign on the grounds we can control our boarders, but we already could if we didn't cut budgets on the boarder controls, its likely to be unchanged out of the EU - further more half our yearly immigration is from outside the EU the area we already CAN stop people coming from IF the current government really were determined to. Its scary to think they keep saying we could stay in the EEC, but the likes of Norway who did, had to accept migration and many 'benefits' of the EU only with no control over policies of the EU that come with being a member state There is just so much disinformation thats being spread around and i too have seen a lot of people on my Facebook feed who have been utterly suckered in by such claims of the leave campaign, i'm genuinely thinking we are too close to call.
flameboy Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 My Facebook feed suggests that we're 99% in. Perhaps the people I know...there is a mix I'm perhaps overstating it and the OUT's are all from Harrogate where I used to live which can be quite insular for sure.... "We"? You lost that privilege when you revealed yourself to be a filthy turncoat and left for Canada. Errr.....I still get to vote...
Agent Gibbs Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 Perhaps the people I know...there is a mix I'm perhaps overstating it and the OUT's are all from Harrogate where I used to live which can be quite insular for sure.... Errr.....I still get to vote... The Harrogate area (and north Leeds) are generally quite conservative leaning, with farming being the historic industry and land owners/farmers seems to generally be against the EU or quotas etc of it Am i right in thinking that? not often i go to Harrogate, despite my relative proximity to it
Eddage Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 The Harrogate area (and north Leeds) are generally quite conservative leaning, with farming being the historic industry and land owners/farmers seems to generally be against the EU or quotas etc of itAm i right in thinking that? not often i go to Harrogate, despite my relative proximity to it I thought the EU was good for farmers? Haven't they brought in safe guards, etc for the prices they get for selling produce and I think they get subsidies from the EU as well, which wouldn't be guaranteed if we left?
somme Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 My FB feed is about 95% remain. Hopefully a lot of the more idiotic "leave" voters will forget to vote, or not realise they actually have to go out and vote - not just post it on Facebook.
Ashley Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 My FB feed is about 95% remain. Hopefully a lot of the more idiotic "leave" voters will forget to vote, or not realise they actually have to go out and vote - not just post it on Facebook. Oh man I want you to post a poll on Thursday on Facebook with something along the lines of "first time voters may not be aware but to vote all you need to do is vote here".
Nicktendo Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 The Harrogate area (and north Leeds) are generally quite conservative leaning, with farming being the historic industry and land owners/farmers seems to generally be against the EU or quotas etc of it Am i right in thinking that? not often i go to Harrogate, despite my relative proximity to it You are right, sir. Historically outer York (where I'm from), Harrogate and North Leeds have been conservative. Where as central York, most of Leeds and places such as Selby, Wakefield and the former mining communities of Castleford / Pontefract have been Labour heartlands. My Facebook feeds suggests we'll definitely be leaving but I'm still holding on to the idea I once heard that those who have the least to say, usually shout the loudest. I.e the least informed are likely to ones to be screaming for leave and sharing links like clockwork from the daily express / Britain first.
Ashley Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 I did actually get embroiled with some pro-Farage people on Twitter over the weekend. Apparently him never being elected (seven times) is because "the establishment" is scared of him and fixed the elections. Also some were complaining about how the (far) right were being criticised for Thomas Mair when they're not all that bad. I made a sarcastic response (something like "yeah wouldn't it be terrible if a group was criticised and harassed for the actions of a minority" and from what I can decipher from profiles about half got I was being sarcastic and half thought I was being genuine. I wasn't trying to antagonise them, just curious where they're coming from and it ended up with accusations that they've thrown "the establishment kitchen sink" at Nigel Farage, without any explanation what that means.
somme Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 I wish they'd throw a couple of actual kitchen sinks at him.
Agent Gibbs Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 You are right, sir. Historically outer York (where I'm from), Harrogate and North Leeds have been conservative. Where as central York, most of Leeds and places such as Selby, Wakefield and the former mining communities of Castleford / Pontefract have been Labour heartlands. My Facebook feeds suggests we'll definitely be leaving but I'm still holding on to the idea I once heard that those who have the least to say, usually shout the loudest. I.e the least informed are likely to ones to be screaming for leave and sharing links like clockwork from the daily express / Britain first. I thought as much , i've always lived in the east of Leeds (Garforth/Ledston area, then Templenewsam then Roundhay) and its always been Labour with hints of Liberal, you'd positively think the Conservatives were satanic nazi terrorists who spat on peoples mothers in some areas I thought the EU was good for farmers? Haven't they brought in safe guards, etc for the prices they get for selling produce and I think they get subsidies from the EU as well, which wouldn't be guaranteed if we left? Well thats what i thought, but i've seen and heard a few Bexiters saying that farmers are against it, so are fishermen, all the while ignoring how subsidies help them...... If i had to guess i'd say its a suckered in job that they'd be better out?
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 You already did that. Based on this thread. But I think it would be good to have an updated thread. I don't think I was ever racist, but I did grow up in a 99+% white, working class community, so was ignorant of certain racial issues. Since that thread I've gone to uni, met many people of different races/nationalities/cultures, even met some middle class people (but I still don't like them), so I've definitely become more enlightened. Yeah, I think its a very relevant thing to re-discuss in the current climate of rising xenophobia across Europe... Good on you for gaining some newfound wisdom. I won't mind starting the poll/thread, if someone can please give me a refresher on how you go about making a poll... Please.
Blade Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) I'm voting IN, whilst I think that the EU is very flawed and bogged down in layers of useless bureaucracy and has issues with unelected officials holding far more power than is required with little to no oversight from elected officials, on the whole it is a good thing and if we want to see change, we can only effect it from within. Its all a balancing act of the reasons to stay and go and for me the out side have not won me over - plus far more intellectual bodies, world leaders and industries have said we are better in, than those who have said we'd be better out. No, the only way to obtain change is to vote out. We won't have to then worry about the EU's lack of democracy and accountability. I'm tired of the Remain side attacking the Leave side as "racists and bigots". Its boring and an unfair accusation to make generally. I firmly believe that in the end the UK can economically flourish outside the EU. I would like to see this country not being subject to laws passed by a parliament that doesn't have the UK's interest at heart. Not to be subject to laws that are decided and enforced by a non-British Commission and interpreted by a non-British Court. These institutions care for the EU as a whole, not the UK. I don't want to see such bodies having so much power over member states. I'd be more than happy to accept freedom of movement for the internal market. Inmigration is not the problem its made out to be in this country. Its this wretched Tory government destroying it that is. I don't want the UK to be part of the EU with its ultimate aims of total integration. Power should be devolved as much as possible. The EU is the opposite to this. Centralist and full of power hungry politicians from the rich mans club. Lets create a truly federal UK and also while we are at it reform the House of Lords to make it an elected and therefore accountable body. Edited June 21, 2016 by Blade
Ashley Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 No, the only way to obtain change is to vote out. We won't have to then worry about the EU's lack of democracy and accountability. We've already got an agreement there will be changes (although maybe not enough, I'll grant you) if we remain. So saying it's the "only way" to obtain change is open to question. I'm tired of the Remain side attacking the Leave side as "racists and bigots". Its boring and an unfair accusation to make generally. I think the problem is aspects of the leave campaign has brought out the worst in some people (which is obviously the result over time, with media reporting incorrect facts, racially biased reporting and David Cameron's stupid fucking tweet when Jeremy Corbyn was elected). I believe it is not the intent of most of the leave party to incite hatred, but unfortunately as a sum it has bought out some ugliness. The tone overall does need to shift from nationality, race and ethnicity to what is actually best for the country though. I firmly believe that in the end the UK can economically flourish outside the EU. I would like to see this country not being subject to laws passed by a parliament that doesn't have the UK's interest at heart. Not to be subject to laws that are decided and enforced by a non-British Commission and interpreted by a non-British Court. These institutions care for the EU as a whole, not the UK. I don't want to see such bodies having so much power over member states. We are genuinely on the 'winning' side in the EU (i.e. we agree with an EU decision far more than we disagree) and I personally question how much our government has our best interests at heart, but obviously that's a very personal stance. At least it'll soon be over!
Serebii Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 No, the only way to obtain change is to vote out. We won't have to then worry about the EU's lack of democracy and accountability. I disagree. Look at fishing regulations. A while back, EU fishing regulations required a lot of fish returned to the sea causing a lot of wasted fish deaths. The UK Fisherman groups banded together against this and it got changed. Things in the EU can be changed. It's defeatist to say otherwise
Cube Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 Not to be subject to laws that are decided and enforced by a non-British Commission and interpreted by a non-British Court. Out of interest, what laws that the EU have placed do you disagree with?
Agent Gibbs Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 I'm tired of the Remain side attacking the Leave side as "racists and bigots". Its boring and an unfair accusation to make generally. I'm sure thats a general complaint about the political remain campaign and not me specifically as i certainly didn't insinuate that. But i'd counter both sides have issues with generalisation, the leave side are constantly people painting the picture that leave voters are scared champaign socialists who bury their heads in the sand over the real issues. Likewise as you say the remain side are as you say suggesting that the majority of the leave side are bigots and racists. The problem is, they are both right! a lot of champaign socialists want to remain and are denying problems exist, likewise there are racists who want to leave. Examples being my Cousin is a leave (and labour) voter and has been campaigning on their behalf locally, he frequently makes social media posts about immigrants clogging up the NHS and destroying public services, blaming all issues on them with at times borderline racist posts! he isn't the only one i've seen, quite a few others saying the country has been taken over, its not the same place as 20 years ago etc on the flip side, a friend is so far up Russell Brand's arse he's almost wearing his skin, he would practically marry Jeremy Corbyn and frequently paints the media as making up migrant issues and blames all the problems on the conservative and its no the eu who are trying to help us all. I'm sure i'm not the only one who's seen such thing - but the thing is the generalisations made by both sides are true only because the most vocal supporters are the extremes, the ones who shout loudest! unfortunately those of us who are more central on that political spectrum, who are level headed and are weighing up the pros and cons, are the listeners the quiet ones. I literally made a list of pros and cons and a list of which influential people were voted which way and have gone based on that - the probability for me is we are better in as the risk of leaving is for me too great, too uncertain I respect everyone's view on this, this is a vote i feel the entire nation should be forced to vote on, and whatever the result we should all be proud of the fact we as a people voted for it, rather than installing a government who invariably don't follow through to vote on our behalf
Eddage Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 How are the results of this vote being counted? Is it purely the number of people voting leave vs the number of people voting remain, at a country wide level. Or is it this constituency voted remain so 1 point for remain, etc. I'm presuming it's the former but if it's the latter then isn't there a chance that more people vote remain but leave wins or vice versa?
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