The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds

[Ronnie]

One of the best articles I've read on Zelda. Identifies exactly what (I believe) to be the issue with the last decade of Zelda games. I liked this bit especially:

 

In the first 15 years of Zelda gaming, innovation had meant changing from a game seen overheard, to one seen sideways, to one played from behind the character's back in a three-dimensional world. Innovation had meant that one adventure was set in a world that hid a photo-negative version of that world that could also be explored. Another adventure replaced the game's land for water and was drawn like a cartoon. One old Zelda game was portable; and the next two portable Zeldas combined to form a larger hybrid game. (Those two were directed by the guy who directed this new one, by the way.) One console Zelda made some of the series' bad guys into good guys and lasted only 72 minutes, 72 minutes that needed to be re-played differently again and again. Another was not just for four players but was meant to be played on five gaming machines at once.

 

Zelda games, in other words, were routinely, radically different.

 

In the past 10 years, however Zelda innovation has most often meant things like swapping the horse out for the train or, in this case, for a bird. Not that the train Zelda wasn't really good, which is sort of the point... even formulaic Zeldas can be magnificent, as is the case with Skyward Sword. Nintendo and its fans will have to decide whether formula-tweaking rather than re-invention is the better Zelda standard. Great games can emerge from either approach, which is something I happily came to peace with, halfway through this new game.

 

 

http://kotaku.com/the-state-of-zelda-in-2013-finally-escaping-ocarinas-478503977

[Jonnas]

I was going to dismiss that article based on that quote alone ("Spirit Tracks' main difference from OoT is that it swaps Epona for a train?" Seriously?), but the article does actually make a good point, now that I read it.

[Retro_Link]

I don't really see when comparing innovation, they can ignore what Skyward Sword tried to do with Motion Controls... it does more for gaming than a Light/Dark world, or simply being on a portable system for example.

[Ronnie]

I don't put too much emphasis on the motion controls in Skyward Sword, it's just a way of controlling the actual game itself. It may do more for gaming, but in terms of what it does for Zelda, not much. Looking beyond the method of controlling the game, SS played things very safe.

[Retro_Link]

Oh no I agree it played it safe, but that paragraph talks about how the series has innovated with various entries. SS certainly offered a new experience in terms of weapon control... and I'd say that was more of a new experience than some of their other examples.

[EEVILMURRAY]

It's descended from a game that was never in 3D, from one that arguably spawned Ocarina itself.

There's no argument about it. It's practically a carbon copy. Ish.

[Captain Falcon]

Oh no I agree it played it safe, but that paragraph talks about how the series has innovated with various entries. SS certainly offered a new experience in terms of weapon control... and I'd say that was more of a new experience than some of their other examples.

 

But it was using motion control to do the exact same thing as was previously achieved with buttons. Swing the Wii-Remote left/right instead of holding left/right on the stick and pressing B. Controlling the Beatle could have easily been achieved by just using the stick to as joystick for flight as in every flying game to every grace a platform anywhere. It was an alternative way of control but was used to create an experience that was ultimately the exact same as all the ones that came before it. And once the novelty goes away, which it does once you become accustomed to the controls, you're left playing a game that fails to make an significant mark on the series history. And it's not like the controls were even an improvement. They offered a few more options, like diagonals strikes, but not much and the game bled the concept for all it's worth buy making every fight with the enemy a matter of simpling swiping in the direction the opponent wasn't blocking.

 

It holds potential for some great gameplay ideas but SS was content to pass them all by having settled on just one idea alone. The twin world concept of ALTTP however was far more innovative in terms of what it brought to the table. The way it forced you to swap between its sections at certain points made you plan your route through each bit until you had the correct tools to navigate at will and how it offered more puzzling opportunities - like how to get into Swamp Palace and Ice Palace. You could see bits in one world that could only be got to by venturing into the other. As far as a gameplay concept goes, that outstrips shoehorning conventional controls on to motion based ones just for the sake of saying you've done it.

 

And whilst OoT doesn't play with spatial awareness in quite the same way, since you're always forced through the Temple of Time, the symmetry and lack thereof, between the past and future is ultimately very similar in nature.

 

As for LA's claim to fame simply being portable, I think it was more than that. In terms of design, it's island/fantasy nature away from Hyrule freed the designers of being bound to Hylian lore. If something didn't make sense, and LA is all over the place, it didn't matter and actually served to make the game more unique and different - to give it its own identity. And then there is the other view of seeing it as a piece of software. An uncomprising piece of software that delivers almost everything its 16-bit brother had done but with a monochrome screen and a pitiful amount of memory. The machine had shrunk considerably, but the scope had not. You could argue the limitations meant the scope had increased relative to its host hardware. It showed how much of the game was down to clever design that could be adapted to lesser machines. GB games didn't have to be watered down experiences and they didn't have to sacrifice their portablity either - that's LA's real trick.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Captain Falcon

[Grazza]

Personally, I think they are letting the idea of "innovation" constrain them. Up until (and including) Wind Waker, it was all about how the system could improve Zelda in natural ways:

 

SNES - better all round

N64 - 3D

N64 + extra RAM - 3-day cycle and NPC routines

GameCube - bigger overworld

 

But then you look at the DS and Wii, and the games have been totally constructed around that system's "innovation". I'm not saying Phantom Hourglass is a bad game, but without the DS, would anyone have thought "Zelda needs to be totally touch-controlled"? Without the Wii, would anyone have thought "I want to swing the controller"?

 

There has been so much innovation in Zelda, there is no guarantee a fan of one will like the others. Most of them are vastly different:

 

A Link to the Past - tight and full of secrets

Wind Waker - loose and full of secrets

Skyward Sword - Punch-Out with a story!

 

As much as I like A Link to the Past, I'm uneasy about this idea that modern Zelda copies Ocarina of Time too much. The reason they should be basing their games on it (although they actually haven't since Wind Waker) is because Zelda should be 3D (at least on consoles), and OOT is Zelda put into 3D perfectly! The 2D Zeldas were tight, and that's great, but 3D gives you a different perspective - that ability to see into the distance. There is a reason everyone remembers Hyrule Field.

 

So yeah, I'm happy they're still making 2D Zeldas, and I'll agree tutorials have taken over the 3D games, but it in no way invalidates Ocarina of Time. One thing I will say about "A Link to the Past 2", is that I still think turning into a painting is the hardest thing to believe yet. Also, it seems to somewhat lessen the focus of a 2D game. The irony is that, as Link turns 2D, the game turns 3D!

 

Overall, I just hope they keep the innovation sensible, rather than forced. And whether any particular Zelda game is 2D or 3D, they need to go back to the core ideas of exploration, secrets, atmosphere and immersion.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Grazza

[Ronnie]

I think you're placing way too much emphasis on 2D/3D. You could swap every Zelda game's dimensions round, make OOT 2D, maybe Minish Cap 3D and the article would still make complete sense. It's the same with the motion/touch controls point I made earlier, the perspective doesn't matter, we're talking about the games themselves. IMO.

[Grazza]

I think you're placing way too much emphasis on 2D/3D. You could swap every Zelda game's dimensions round, make OOT 2D, maybe Minish Cap 3D and the article would still make complete sense. It's the same with the motion/touch controls point I made earlier, the perspective doesn't matter, we're talking about the games themselves. IMO.

 

It massively affects them though. The 2D games are tight, the 3D games are loose. If you made OOT 2D you'd have loads of squares that were near enough blank. If you made Minish Cap 3D you'd never get a clear view of anywhere.

[Ronnie]

I don't understand what point you're trying to make, and feel as though you've missed the point of the article completely. You're talking about 2D/3D but it's a superfluous detail that affects the gameplay in much the same way as the control scheme, all it's doing is giving you a window on the action. It makes no real difference.

 

My point is the games themselves would be the same whether they were 2D or 3D, the essence, structure and innovation of each instalment would remain. I only said my above post to illustrate that the purpose of the article is to discuss what goes on in the games themselves, beyond things like perspective or control schemes that you're placing (IMO) way too much emphasis on. For instance, I don't really know where to begin with this:

 

I'm uneasy about this idea that modern Zelda copies Ocarina of Time too much. The reason they should be basing their games on it (although they actually haven't since Wind Waker) is because Zelda should be 3D (at least on consoles), and OOT is Zelda put into 3D perfectly!

 

Twilight Princess, Skyward Sword, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks seem to have been cloned from OOT from a gameplay point of view. Particularly the first two. Wind Waker was a breath of fresh air, as was Majora's Mask. Since TP, every game has felt rehashed and samey. And it has nothing to do with perspective. Nintendo have gone into their shells, terrified by the backlash Wind Waker received (at first) and now seem to employ either a safety-first approach with their flagship IPs, or a half-arsed one. Occasionally both.

 

(Captain Falcon is far better at voicing his views than I ever will be)

[Grazza]

I don't understand what point you're trying to make, and feel as though you've missed the point of the article completely. You're talking about 2D/3D but it's a superfluous detail that affects the gameplay in much the same way as the control scheme, all it's doing is giving you a window on the action. It makes no real difference.

 

My point is the games themselves would be the same whether they were 2D or 3D, the essence, structure and innovation of each instalment would remain. I only said my above post to illustrate that the purpose of the article is to discuss what goes on in the games themselves, beyond things like perspective or control schemes that you're placing (IMO) way too much emphasis on.

 

No, I read the article. I really think you're underestimating how much these things affect the game. If Phantom Hourglass had been controlled via the d-pad, for example, the overworld could have been similar to A Link to the Past (or any other 2D Zelda). As it was controlled via the touchscreen, however, overworld navigation became about choosing a destination and letting the game take you to it.

 

Skyward Sword's motion controls meant the game became about sword directions, rather than the distance and timing Zelda combat had always been about previously.

 

Twilight Princess, Skyward Sword, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks seem to have been cloned from OOT from a gameplay point of view. Particularly the first two. Wind Waker was a breath of fresh air, as was Majora's Mask. Since TP, every game has felt rehashed and samey. And it has nothing to do with perspective. Nintendo have gone into their shells, terrified by the backlash Wind Waker received (at first) and now seem to employ either a safety-first approach with their flagship IPs, or a half-arsed one. Occasionally both.

 

That's exactly how Wind Waker was described in the reviews though - Ocarina of Time at sea. A reasonable way of describing a brilliant game.

 

Making a game aesthetically similar to OOT does not mean it's actually like it. Just because Twilight Princess had Epona and Gorons does not mean it actually felt like OOT. TP was really about story sequences linked by gameplay (such as how the wolf sequences are fitted in). OOT and WW have far more in common when it comes to design philosophies.

 

That said, at least TP had some exploration and a good overworld. Skyward Sword is far from a rehash, in my opinion. It has almost nothing in common with older Zeldas, apart from superficial things. It is even more story-led than TP, except with Punch Out-like combat and thin, obstacle course-like paths to follow. No real OOT-style exploration in it at all.

[Retro_Link]

Zelda Link to the Past 2 Will Feature Dark World

 

Eiji Aonuma states that this classic feature from the 1992 original will return.

 

In an interview with Cnet, Zelda series producer Eiji Aonuma has said that like the 1992 original, this year's sequel to The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past will feature a Dark World.

 

In the original LTTP, the Dark World was a twisted version of the Sacred Realm, the plane in which the power of the Triforce had locked Ganondorf away. Portals were hidden here and there in Hyrule, under rocks and in secret places. People take on a physical form that reflects their true selves in the Dark World - unless Link was in possession of Moon Pearl, he memorably transformed into a pink bunny when he entered it.

 

There's a lot more that could be done with the Dark World in a sequel. Another information-nugget from the interview reveals the thinking behind Link's new ability to become a drawing and walk across walls (it was inspired by Ocarina of Time's Forest Temple boss, in which Ganon rode in and out of paintings).

 

Announced a few weeks ago, Link to the Past 2 (whatever it will be called) will be out before the end of the year.

They should have tried and kept this as a surprise.... Damn modern age having to know everything!

 

Seems more like 'drawing Link' would have been inspired by the Wind Waker intro, or that game in general. I don't believe them. :p

[Captain Falcon]

They should have tried and kept this as a surprise.... Damn modern age having to know everything!

 

Seems more like 'drawing Link' would have been inspired by the Wind Waker intro, or that game in general. I don't believe them. :p

 

Whilst true, and if they hadn't have said they could have kept it secret, however, that was the first question that sprung into my head unpon this game's announcement and its appearance even if kept secret until I played it wouldn't have come as a surprise at all. If anything, it not being there would be the bigger surprise... and by surprise, I mean disappointment.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Captain Falcon

[Retro_Link]

OK well then they should have kept the 'Light World' a secret The ole switcharoo :p (not serious)

[Agent Gibbs]

I beg they keep the same theme music, or switch it for Orchestral or even a guitar rif of it (the one from Jimmy Wong in his triforce medley is epic!)

 

suppose this is useless with out vids etc

 

 

if it does work at 1:42 then skip to that, youtube is dodgy at my work today, half loads things

[Ike]

Hm, hope the story is about restoring the Dark World or something if it's going to be returning.

[Captain Falcon]

Hm, hope the story is about restoring the Dark World or something if it's going to be returning.

 

At the end of ALTTP Link wishes for everything to return to how it was all ok and whilst it only showed the changes in the Light World, the Dark World should too have been restored back to the Golden Land/Sacred Realm. But in the games that follow the original, the Triforce now actually rests in Hyrule and not there so maybe it's their removal that causes something to go wrong with the Sacred Realm and eventually it collapses in on itself trying to take the Light world with it and your job is to actually seperate the two worlds.

 

Now they've told us it's going to appear, the smart thing to do would be to not show it at all. They can keep reminding us it's there but only tease it with the prospect of its contents instead of actually showing us it.

 

I want the trailers to end with Link stepping into the warp area and then have them fade out as this

 

	Audio

 

plays. Just don't show us the world - leave us that pleasure until it's in our hands.

[Ronnie]

I have a horrible feeling Nintendo will f-up and keep every other sound effect the same, EXCEPT that one

[Captain Falcon]

I have a horrible feeling Nintendo will f-up and keep every other sound effect the same, EXCEPT that one

 

That noise is ALTTP - there are few games that can be summed up quite so succinctly with a sound clip as that. If they drop that noise then someone needs slapping with a Titan's Mitt at which point the puzzle solved jingle will play.

[-Dem0-]

Eiji Aonuma:

"The game runs at 60FPS, while all the 3D games up till now have run at 30fps. The faster the framerate, the more stable the 3D effect, so 60FPS is a big deal."

 

"Well, there are players who don't like 3D and always keep it switched off," he continued, "so there's nothing in the game that absolutely requires 3D, like puzzles that can't be solved without it."

 

Not all 3D games have been 30 fps. I know MK7 runs at a silky smooth 60.

 

Full article:http://www.videogamer.com/3ds/legend_of_zelda_link_to_the_past_2/news/legend_of_zelda_link_to_the_past_2_runs_at_60fps_in_3d.html

[Dcubed]

Eiji Aonuma:

 

 

Not all 3D games have been 30 fps. I know MK7 runs at a silky smooth 60.

 

Full article:http://www.videogamer.com/3ds/legend_of_zelda_link_to_the_past_2/news/legend_of_zelda_link_to_the_past_2_runs_at_60fps_in_3d.html

 

He's talking about the 3D Zelda games here, not 3DS games in general. This is the first fully 3D pologonal Zelda game to run at 60FPS (well, 120FPS really, what with it rendering 2 seperate 60FPS images simultaneously for S3D), not counting Four Swords Adventures and Tetra's Trackers of course.

 

OoT & MM on N64 were 24FPS (19 FPS for PAL) while TWW, TP, SS, PH and ST all ran at 30FPS (OOT 3D was 30FPS x2 so I guess you should lump it in that category too).

 

This news is actually pretty old BTW. 'Twas reported back in March. Regardless though it's nice to see 60FPS S3D games becoming more common in general It was very rare in the first 1.5 years of the 3DS' life (with the first non-built in titles supporting it being Mario Kart 7 and Pullblox) but is now becoming moderately common.

 

Luigi's Mansion 2 is the biggest showcase of it really. Back when it was first shown off in 2012, it was struggling to even hit 30FPS (spending most of its time in the low 20s/high teens). Fast forward to 2013 and suddenly it's running at 60FPS most of the time (even in S3D!)

Edited June 5, 2013 by Dcubed

[Grazza]

Yeah, I meant to post about Hellfire's hands-on with the game:

http://www.n-europe.com/features/hands-on-with-link-to-the-past-2

 

Two things really interested me:

 

1) It runs at 60fps

2) Movement is via the Circle Pad

 

The last one is something I just wasn't paying attention to/hadn't thought through, but it'll be interesting to see how that works - 2D Zelda taken off its "left, right, up, down" rigidity.

 

The 60fps, though, is very welcome indeed. I remember saying before that I wanted Ocarina of Time 3D to be 60fps. It was pointed out to me, quite fairly, that the game doesn't really need it. However, I still think it is an important step in giving Zelda more immediacy. When you play the Mario games, they just feel good... I'm hoping this will translate to Zelda as well.

 

OoT & MM on N64 were 24FPS (19 FPS for PAL) while TWW, TP, SS, PH and ST all ran at 30FPS (OOT 3D was 30FPS x2 so I guess you should lump it in that category too).

 

Very interesting. You can really feel the benefit as the framerate increased over successive games.

 

Luigi's Mansion 2 is the biggest showcase of it really. Back when it was first shown off in 2012, it was struggling to even hit 30FPS (spending most of its time in the low 20s/high teens). Fast forward to 2013 and suddenly it's running at 60FPS most of the time (even in S3D!)

 

I'm very surprised at that, actually. I had previously assumed all the lighting effects had lowered the framerate. Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D is another one. It's said to be 30fps, but doesn't feel it to me.

[Dcubed]

LM2 is not a solid 60FPS mind you. It swaps between a baseline 30 and 60; it just so happens to hit 60 very often.

 

MH3U 3DS is another one that works similarly, usually hovering between 45-60FPS (with the minimum being a solid 30), even with 3D turned on. That's really impressive, especially when you consider that it features graphical enhancements over the Wii version (particularily with the shadows/self shadowing), renders the scene twice for 3D and still runs better than the Wii version!

 

Not every game really needs 60FPS though, Zelda feels fine in 30FPS for instance (benefitting moreso by the larger scale made by the extra power freed up by dropping the framerate). It's certain genres like platformers (I'm looking at you DKCR 3D!), racers, rhythm games and fighters where you really need that responsiveness and fluidity for the game to feel good.

 

The last one is something I just wasn't paying attention to/hadn't thought through, but it'll be interesting to see how that works - 2D Zelda taken off its "left, right, up, down" rigidity.

 

Oh really!? I was under the impression that it was still 8 way movement. I guess we might be looking at Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks style level design then (at least as far as the flat bits go, the gloves come off for 3D in-out movement though of course! )

Edited June 6, 2013 by Dcubed

[Grazza]

MH3U 3DS is another one that works similarly, usually hovering between 45-60FPS (with the minimum being a solid 30), even with 3D turned on. That's really impressive, especially when you consider that it features graphical enhancements over the Wii version (particularily with the shadows/self shadowing), renders the scene twice for 3D and still runs better than the Wii version!

 

It's interesting that this has become more fashionable than the "3D off = 60fps, 3D on = 30fps" of many early 3DS games like Street Fighter IV, for example.

 

Not every game really needs 60FPS though, Zelda feels fine in 30FPS for instance (benefitting moreso by the larger scale made by the extra power freed up by dropping the framerate). It's certain genres like platformers (I'm looking at you DKCR 3D!), racers, rhythm games and fighters where you really need that responsiveness and fluidity for the game to feel good.

 

Oh, I agree. I would not trade a large scale world for 60fps (although I think 30fps is the bare minimum now), but I would probably trade small graphical details for it.

 

Oh really!? I was under the impression that it was still 8 way movement. I guess we might be looking at Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks style level design then (at least as far as the flat bits go, the gloves come off for 3D in-out movement though of course! )

 

I suppose it might still be 8-way, but with easier diagonals (goes back to watching video).