Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted April 16, 2014 Posted April 16, 2014 Well there are plenty of people that disagree with them and argue with them, so I wouldn't say they are spouting this stuff unchallenged. While that is true, feminism has had the monopoly on gender equality discourse for a long time now. Feminism has long been equated with gender equality, which is inaccurate; feminism is an ideology, and as such it should be open to criticism just like any other ideology, but it has been and still is difficult to aim criticism at feminism without it being labelled "hate speech", which is quite simply a tool for censorship.
Iun Posted April 17, 2014 Posted April 17, 2014 @King_V I agree with you to a certain extent, but the extent itself is difficult to define. And if you think THAT sounded silly: Kwertzwaddle. I love free speech, I love being able to call a spade a spade, or a shovel a shovel, or carrot a kwertzwaddle. However, I do not believe that free speech should be the freedom to threaten or, abuse, harass or offend. Now, this is where things get hazy: how do we define what is offensive? Who should decide what is offensive and cannot be said? *deep breath* Take the word "nigger". It's a hateful word, a wrong word and people using it are just...awful. BUT: there is a section of the black community who have reappropriated the word for themselves and use it in every day speech, particularly in the US. I feel that ANY use of the word by ANY person is wrong. If I say I am offended by it, will people stop using it in any context? Will it be labelled a no-no word? Or am I restricting the freedom of expression of the people who use it? I agree with you that there should be a universal standard, but its practical application is complicated. On another note, the CCP in China is actually attempting to construct "Chinese" as a race. Firstly, they want to label any criticism of a Chinese person as racism so as to have a wild card in all arguments. And secondly, it fits their aims of asian expansionism - they can in the future "do a Russia" and claim any non-Chinese national as thei colllective property (if they speak Chinese) and encroach on sovereign territory belonging to other states. Chinese is a nationality, and within the nationality there are many different ethnic groups, but "Chinese" itself is no more a race than "Canadian" or "French". God, I hate the French... What do you think of this?
Agent Gibbs Posted April 17, 2014 Posted April 17, 2014 While that is true, feminism has had the monopoly on gender equality discourse for a long time now. Feminism has long been equated with gender equality, which is inaccurate; feminism is an ideology, and as such it should be open to criticism just like any other ideology, but it has been and still is difficult to aim criticism at feminism without it being labelled "hate speech", which is quite simply a tool for censorship. Ahh thankyou, perhaps next time i want to post in here i should employ you as a proof reader! thats more aligned with my thoughts on it! you are far better at eloquently collecting your thoughts on here than i am *deep breath* Take the word "nigger". It's a hateful word, a wrong word and people using it are just...awful. BUT: there is a section of the black community who have reappropriated the word for themselves and use it in every day speech, particularly in the US. I feel that ANY use of the word by ANY person is wrong. If I say I am offended by it, will people stop using it in any context? Will it be labelled a no-no word? Or am I restricting the freedom of expression of the people who use it? I agree with you that there should be a universal standard, but its practical application is complicated. On another note, the CCP in China is actually attempting to construct "Chinese" as a race. Firstly, they want to label any criticism of a Chinese person as racism so as to have a wild card in all arguments. And secondly, it fits their aims of asian expansionism - they can in the future "do a Russia" and claim any non-Chinese national as thei colllective property (if they speak Chinese) and encroach on sovereign territory belonging to other states. Chinese is a nationality, and within the nationality there are many different ethnic groups, but "Chinese" itself is no more a race than "Canadian" or "French". God, I hate the French... What do you think of this? I completely agree, any use of the word nigger should be wrong, how can we hope to move past racism if one element of society is openly using a racist word, and the other elements can't use it otherwise its use is then racist/makes them racist! How can we move past and forget racism if there is an ever present reminder! either we can all equally use the word, or we can all equally not use it! On the subject of Chinesse...is Oriental now considered a racist term? i ask because on gaf i noticed a thread some time ago about the game by former LA NOIRE devs "Whore of the Orient" being accused of racism! Shanghai was refereed to as the Whore of the Orient, it was its common nick name, the game is set in this period, but now it seems there is some racist connotations to using the word orient (certainly in Australia where i think the claim came from) In the UK the use of Orient/Oriental has certainly no negative connotations i've ever heard of found the story on eurogamer here Is it considered racist in China? to me the word references the region, and thus an oriental person is someone who's ancestry stems from this region, just the same you'd say someone is african, european, russian, american etc etc
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted April 17, 2014 Posted April 17, 2014 Ahh thankyou, perhaps next time i want to post in here i should employ you as a proof reader! thats more aligned with my thoughts on it! you are far better at eloquently collecting your thoughts on here than i am I completely agree, any use of the word nigger should be wrong, how can we hope to move past racism if one element of society is openly using a racist word, and the other elements can't use it otherwise its use is then racist/makes them racist! How can we move past and forget racism if there is an ever present reminder! either we can all equally use the word, or we can all equally not use it! On the subject of Chinesse...is Oriental now considered a racist term? i ask because on gaf i noticed a thread some time ago about the game by former LA NOIRE devs "Whore of the Orient" being accused of racism! Shanghai was refereed to as the Whore of the Orient, it was its common nick name, the game is set in this period, but now it seems there is some racist connotations to using the word orient (certainly in Australia where i think the claim came from) In the UK the use of Orient/Oriental has certainly no negative connotations i've ever heard of found the story on eurogamer here Is it considered racist in China? to me the word references the region, and thus an oriental person is someone who's ancestry stems from this region, just the same you'd say someone is african, european, russian, american etc etc On the topic of free speech, while of course one should always employ care, I'm uneasy with the concept of considering words themselves offensive; while a word like "nigger" is well-known to be loaded with negative connotations and is thus almost used with the purpose of offending, what about more obscure cases? Take the example you give here: the Orient/Oriental. I, like you, have never been aware of any negative connotations, so were I to use these words, it would be with no ill intention. But if we consider the words themselves offensive, I would still be guilty for using them, if nothing else of ignorance. What is problematic to me is how we focus on the words instead of the intention and how this focus continues to "infect" more and more words. Notice how we've gone through several words that have all started out as the politically correct term, only to later become (often negatively) loaded; it's as if it's the usage itself of these words that's loading them. I propose this is because the obsession with political correctness in speech and action keeps alienating the very groups we're trying to be respectful towards: As long as we keep being afraid of the subject and thus treat it delicately, we're maintaining the divide; we're actually still discriminating, even if we have nothing but the best of intentions. We're hypersensitive to the topic of our differences, and as such we try to avoid confrontation with it at all costs, resulting in almost all words acknowledging these differences eventually becoming loaded. That's why I'm very wary of the concept of political correctness, in speech and elsewhere; because as I see, it is in essence a tool of censorship that hampers open and rational debate and reason.
bob Posted April 17, 2014 Posted April 17, 2014 According to Avenue Q, it is a racist term. That's all I know.
MoogleViper Posted April 17, 2014 Posted April 17, 2014 On the topic of free speech, while of course one should always employ care, I'm uneasy with the concept of considering words themselves offensive; while a word like "nigger" is well-known to be loaded with negative connotations and is thus almost used with the purpose of offending, what about more obscure cases? With nigger, it's more of a case of "why would you ever need to use that word". If you're referring to a black person as a nigger, then that's going to ring alarm bells. If you didn't mean any offence, then why wouldn't you use another term, such as "black person"? It's not that the word itself is offensive, or anyone using it is racist. Clearly that's not the case, otherwise we'd all be racist for discussing the word. But in this instance it's OK, because we have a reason for using the word nigger, i.e. we're discussing it. There's no other way of discussing it. Somewhat related:
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted April 17, 2014 Posted April 17, 2014 Well, "nigger" comes from the Latin "niger", which simply means "black". What you say is partly my point: The words aren't inherently bad - they're just sounds. It's through our use of the words that they gain meaning - and as such we mustn't be afraid of them; we load the words by being hypersensitive about them and the topic itself. Political correctness only serves to make the subject more touchy.
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted April 17, 2014 Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) @King_V I agree with you to a certain extent, but the extent itself is difficult to define. And if you think THAT sounded silly: Kwertzwaddle. I love free speech, I love being able to call a spade a spade, or a shovel a shovel, or carrot a kwertzwaddle. However, I do not believe that free speech should be the freedom to threaten or, abuse, harass or offend. Now, this is where things get hazy: how do we define what is offensive? Who should decide what is offensive and cannot be said? *deep breath* Take the word "nigger". It's a hateful word, a wrong word and people using it are just...awful. BUT: there is a section of the black community who have reappropriated the word for themselves and use it in every day speech, particularly in the US. I feel that ANY use of the word by ANY person is wrong. If I say I am offended by it, will people stop using it in any context? Will it be labelled a no-no word? Or am I restricting the freedom of expression of the people who use it? I agree with you that there should be a universal standard, but its practical application is complicated. On another note, the CCP in China is actually attempting to construct "Chinese" as a race. Firstly, they want to label any criticism of a Chinese person as racism so as to have a wild card in all arguments. And secondly, it fits their aims of asian expansionism - they can in the future "do a Russia" and claim any non-Chinese national as thei colllective property (if they speak Chinese) and encroach on sovereign territory belonging to other states. Chinese is a nationality, and within the nationality there are many different ethnic groups, but "Chinese" itself is no more a race than "Canadian" or "French". God, I hate the French... What do you think of this? Fair point - but to be really fair most of the black people throwing around the word are ignorant and the rest are the hipster followers that just say it for the coolness-value. I understand the usage, and I use it occasionally to mock the people that use it (which confuses things lol). But in any case - I could careless about the word, like, really. Its beyond a simple word its the act. Its easy for impressionable young men in Denmark to say 'yes - freedom of expression', step out of your homogenous haven and see what that just might mean. I'm derailing (but this 'like' system can sometimes seem like a passive-aggressive way of not directly disagreeing with someone ) Close down Storm Front, close down militant black racists, put down the pedestals for radical Muslims etc... Just basically take racism on more aggressively. I don't have specific answers, Iun - sadly. Of course, racism - particularly black racism - is one of those experiences you can't truly understand unless you are apart of that community, reason why it can be a bit provoking when others seem extremely laxed about how to deal with it. [/rant] Well, "nigger" comes from the Latin "niger", which simply means "black". What you say is partly my point: The words aren't inherently bad - they're just sounds. It's through our use of the words that they gain meaning - and as such we mustn't be afraid of them; we load the words by being hypersensitive about them and the topic itself. Political correctness only serves to make the subject more touchy. Well, yeah - sure. But I think you calling people who may be hypersensitive from being called a nigger is incredibly insensitive. Theres a history behind the word, and the history just happens to be related with one of the cruelest acts mankind was ever capable of. History is powerful, and its not even that long ago. In an ideal world for me, all pals should call each other nigger, but I must consider those who are less thick-skinned than me. This isn't like the good old name calling you Scandis have between the three countries. Edited April 17, 2014 by King_V Automerged Doublepost
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted April 17, 2014 Posted April 17, 2014 Well, yeah - sure. But I think you calling people who may be hypersensitive from being called a nigger is incredibly insensitive. Theres a history behind the word, and the history just happens to be related with one of the cruelest acts mankind was ever capable of. History is powerful, and its not even that long ago. In an ideal world for me, all pals should call each other nigger, but I must consider those who are less thick-skinned than me. This isn't like the good old name calling you Scandis have between the three countries. I think you misunderstand me; I'm not calling people hypersensitive for disliking being called nigger - on the contrary, I'm saying we, the "others", have become hypersensitive to the topic; we're so afraid of offending anyone that any word we may choose to identify "them" will soon become loaded by its very virtue of acknowledging our differences.
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted April 17, 2014 Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) I think you misunderstand me; I'm not calling people hypersensitive for disliking being called nigger - on the contrary, I'm saying we, the "others", have become hypersensitive to the topic; we're so afraid of offending anyone that any word we may choose to identify "them" will soon become loaded by its very virtue of acknowledging our differences. Forgive my misunderstanding. (and please forgive anything I said that may have seemed personal, they weren't, sorry) In any case, is that really a bad thing? To be mindful of what you say because it might offend? I dare say we have pretty much come from eras where PC was none existant. There is a reason for people having certain sensitivities - History. Whites were calling Blacks niggers while they were slaving and randomly lynching them, keeping them away from the good parts of their homeland and studying their skulls to deem them sub-human. Japanese were calling Chinese Chinks (err, in Japanese), while they were raping pregnant women and pulling unborn babies with bayonets and piking them on it. And so on. It all wasn't that long ago. Edited April 17, 2014 by King_V
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted April 17, 2014 Posted April 17, 2014 Forgive my misunderstanding. (and please forgive anything I said that may have seemed personal, they weren't, sorry) In any case, is that really a bad thing? To be mindful of what you say because it might offend? I dare say we have pretty much come from eras where PC was none existant. There is a reason for people having certain sensitivities - History. No worries, I realise my ramblings can be somewhat incoherent. No offence taken. In a word: No. There's nothing bad about not wanting to offend, but at the same time we need to consider what we let ourselves be offended by; my favourite quote on the subject is the following: "You have no right not to be offended." Nobody has the right to have their personal feelings protected from free speech since anything is potentially offensive to somebody. As soon as we start outlawing the saying of certain things, we essentially destroy free speech and rational debate. That's why I'm so vehemently against censorship and terms like "hate speech"; no matter how ridiculous or hateful a thing somebody might say, we must not take away their right to say it, but instead challenge it on rational terms and show why it is ridiculous and/or hateful. Whites were calling Blacks niggers while they were slaving and randomly lynching them, keeping them away from the good parts of their homeland and studying their skulls to deem them sub-human. Japanese were calling Chinese Chinks (err, in Japanese), while they were raping pregnant women and pulling unborn babies with bayonets and piking them on it. And so on. It all wasn't that long ago. And such atrocities are exactly the reason why it's so important we combat racism and discrimination through reason. Simply outlawing certain words doesn't further the cause, but removes focus from what's important.
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted April 17, 2014 Posted April 17, 2014 (BTW Im not pro censorship, just stating a reason why I feel its right to feel anxious before saying something which stems from or is in relation to.) People abuse certain liberties though, and the whole call a spade a spade stance/anti-PC is a back road for the abuse of 'freedom of speech'. I CAN call a disabled person handicapped or retarded, but I won't because I actually have a level of empathy for that person. People are emotional beings at the end of the day, and what they or others see as their disability can have feelings attached to it for whatever reason (history, trauma etc)... But anyway, not trying to make this topic about racism.
jayseven Posted April 17, 2014 Posted April 17, 2014 i've skim-read and i'm not replying directly to the nigger or CCP stuff. Politics. I want to make a big argument about the dangers of corruption, the benefit of the free press plus the dangers of the free press... but I can't be bothered. Essentially education is far more important. Rather than electing the smartest, why not raise the average understanding of political matters, so that votes do count? Rather than the media being able to sway the "uneducated" (and uninterested) masses into voting for one-liner policies, why not encourage the idea of greater understanding? Problems are numerous. Some people are just genuinely thick. But there is a real danger in allowing for a patronising uprising of those who believe they know best. Because nobody knows best for all situations. Doing the greatest good for the greatest number of people is a fine idea when there's only one problem, but when every problem every person faces is specific to them and their circumstances, there is no easy answer.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted April 17, 2014 Posted April 17, 2014 I think the topic has been moving around a lot, so no worries! : peace: I never thought you were pro-censorship; my anti-censorship views are simply the logical conclusion to my views and arguments on the topic.
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted April 17, 2014 Posted April 17, 2014 Sorry Evil, never got it... My inferior brain and all, obviously.
Jonnas Posted April 17, 2014 Posted April 17, 2014 But anyway, not trying to make this topic about racism. I figure this is the best topic to talk about racism, though. It does fluctuate a lot. Regarding the "nigger" debate, I always found the aversion for the word to be ridiculous. Of course one should never use it as an insult, but censoring it when discussing its usage, or simply to mention that someone else said it... It's really shying away from why the word is offensive in the first place, it's not a meaningless swear word, it has a lot of meaning, and that's why we shouldn't be afraid to tackle it whenever the time comes. The basic conclusion I've reached with the free speech debate that you proposed is that, if free speech is used in an offensive manner, whoever is being offended should try stand up for themselves, and try to be the bigger man in that confrontation. If they're not allowed to stand up for themselves, then then it is not true freedom of speech.
Iun Posted April 17, 2014 Posted April 17, 2014 On the subject of Chinesse...is Oriental now considered a racist term? i ask because on gaf i noticed a thread some time ago about the game by former LA NOIRE devs "Whore of the Orient" being accused of racism! Shanghai was refereed to as the Whore of the Orient, it was its common nick name, the game is set in this period, but now it seems there is some racist connotations to using the word orient (certainly in Australia where i think the claim came from) In the UK the use of Orient/Oriental has certainly no negative connotations i've ever heard of found the story on eurogamer here Is it considered racist in China? to me the word references the region, and thus an oriental person is someone who's ancestry stems from this region, just the same you'd say someone is african, european, russian, american etc etc I'll admit that I have no idea if "Oriental" is considered a racist term here. What i do know is that Oriental is a word that was used to refer to anyone from the Middle East to Japan. As such a blanket term, it could be considered offensive as it tries to homogenise all these different peoples. But then, that's me looking for reasons that people would be offended. It would be better to hear it from the horse's mouth.
Grazza Posted April 17, 2014 Posted April 17, 2014 Sorry Evil, never got it... My inferior brain and all, obviously. To be fair, he should have used a picture of Emily Ratajkowski. And yes, that is my contribution to this serious topic!
MoogleViper Posted April 18, 2014 Posted April 18, 2014 On the subject of Chinesse...is Oriental now considered a racist term? In the US "oriental" is considered racist as it makes the person sound like an object. Oriental rug, oriental vase etc. Personally I think that's retarded logic. I would also say Chinese rug, Chinese vase etc. In the UK it's not considered pejorative. Although that may change in the future, possibly form US influences.
Iun Posted April 18, 2014 Posted April 18, 2014 In the US "oriental" is considered racist as it makes the person sound like an object. Oriental rug, oriental vase etc. Personally I think that's retarded logic. I would also say Chinese rug, Chinese vase etc. In the UK it's not considered pejorative. Although that may change in the future, possibly form US influences. That reminds me of something Edouard Said wrote in an essay about "Inscrutable Orientals". He believed it was prejudicial to dismiss athe act of a person from this culture as being explicable only to those from the same culture. His point was we needed to understand and investigate rather than objectify. Which is interesting, because every time you get into an argument here, they always play the "You don't understand China! You can only understand China if you are Chinese!" card. No sir, I understand well enough: you're being a dick because you're losing the argument. I had a great one once: We were buying the fixtures and fittings for the house and were having lunch with a friend of Mrs Iun. I said to him I wanted English-style coach lamps for the balcony and the friend said "No, it's impossible, you will never find those here!" I took out the brochure I had picked up from the home deco place and showed him the exact style and told him that it was possible. His reply was "That's not what you meant, what you said and what you showed me are two different things. Obviously you have problems adjusting to Chinese culture." Whut?
Grazza Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 I suppose this follows on from the racism topic, but I saw something on TV tonight that really angered me - BBC3's Free Speech programme. To be fair to the programme, it did allow a controversial topic. It was actually the panellists that annoyed me. One of the later questions (from a viewer) was along the lines of "Should male circumcision be banned like female genital mutilation?" An excellent question, in my opinion. What made me angry was that some of the panellists (and I'm sorry I can't quote them directly) started attacking the question, saying it shouldn't have been worded like that - basically that it was racist/sexist to equate FGM with male circumcision. The presenter said he wouldn't have said it if it was racist as it would have been "hate speech". Now isn't this the problem? You can never be 100% sure whether something is racist or otherwise, so by banning words and "hate speech" you are actually shutting down debate. Anyone in their right mind will probably say "What's the benefit of racism?", to which the answer is, of course "Absolutely none". But there is certainly a benefit in being able to say things that others might denounce as racism. It is crucial we don't ban words or ideas. Most of the panel seemed terrified of offending Jews and Muslims and said banning male circumcision would infringe upon religious freedom. The only half decent one was the prison guard (sorry, I forget her name) who explained she had met people who thought both should be banned (although she stopped short of strongly denouncing it herself). The best person by far was one very articulate man in the audience. It shouldn't matter if we, as a society, offend religious groups. The whole point in having principles is that you decide what is right and apply it regardless. Some may try to shut down the conversation and say it is anti-Semitic, but of course it is not, as it is actually (racially) Jewish children we're trying to protect. If they want it done when they are 18, fine, but I think it is outrageous that we allow adults to remove the foreskin of a child. Being anti-circumcision is not persecuting religions - it is deciding what's right regardless of whether it affects a religion.
Ville Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 And that's what I don't get about the modern times, this ultra-PC "everything's racist everything's sexist cannot criticise this cannot criticise that" bullshit. No, in a free country you should be able to criticise anything if it has dumbass elements in it, that's the whole point of freedom of speech! It's especially laughable if you compare the discussions to the actual problems happening in the some of the developing / otherwise constricted countries. "Omg videogames are so sexist!" vs. 9 million more girls than boys are denied basic education all around the world. "Omg who are we to say what other religions do, not accepting them would be discriminatory!" vs. yeah but at least we don't mutilate our boys and girls or segregate them, plus go to Saudi-Arabia and you'll find that atheism is classed as terrorism there now. So much for that cultural acceptance! People really need to start speaking their minds. Yes, cultural acceptance is good, but it should never be an excuse to turn a blind eye to idiotic practices or opinions. Same with "racism" and "sexism", sure they are things that exist but also labels that are thrown out like confetti these days just to shut down opposing views. People need to stop being so damn scared of offending others...if someone is spewing grade A bullshit, they need to be called out on it. Same with religions, if (and when) they have problems, they need to be addressed, not swept under the carpet!
Sheikah Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 It's especially laughable if you compare the discussions to the actual problems happening in the some of the developing / otherwise constricted countries. "Omg videogames are so sexist!" vs. 9 million more girls than boys are denied basic education all around the world. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but in this part are you saying that complaints can be invalidated or devalued based on someone somewhere else having it worse? Because I can't stand when people do that. We otherwise wouldn't really be able to complain about anything, really. Someone else always has it worse. Apologies if that's not one of the points you were making.
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 I think it is outrageous that we allow adults to remove the foreskin of a child. Being anti-circumcision is not persecuting religions - it is deciding what's right regardless of whether it affects a religion. Yeah, calling a cultural practice (a different ideology) 'outrageous' and basically 'wrong' - is the problem here. You're deeming an act right or wrong simply based on the fact that you don't come from a culture or family that practices the act. Which is biased, and doesn't bring credit to your statement - though of course you are entitled to your opinion. But you feel your opinion must be proclaimed instead of being kept to yourself or within your sphere of influence, family etc. I'm very pro freedom of speech but its the ignorance that can be spewed from this freedom that gets annoying. Everyone has an opinion - But why does everyone seemingly feel the need to yank their views down peoples throats with subjective statements?
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