dazzybee Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 So now I'm a child as well as lacking comprehension? Real smooth. In my opinion this is all decent and relevant discussion on the subject except what you're doing. And you definitely wanted people to stop talking about certain aspects, despite them being relevant: You misquote people and take things out of context to prove points. You think it's relevant, fine, how is nintendo going 3rd party going to save the wii U? But AGAIN you ignore the point of my post, which was why did you say I don't want to discuss the issue when that is EXACTLY what I said I'd be up for?
Rummy Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 I think they'll shift units yeah, Mario Kart and Smah will. X and Bayonetta won't be they're good titles to tempt the wider gaming community and show nintendo aren't just for their franchises. As for we expected mario and pikmin to sell hardware, I certainly never, especially not Pikmin. Mario I'v always said hasn't shifted units since the N64. I always said it was disaster not to have mario kart this christmas. The Wii U clearly is never going to sell decent numbers, I just hope it at least beats the gamecube and nintendo really do learn from it now and into the future. Like I've said a few things, i did an article and doing more for another site - here's the link about Wii Sports Club, but the idea of the series is about the wider problems of rthe Wii U. This was written before the latest "news" and fall out, so quite good timing In the coming weeks I'm doing articles on Mii Verse, the plaza and OS, general online etc etc If people would be interested in reading them! http://nintendoreview.co.uk/2014/01/nintendo-hey-listen-wii-sports-club/ Just read your post @Mokong - I think you'll agree with the article Oops, I missed Bayonetta on that list! I'm not sure how I feel about that atm, personally I might get it just to support it and stuff(pending reception) - played the first on a loan from a friend and enjoyed it a bit but didn't get properly into the depth of it to appreciate it. Courting things like Bayonetta, big focus on their big names - it all feels like a much more Japanese home focus for me. Re:@Mokong's post - I can't help notice it mentions a lot of online and I think that's a very important thing. Nintendo's online focus seems very small; but we're really living in an online world. What are we all doing right now? Sitting on tinternets, interacting with folks and media. The majority of my time at home, I'm on my computer and on the internet - constantly foruming or facebooking. When I play games, it tends to be in company(both video games and tabletop games...though the latters kinda people required). If not I'm playing maybe on Steam on my PC - but I've got my social media/contact(forums, facebook, friends list) all within a click or keyboard shortcut. Out and about, working, not at home? Got my social media/contact in my pocket on my phone. We're in a constantly online world. It isn't just gaming, it's everything, everywhere. When I consider that, I find it quite amazing we've still got consoles like the Wii U sitting in this sub-par online infrastructure. Even what it DOES do isn't particularly fast(one of my gripes with it). None of these make me want to spend time on my Wii U, away from all my social media that everything else is providing me with.
Sheikah Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) You misquote people and take things out of context to prove points. You think it's relevant, fine, how is nintendo going 3rd party going to save the wii U?But AGAIN you ignore the point of my post, which was why did you say I don't want to discuss the issue when that is EXACTLY what I said I'd be up for? Who said anything about saving the Wii U? It's also about saving Nintendo, or at least Nintendo's best options. Like it or not, Nintendo going third party home console is an option and people aren't saying it because they want Nintendo to fail. It's all for positive reasons, and it also relates to the Wii U (as it is a departure from the Wii U), so is relevant and belongs here. Edit: Sorry, I misquote? I don't think so, I took a whole paragraph of what you said. You're really digging this deeper, dazzy. We can clearly see that you were saying people shouldn't be posting about certain things. Despite it being absolutely relevant to the topic title. Edited January 18, 2014 by Sheikah
Andyliini Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 I'm tired of this bullcrap about Nintendo going 3rd-party and doing games for PS4 or even Xbox One. I would be a bad choice, and also a point of no return. Dropping out of home console market completely would be a better idea, while it doesn't please me much more than that. Think about it a while, are there even audience for Nintendo games on those consoles? As much as I have read around then network, every Sony or MS fan calls every single Nintendo game kiddy, and bashes on it even before it has been released. Why would those same people suddenly buy the game, if they hate them so much right now? We can take Xbox One, would that be a good new home for Nintendo games? We all now what kinds of games sell well on Xbox-crowd: shooters and sports mainly. Nintendo does not make either, so we can quite much forget that crowd. And PS4? It it any better? I'll tell you. Let's take a look at games, and how do they sell. Sony has produced some games during their years on business that could also be Nintendo games, let's take a look how they sold. Numbers are VGChartz numbers, before anyone starts to give me the glare. First, Jak & Daxter -trilogy from PS2. A console that has 150+ million consoles sold to date and a game from Naughty Dog, cited by many to be "the most talented and best game developer ever". Coombined, those three games sold about 8,27 million copies. Puff, outsold by Super Mario Galaxy alone, with over 11 million games sold. Even Super Mario Galaxy 2 "the rehash Galaxy" come close with 7,17 million games sold. Jak 3 couldn't even manage to break 2 million, so no support from platforming. Then, how about kart-racing? Nintendo has always been redundant on huge sales of Mario Kart. Sony tried that one, too with LittleBigPlanet Karting on PS3 and even Crash Team Racing on PS1, when Mario Kart 64 was a huge success. Crash Team Racing reached respectable numbers of 5 millioin, while much recent LBP Karting couldn't reach 1 million. Mario Kart on the other hand has so far reached over 5 millioin with every iteration it had, so coming from that, Sony crowd has moved ahead from that one, too. They care more of realistic racing, though Gran Tourismo 6 is not performing as many believed it would. Let's take one more. Smash Bros. is a huge success of Nintendo's with at least 5 million of each game sold. Sony tried the exact same formula with PlayStation All-Stars: Battle Royale, and that game couldn't even reach 1 million. So, what can I say, when the facts talk for themselves. Xbox-crowd doesn't care of Nintendo, and Sony-crowd probably wouldn't buy the games, but use the fact that Nintendo develops for the to glorify their own console within the console war with "Boxers". What has this to do with Wii U? I say, based on what I just wrote: keep the console, do something drastic with it, cause that's the only thing left to do. Rebrand it, form parterships, listen to those partners and help them. Going 3rd-party would be the beginning of the end, mark my words. And yes, I am serious.
Sheikah Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 What do you mean 'is there an audience for Nintendo on other consoles'? Of course there is; many people with Nintendo home consoles get another console anyway. And the people who normally just buy a Nintendo console for Nintendo games would buy the console that now had Nintendo games on it. It's no different. You act like people who buy PS4s/X1s are another species who couldn't possibly have any interest in Nintendo.
Andyliini Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Did you even read my evidence? Thought you wouldn't. If they are not willing to buy their own exclusives now, why would they buy them when they are done by third-party in the same amounts? Sales would drop for sure, in numbers at least, and that doesn't even carry the price of licensing fees etc. You keep grunting your "3rd-part mantra" every single day, yet don't provide any single piece of evidence to back you view. Should I just take your word for granted, just because you say so? I sure won't. I stand behind my views and provide evidence to back it, fuck me, right?
Goron_3 Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 The only people I've ever met that own a Nintendo console own at least 1 or 2 other systems. .
dazzybee Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Who said anything about saving the Wii U? It's also about saving Nintendo, or at least Nintendo's best options. Like it or not, Nintendo going third party home console is an option and people aren't saying it because they want Nintendo to fail. It's all for positive reasons, and it also relates to the Wii U (as it is a departure from the Wii U), so is relevant and belongs here. Edit: Sorry, I misquote? I don't think so, I took a whole paragraph of what you said. You're really digging this deeper, dazzy. We can clearly see that you were saying people shouldn't be posting about certain things. Despite it being absolutely relevant to the topic title. Sorry, this is the Wii U thread... shame on me for thinking it might be the place to discuss how to save the wii u... And two points 1. I don't think nintendo 3rd party is right for here which is about the wii u, sorry I don't think it is 2. This argument has been brought out many times on these boards. Just feels incredibly dull being brought into a topic I don't feel it deserves. Please set up a thread about it, I'll gladly discuss it. As for quoting. You do, you've still not explained why you said I said I don't want to discuss an issue I explicitly said I DID want to. You selected a specific bit of inormtauion which simply isn't true to prove a point, it's a bollocks tactic to try and demean the poster, by making out they don't want people to have opinions, you do it all the time. Anyway. Done. You want to continue PM me. You want to discuss nintendo going 3rd party set up a thread, get a proper discussion going.
drahkon Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 If they are not willing to buy their own exclusives now, why would they buy them when they are done by third-party in the same amounts? To be fair, the games you mentioned - especially the Sony brawler and LBP Karting are not really good games. Mario Kart and SSB are amazing. I don't think the number of copies sold has anything to do with the gamers' "needs/wants" but rather with the quality of games. The Jak & Dexter series on the other hand consists of great games, but sill they didn't sell much - so yeah, that point is yours :p I don't have any numbers and I don't know any reliable sources, but you seem to do (I'm serious, this is not supposed to be an 'attack'). Would you mind checking the sales for the Crash Bandicoot series on PS1? It's just personal interest. From my own experience and talks with a lot of friends who are passionate gamers, let me tell you this: They desperately want to play the New Mario Kart, Smash Bros, Mario games, but they simply don't want to spend 250€-300€ on a new console just for those games. I know, this doesn't speak for the whole gaming community, but you have to be honest: every Sony or MS fan calls every single Nintendo game kiddy This also doesn't speak for the whole Sony/MS community. I take these people you mentioned as the exception and many of them are plain and simple what one might call 'trolls' and 'fanboys'. Of course, I do not and will never know just how many of them there are, but I assume the majority of Sony and Microsoft fans enjoy gaming as a whole and would love to play Nintendo games - on their console of choice. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that Nintendo going 3rd party would be the 'beginning of the end'. It would definitely be a risky move, possibly even a move that can only result in either a complete win or a complete loss. Since the latter is a possibility, there is no way Nintendo will ever go 3rd party, which is reasonable. But no one should dismiss the potential this course of action has.
Retro_Link Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) Can I just pop in and say to the... 'This is the Wii U thread, I want to discuss *so and so* in here' and not *X Y Z*'... There is a create thread button. If you can see a discussion is cluttering up a thread and would be best placed else where, create a place for it! Even if you don't think it's a topic you yourself are that interested in, but are fed up of seeing it getting in the way of others. It's getting a bit ridiculous, it's as though only Mods are allowed to create threads or something and members wait for it to happen and get angry when it doesn't. It would be best for the forum all round if people just got into the habit of creating new areas for discussion, we have both the Nintendo and General Gaming boards for it. Not only would it encourage discussion, it would free up threads and keep them more focused which is what a number of members seem to want. Go crazy. Worst that happens is it gets merged or closed if deemed unnecessary... best that happens is a much more active, happier environment where you can choose the threads/subjects you're interested in discussing. Edited January 18, 2014 by Retro_Link
dazzybee Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 THANK YOU!!!!! I agree fully. Stuff it I'll do it!
Pestneb Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 many people with Nintendo home consoles get another console anyway. So not an increase, just the same audience, with a cut of profits not going to Nintendo. And the people who normally just buy a Nintendo console for Nintendo games would buy the console that now had Nintendo games on it. It's no different. This is different. Those who own just Nintendo consoles buy primarily Nintendo games because of a lack of diversity on that platform. Its a negative point for the Wii U, but positive from a software standpoint. On Sony/Microsoft consoles Nintendo would have increased competition and I doubt they wouldn't suffer from this. On their own platforms at least they have a consolation prize of hardware loyalties. The point being made is it is quite likely that rather than increasing their audience, they would just be reducing income from said audience. Lets face it, most of their losses incurred on the Wii U are historic now, ditching it won't magic back the money, it will just kill off their home console business. Earlier someone mentioned them having 2 eggs in the basket - how would making that 1 egg somehow make everything better for them as a company? Looking at the GC. Similar arguments came out then. They stuck with the GC, they showed that they would stick with a console, thick and thin. They showed they were reliable, and they supported the console. what did they reap? The Wii. Part of it's success was that Nintendo gamers bought it again, knowing that Nintendo would stick with it. I think a HUGE mistake Nintendo made was to ditch core gamers on the Wii, and ditch the Wii at the end of its life. maybe that has contributed to the Wii U's disappointing performance. Had Nintendo kept releasing engaging games, (both for core and non core gamers) momentum may have followed on into the Wii U. As it is, they showed their customers that after a few years the console would be left to slowly grind to a halt and die an undignified death.
Dcubed Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) Here's an interesting perspective on Nintendo's position amongst investors from David Jaffe (creator of Twisted Metal & God of War) http://nintendoeverything.com/david-jaffe-weighs-in-on-nintendos-latest-financial-news-says-iwata-should-stick-around/#more-147620 Calling for Iwata to step down [misses] sight of what makes Nintendo great. You'd never get the Wii-type successes if you don't allow a guy like Iwata to fail hard as well. ...that failure can be a sign that a person has lost 'it' and needs to go OR a sign that a person is still very much relevant and has tons of great work left in them but is taking the same sorts of chances that — in the past — have lead to great successes but are now — temporarily — leading to some failures. You MUST fail if you want to grow and have new successes. My point is, you WANT a person who fails for these latter reasons and you want to lose one who fails for the initial reasons. I feel Iwata is the [latter] and he's certainly earned the right to fail more than he has to this point. And that's from a gamer AND stockholder perspective. If you [want] make money, back the folks who fail properly. Failure isn't just an option, it's desired if the goal is big success. And investors who don't value failure are idiots. Many thought Wii 1 was a bad move at first as well. Point is, so what it's a bad move? Investors need to be thinking BIG PICTURE and LONG GAME with a company like Nintendo...companies that I admire are the ones that don't only play for the short term win. you can look at the up and down history of the company and see that if you want to invest in a company like Nintendo, those ups and downs are part of what makes them great. Imagine throwing out ALL of that wonderful knowledge and understanding and HARD lessons learned by cleaning house at Sony [because] the PS3 did not perform as well as investors would have liked. Yes, sometimes the [solution] is to clean house, sometimes it's to clean a bit of the house, but damn, I think people are losing sight of the value of failure. He's right really when you think about it. Failure is a powerful teacher and grants a company a powerful knowledge base. Nintendo went through this song and dance before and the result afterwards was the most successful period in their history (Wii & DS); Apple went through the same kind of thing back in the late 90s/early 00s and look where they are now! Jettisoning Iwata and destroying Nintendo's BOD and their company culture would be throwing away everything that they had learned. Perhaps their current struggles will eventually create a stronger Nintendo than ever before! They cannot stay the current course forever, but they also can't afford to abandon their culture and who they are. Whatever changes they make, they need to make them while also holding onto their company's strengths and that won't happen if Iwata leaves. They've done it before and they can do it again. Edited January 18, 2014 by Dcubed
Sheikah Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Did you even read my evidence? Thought you wouldn't. If they are not willing to buy their own exclusives now, why would they buy them when they are done by third-party in the same amounts? Sales would drop for sure, in numbers at least, and that doesn't even carry the price of licensing fees etc. You keep grunting your "3rd-part mantra" every single day, yet don't provide any single piece of evidence to back you view. Should I just take your word for granted, just because you say so? I sure won't. I stand behind my views and provide evidence to back it, fuck me, right? It wasn't evidence, it was a very poor comparison to game franchises that are nowhere near as popular as Nintendo's.
Serebii Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Here's an interesting perspective on Nintendo's position amongst investors from David Jaffe (creator of Twisted Metal & God of War) http://nintendoeverything.com/david-jaffe-weighs-in-on-nintendos-latest-financial-news-says-iwata-should-stick-around/#more-147620 He's right really when you think about it. Failure is a powerful teacher and grants a company a powerful knowledge base. Nintendo went through this song and dance before and the result afterwards was the most successful period in their history (Wii & DS); Apple went through the same kind of thing back in the late 90s/early 00s and look where they are now! Jettisoning Iwata and destroying Nintendo's BOD and their company culture would be throwing away everything that they had learned. Perhaps their current struggles will eventually create a stronger Nintendo than ever before! They cannot stay the current course forever, but they also can't afford to abandon their culture and who they are. Whatever changes they make, they need to make them while also holding onto their company's strengths and that won't happen if Iwata leaves. They've done it before and they can do it again. You can't fly high without falling a couple of times. He is right. In this industry, risks have to be taken. Do they always work? Clearly not, but that doesn't mean they should get rid of the person, just because it failed.
Hero-of-Time Posted January 18, 2014 Author Posted January 18, 2014 Here's an interesting perspective on Nintendo's position amongst investors from David Jaffe (creator of Twisted Metal & God of War) http://nintendoeverything.com/david-jaffe-weighs-in-on-nintendos-latest-financial-news-says-iwata-should-stick-around/#more-147620 He's right really when you think about it. Failure is a powerful teacher and grants a company a powerful knowledge base. Nintendo went through this song and dance before and the result afterwards was the most successful period in their history (Wii & DS); Apple went through the same kind of thing back in the late 90s/early 00s and look where they are now! Jettisoning Iwata and destroying Nintendo's BOD and their company culture would be throwing away everything that they had learned. Perhaps their current struggles will eventually create a stronger Nintendo than ever before! @Happenstance made this point the other week, that he would like Nintendo to fail for this very reason, and poor dude got flamed for it. Yeah, you would hope they would come out of this stronger than before and with a new perspective to things. As @Serebii has pointed out many times though, we won't see the results of any changes till at least the end of next year. It's not like they can flip a switch and a new console will be made, games be ready or online is any better.
Happenstance Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 It's not like they can flip a switch and a new console will be made, games be ready or online is any better. SNES 2 with online. Nintendo saved!
Sheikah Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 So not an increase, just the same audience, with a cut of profits not going to Nintendo. Not at all. A much bigger audience. The Wii U is selling horribly, but that doesn't mean fans of Nintendo have dried up. They just don't want the console.
Pestneb Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Not at all. A much bigger audience. The Wii U is selling horribly, but that doesn't mean fans of Nintendo have dried up. They just don't want the console. That's possible. It's also possible that they have dried up, or more likely it's a middle ground where their interest in Nintendo games is greatly diminished, and with it the likelihood of them purchasing Nintendo games. If you look at generations, we have all seen the dominant player can swing from generation to generation. 8 - ? (PS4 possibly going on current appearances) 7 - Wii? 6 - PS2 5- PS 4 - Snes 3 - Nes Generations 5 and 7 both showed a change of market leadership on the hardware sales front. If Nintendo had gone 3rd party in generation 7 they would be in a less desirable place now, I believe.
Andyliini Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 It wasn't evidence, it was a very poor comparison to game franchises that are nowhere near as popular as Nintendo's. Really, thats all you could belch up? And no matter, it's still better than your "my word is the fact" -thing you seem to have up. If there was market, they would have shown a little more interest in such genres. Going 3rd-party would be suicide, or thats something you would say when I proposed Sony to go 3rd-party on handheld side. Cause Vita is bombing just as hard, if not more than Wii U.
Pestneb Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Happenstance made this point the other week, that he would like Nintendo to fail for this very reason, and poor dude got flamed for it. actually there is a difference. applying these stances to a baby learning to walk. Happenstance: make the baby fall so it learns to walk. This article: make the baby walk, although it may fall. As I read it.
Hero-of-Time Posted January 18, 2014 Author Posted January 18, 2014 actually there is a difference. applying these stances to a baby learning to walk. Happenstance: make the baby fall so it learns to walk. This article: make the baby walk, although it may fall. As I read it. So what you're saying is that Happenstance pushes babies? Gotcha.
Happenstance Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 There are certain babies in this thread I would push, yes :P
Sheikah Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) Really, thats all you could belch up? And no matter, it's still better than your "my word is the fact" -thing you seem to have up. If there was market, they would have shown a little more interest in such genres. Going 3rd-party would be suicide, or thats something you would say when I proposed Sony to go 3rd-party on handheld side. Cause Vita is bombing just as hard, if not more than Wii U. Firstly, that's some attitude. Second, there's really nothing more to say other than what you did was a bad comparison. By your own confession, Nintendo games sell better than the ones on Sony consoles you mentioned. However, what you did then was to assume that those games on Sony consoles sold worse than the Nintendo games because of the console they were on (and that there was no audience). Not only is that a huge oversight, there's simply no evidence to support it. The Nintendo games that sell loads have large existing fanbases and have long histories. And probably, most people would agree that those games are just more fun to play. Put it another way - quite understandably, the Nintendo games sell better and are more popular. Yet, the Wii U is struggling hard. Clearly, it's not an issue with the games, which people have shown time and time again that they like. It's the console - people may love the occasional big hitter Nintendo title, but can't justify a (technically last gen) console purchase based on just those. It's for that reason I think Nintendo would do better to not waste time and resources producing home consoles that don't compete anymore, and release their titles on other formats. Edited January 18, 2014 by Sheikah
Pestneb Posted January 18, 2014 Posted January 18, 2014 Second, there's really nothing more to say other than what you did was a bad comparison. By your own confession, Nintendo games sell better than the ones on Sony consoles you mentioned. However, what you did then was to assume that those games on Sony consoles sold worse than the Nintendo games because of the console they were on (and that there was no audience). A similar attitude is taken on Nintendo platforms, and seems to stand up. It's stated enough that cross platform x won't sell as well on a Nintendo platform, because there is no audience for it. Evidence backs it up. Nintendo platforms have a monopoly on the audience that are interested in it's games. Same as Sony and Microsoft have a hold on the audience interested in fps/realistic racers/sports games. Not only is that a huge oversight, there's simply no evidence to support it. Actually, there is evidence that can be used to imply audiences gravitate to different platforms depending on the type of game they enjoy.... The Nintendo games that sell loads have large existing fanbases and have long histories. And probably, most people would agree that those games are just more fun to play. Put it another way - quite understandably, the Nintendo games sell better and are more popular. Yet, the Wii U is struggling hard. Clearly, it's not an issue with the games, which people have shown time and time again that they like. It's the console - people may love the occasional big hitter Nintendo title, but can't justify a (technically last gen) console purchase based on just those. How is it not clearly the games? Is there any evidence for this? I know anecdotally of someone who is waiting for mk8 to be released.... People have shown they like Nintendo games in the past, but on this board many people suggest "franchise fatigue". finally, technically the Wii U is current gen. The actual computational power of a console does not define the generation to which it belongs. It's for that reason I think Nintendo would do better to not waste time and resources producing home consoles that don't compete anymore, and release their titles on other formats. The Wii U is competing. It isn't conquering, There is a difference :wink: Wii U isn't a waste of time, so long as Nintendo are able to see what was good, what was neutral etc. If they are clever, they may yet pull something out of the bag...
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