Pestneb Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 "Protectionist EU agricultural policies penalise African countries, meaning freer trade with the UK could help them to prosperity through trade." Just a point here... I recall when I was at uni and looking at the chocolate trade in particular. Lots of people here talking about racists supporting leaving the EU, but actually the EU is quite protective of internal trade. Rules and regulations certainly used to prevent an African producer to take cocoa and turn it into chocolate (where most profit is) to sell to the EU. Instead, they had to sell the cocoa direct to Europe so that it could be turned into chocolate within the EU and keep the lions share of profit within the EU. Fairtrade was a joke for this very reason... we put a tiny percentage of "charity" to the cocoa farmers, then continue to pocket the majority of profit to ourselves, while patting ourselves on the back on how generous we are to the poor African farmers. As I see it, the UK government would do best to look out to the rest of the world. India has a bigger population than the EU combined, strike a deal with them. Help them (not with hand outs, charity or by doing it for them, but through co-operation and sharing good practice with our partners) to tackle inequality (although if we still have a tory party maybe not so realistic ) and work hard. EFTA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Korea (south!!)... it's a big world out there. I don't think we should turn our back on the EU entirely, but if they ask us to eat humble pie, while there are attractive offers elsewhere, I say prioritise those who value what the UK has to offer. As for the readiness of the EU to make a deal that won't hurt the UK... selfishness. Germany = 20% UK = 18% France= 15% Obviously this will alter drastically when the UK leaves. Germany = 25% France = 18% Italy = 14% 1. France.. about 25% of their tourism industry relies on UK tourism. that's 2.5% of its GDP. A weak pound against the euro will dent that massively. Visa issues will also likely deter tourism. The UK passport is the strongest in the world in regards to visa free travel... countries outside the EU won't suddenly revoke the visa free status on the strength of the brexit, so if the EU does it will be harming its own tourism industry. 2. Germany The UK is the third biggest export market... Cars anyone? Of course if the government fail to negotiate a good deal then we'll all be driving around in kias.. perhaps that ought to have been in the remain campaigns info! But again, weakening of the pound is not good news for Germany, nor is a bad trade deal for the UK. In seriousness, Korea have expressed an interest in a UK trade deal post brexit.. Hyundai, kia, daewoo and others await.... 3. Italy We only account for 5% of trade with Italy. I don't see any particular reason for Italy to do us any deals in honesty. But France and Germany will hold a lot of sway. If they don't manage to either convince the UK to take a tough deal, or their EU partners to offer a sweeter deal, they are the two economies that would be hit hardest. Obviously it is interesting to the UK to maintain close ties to the EU, but other nations are showing interest in opening trade discussions with the UK immediately. That puts the rest of the world at an immediate advantage, and the UK may end up invoking article 50 having much less to lose... if we have smart politicians. I think at the moment the UK should be spending more time exploring possibilities outside of the EU and less time crying about maybe not having the same deals as before with the EU member states (around 5% of the world population) EFTA, Australia, New Zealand, India, Canada, America.... this are big countries. The vote has been cast, our fate in regards to EU membership sealed... we obviously shouldn't shun the EU, but we need to act now. the referendum wasn't a loss, it was a game changer. The game may be tougher, it may be longer, it may be less generous, but it is the game we have to play.
Pestneb Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) Any links? I have read a couple of bits, but don't have a good place to find reliable papers etc. Could you summarise what they said? the 4-8% decline, is that for the countries of europe and/or britain? **Edit** found these... Sir, Brexit would allow the UK to choose its own social and fiscal rules, and to control access to the UK labour market by migrants. As the UK is neither part of Schengen nor the Euro, and is doing better than most of the other countries on the continent, why would leaving the EU suddenly pose a problem? Brexit would be the trigger for a total renegotiation of the EU treaties by all European peoples, and would allow the EU to be transformed into a common market with supple confederal structures which would be more effective, freer and more prosperous. This new Europe would cost much less for the UK, which would save the £7 bn per year net it presently spends on EU membership. The City would preserve its international financial supremacy; there is no reason to have any confidence in declarations about the negative effects of Brexit, which would be good for Britain and good for Europe. Pierre Gérard, former member of the Bank of France Monetary Policy Council Henri Temple, professor emeritus of economic law, University of Montpelier Guy Berger, emeritus professor, L’Écoles des Hautes Études en Sciences Sociales Not sure if they were just anglophobes hoping to get rid of the UK for good though Edited June 29, 2016 by Pestneb
Ashley Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 First some light entertainment: And then for something so sickeningly grotesque: EU nationals in the UK (and UK nationals in the EU) are not pawns in your fucking game you fucking fuck. You stupid fucking useless fucking fuck. Fuck you. (UKIP would you believe?)
pratty Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) Pratty, how can you just say that? I suppose feminists are upset about gamer-gate because they made it an issue? The mess is what it is due to unrealistic views. The problem we have now is that in order to get out of this mess, let us at least be honest about the problems we face. So we can deal with them. The economy, attitude to race and foreigners etc. The way these issues have been handled is poor over the last decades. Surely the common interest should be how to make the country better? Not mess it up. I'm not saying people shouldn't bring racism up, I said maybe the racists think other leave voters are racist too because so many remainers said they were. The vote was about wanting to leave or to stay, it was not a racists vs non-racists vote about whether we should be racist to foreigners or not. The people I heard the most boiling this debate down to whether you were racist/xenophobic or not were people on the stay side generalising remainers as insecure, racist or xenophobic little Englanders that what wanted to keep the foreigners out simply because they were foreign, and it was they that labelled the vote to leave as racist/xenophobic and the vote to stay as tolerant and welcoming, implying there was something dirty and disgraceful about wanting to leave. I'll give you a personal example, here's recent email conversation I had with a friend on the day of the vote: My friend: I swear if I wake up in little fucking england tommorow im gonna drink all day! (im hopeful like with the ukip threat last year…it will be a lot of talk by the working class but they wont bother to vote. (remember when the working class used to vote labour before they were all manipulated with fear) My reply: I voted leave. The likes of BoJo and Farage didn't influence me at all, I've barely listened to the leave campaign. I've been against the EU for years. For me the accusations of fear on both sides is overplayed, any decision anybody makes is made in fear of consequences of the wrong decision. The remainers fear leaving and the leavers fear remaining, so it's a moot point. My argument is what is a nation if it doesn't completely decide things itself? It's effectively an administrative region of the EU. Negotiating special deals and opt outs isn't good enough, because that implies it's conditional and that we need permission. No country should have to seek approval from outside itself to do as it pleases internally. Anything less is a surrender of self determination. Trade deals are one thing, but the EU is far more than that and Europe is too big and diverse of broad one-size-fits-all regulations. His reply: Jesus Mike, your 1 cold hearted rite wing sob. Well you can celebrate with Putin and Farage and the rest of your team today. Independence day (I think you fucked up, in 2 gens you’re the gen that will be blamed for massively fucking up (not the government the PEOPLE)....We will see though.... Who alluded to and brought attitudes to race into the discussion? who was making the broad generalisations about voters? Who was the angry and aggressive one? Apparently I'm a far right scumbag even though my reason didn't even mention immigration. And this is coming from a friend! He's so convinced only a xenophobe or racist, and someone down with Farage and Putin could entertain the idea of wanting to leave the EU. So which of us is summing the debate up as one about racism and xenophobia? This has just been my experience and perspective though, maybe others saw it differently, which is fine. People like Farage obviously put immigration and by extension the perceived detrimental effect of large numbers of foreigners coming into the country at the front of their campaign, but that concern in itself isn't racist in my opinion. It really comes down to what specific people say and their personal motivations as to whether their stance on immigration is racist or not. Edited June 30, 2016 by pratty
Ashley Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) The Tory leadership contest is really turning out to be a Sophie's Choice of awful bastards isn't it? And a lot of them are talking about not having a snap election so there you go. Unelected officials. People like Farage obviously put immigration and by extension the perceived detrimental effect of large numbers of foreigners coming into the country at the front of their campaign, but that concern in itself isn't racist in my opinion. It really comes down to what specific people say and their personal motivations as to whether their stance on immigration is racist or not. I want to pick up on this point a bit. When Farage says hearing foreign voices on a train makes him "uncomfortable" and how he doesn't think it's right for families to not speak English as a primary language in their home and calling parts of Britain "foreign land" he absolutely is feeding into a racist rhetoric that we're seeing unfold now. Edited June 30, 2016 by Ashley
Kav Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) [tweet]748445383014105089[/tweet] Edited June 30, 2016 by Kav
Pestneb Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 The Tory leadership contest is really turning out to be a Sophie's Choice of awful bastards isn't it? And a lot of them are talking about not having a snap election so there you go. Unelected officials. I want to pick up on this point a bit. When Farage says hearing foreign voices on a train makes him "uncomfortable" and how he doesn't think it's right for families to not speak English as a primary language in their home and calling parts of Britain "foreign land" he absolutely is feeding into a racist rhetoric that we're seeing unfold now. In fairness, we don't elect the prime minister, we elect our representative in parliament and the party to which they belong elects one amongst those elected ministers to be the prime minister. Boris J has been elected, just as Cameron was. I agree... in the home people will naturally speak their native tongue. How many languages does Farage speak? only one I should imagine. I can speak in a couple of other languages with my mum, but we both communicate together in English, because our combined fluency is stronger in English than it is in any other language. It's not a political choice or because English is the native language outside. I agree that if you live in a country you should be able to communicate at the very least at a basic level.. but extending that into the home is a bit excessive. I assume he can't speak German (he is/was married to a German right???) And then for something so sickeningly grotesque: EU nationals in the UK (and UK nationals in the EU) are not pawns in your fucking game you fucking fuck. You stupid fucking useless fucking fuck. Fuck you. (UKIP would you believe?) Well I hope he was discussing protecting UK emigrants rights more so than discussing attacking EU immigrants rights... though his language seems to say the opposite. So I just hope he is nowhere near the negotiating table! Also, in raw numbers he may be right, double EU immigrants than UK emigrants... but proportionally would it not be reversed, with 2% of the UK being emigrants vs 1% from the EU in the UK?
Daft Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) So long Boris. You fucked everything and then fucked off. I think that's as close as you'll get to a social-cleansing drive-by. Jesus, it's between the homophobe Crabb, Michael 'Doesn't trust experts' Gove, and Theresa May. Edited June 30, 2016 by Daft
Mr-Paul Posted June 30, 2016 Author Posted June 30, 2016 He's wimped out. It's all been one big game to him, and now the going has got tough, he doesn't want to play any more. What a wonderful pair of people we've got as candidates to be the next Prime Minister. May or Gove. Awful.
Blade Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 Bojo pulls out. I'm not actually surprised. He was never actually a Leaver and he cannot pull the Art 50. He also doesn't want to be tainted with it. Out of all the Tory candidates it has to be Theresa May. I think she is the best out of a terrible bunch. I think she would be a leader and have the clout to at least accomplish something. Meanwhile at the launch of the anti-semite report into the Labour Party Jeremy Corbyn compares Israel to ISIS. Wow!! Just wow!!
Daft Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 Meanwhile at the launch of the anti-semite report into the Labour Party Jeremy Corbyn compares Israel to ISIS. Wow!! Just wow!! That's not really what he said though. He said you can no more blame a Jewish person for the actions of Israel as you can blame a Muslim for the actions of ISIS. Which...is true. And Israel have for too long conflated their efforts to raze Palestine to the ground with anti-semitism. So they have brought that comparison on themselves.
Blade Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 I just found it odd that he would choose the launch of an anti-semite report to make those comments not the actual comments themselves.
Cube Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 So who is left? Gove, who wants to end the NHS, and May, who wants to end privacy? Anyone else?
bob Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 Oh God I want it all to end. Gove cannot be allowed to be Prime Minister.
Ashley Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 In fairness, we don't elect the prime minister, we elect our representative in parliament and the party to which they belong elects one amongst those elected ministers to be the prime minister. Boris J has been elected, just as Cameron was. I agree... in the home people will naturally speak their native tongue. How many languages does Farage speak? only one I should imagine. I can speak in a couple of other languages with my mum, but we both communicate together in English, because our combined fluency is stronger in English than it is in any other language. It's not a political choice or because English is the native language outside. I agree that if you live in a country you should be able to communicate at the very least at a basic level.. but extending that into the home is a bit excessive. I assume he can't speak German (he is/was married to a German right???) Well I hope he was discussing protecting UK emigrants rights more so than discussing attacking EU immigrants rights... though his language seems to say the opposite. So I just hope he is nowhere near the negotiating table! Also, in raw numbers he may be right, double EU immigrants than UK emigrants... but proportionally would it not be reversed, with 2% of the UK being emigrants vs 1% from the EU in the UK? Some people may vote on the basis of the leader, but yeah it will be a small number. My real point was as much as people moaned about the EU have unelected officials, we have it here (House of Lords for example) so while I kind of understand the sentiment I never really got how it was apparently so different. His wife is German and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he didn't let her speak German at home. It has nothing to do with numbers. These are people whose lives are currently uncertain, who are facing abuse (at least people here, not sure how it's playing out across Europe) and they need answers quickly, not to be used in political football. It was a dehumanising statement. Out of all the Tory candidates it has to be Theresa May. I think she is the best out of a terrible bunch. I think she would be a leader and have the clout to at least accomplish something. Ms "Go Home" herself...
Serebii Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 Welp, time to go to the Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all of this to blow over We're fucked
Blade Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 I find it spineless that Bojo engineered the largest constitutional crisis that this country has ever faced since WW2 yet doesn't offer to clean it up. First Cameron fucks off (who initiated it) then Johnson (who finished it off)
Eenuh Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 This entire referendum seems to have simply been set up for politicians' personal power struggles... The Labour party is tearing itself apart while a pre-planned coup is taking place on Corbyn, while the Tories are fighting for the top position and stabbing each other in the back for it. This country needs a big overhaul of the two main parties, they just can't be trusted anymore. If people vote for the Tories again in the next general election after this farce, then they honestly deserve the shitstorm that is coming our way...
Rummy Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) This entire referendum seems to have simply been set up for politicians' personal power struggles... The Labour party is tearing itself apart while a pre-planned coup is taking place on Corbyn, while the Tories are fighting for the top position and stabbing each other in the back for it. This country needs a big overhaul of the two main parties, they just can't be trusted anymore. If people vote for the Tories again in the next general election after this farce, then they honestly deserve the shitstorm that is coming our way... I'm increasingly wondering if the chaos might even be a little bit good - shaking everything up a bit. Corbyn seems to be resolute sticking to his guns and I'm hoping that might somehow work out in his/Labour's favour. I don't tend to have a particular political affiliation but I'd possibly get behind Corbyn and Labour in the current situation(depending on the outcome of this moment of flux). Edited June 30, 2016 by Rummy
Kav Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 Oh God I want it all to end. Gove cannot be allowed to be Prime Minister. Gove knows himself that he'd be a shit PM... [tweet]748480564085268481[/tweet]
Ashley Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 If I had the technical know how (and time) I'd create a reverse meme generator where you can choose a picture of Gove and it will add that quote.
Happenstance Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) [tweet]748477453631426560[/tweet] Ewan McGregor not too impressed with Boris! Edited June 30, 2016 by Ashley Twittered it for you
Daft Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) Farage says can envisage Britain contribution to EU budget post-Brexit You cannot make this up. I just found it odd that he would choose the launch of an anti-semite report to make those comments not the actual comments themselves. Why? It's not an anti-semitic comment. In fact, it's very deliberately worded because Israel plays huge part in the mislabelling of "anti-semitism". This is why Jeremy Corbyn is a leader. Because he's smart and he is deliberate and he knows what he is talking about. Off topic, I don't believe Corbyn isn't a leader. I hear people say he isn't a leader but there is nothing to back this up. He's been leader of Labour for 9 months now, I think. And this is what he's achieved in a party full of people who are fighting against him. He helped force a tax credits U-turn He helped force a police cuts U-turn He helped force a Saudi prisons U-turn There's been a massive boost in party membership Labour defied critics in its first by-election Huge crowds gatecrashed the Tory conference Firefighters have re-affiliated after 11 years There are more public questions at PMQs Nationalising the railways is now official policy There's a female majority in shadow cabinet Do not believe the rhetoric, Corbyn is a leader. A better one than we deserve. The problem with politics – and most people who comment on it – is reactions like, and I'm afraid to say it, yours, "Wow!! Just wow!!"; it's reaction without value, shock without thought. He makes a deliberate comment and instead of taking his point on board (and making a constructive counter point if you find a flaw with it) it is dismissed as outrageous or racist or whatever; instead of the discussion being constructive it becomes destructive. Cameron does this EVERY FUCKING PMQ. Edited June 30, 2016 by Daft Spelling, you grammar Nazi
Kav Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 I can't thank your post enough @Daft! I've joined the Labour Party to fight the corner of Corbyn. I'd have never done so for any other MP, that says it all for me.
Recommended Posts