Nintendo and Microsoft in light of the PS4 reveal (Th'rip)

[Fierce_LiNk]

Flink, I don't think we can be friends.

 

Aw, maaaaaan.

 

I can't help the way I feel. :'(

[Sheikah]

I'm tempted to agree with him. He didn't really say that all of the 360's exclusives were better than the PS3s, but merely that many more people will fork out for the 360 because of Halo and Gears than they would have done for the PS3 and Killzone. Which, given the popularity of Halo and Gears, I would agree with.

 

Well a bad example tailored to make a point is obviously going to be difficult to dispute.

 

He argued that the 360 will sell more consoles based on two franchises relative to just one less popular title on another console.

 

By the same logic, I could comment that the PS4 will sell more consoles because of Uncharted and LittleBigPlanet compared to Fable on the Xbox. It's a bad example.

[Daft]

Hate to break it to everyone but Gears hasn't been that popular for a while now. Ditto with Forza and unsurprisingly Fable.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Well a bad example tailored to make a point is obviously going to be difficult to dispute.

 

He argued that the 360 will sell more consoles based on two franchises relative to just one less popular title on another console.

 

By the same logic, I could comment that the PS4 will sell more consoles because of Uncharted and LittleBigPlanet compared to Fable on the Xbox. It's a bad example.

 

Hmm, there is and there isn't merit to the argument. Like you say, you're comparing two games to one in just one genre. I think the point he was making was that the 360 has a very big market with "shooters". People who will pick up the console to play the likes of Halo, Gears, CoD (and other third party shooters, too).

 

Likewise, you could argue that each console has their own areas that they are strong in. So, whilst 360 owners pick up that console for its shooters, Wii owners might pick it up for platformers and PS3 owners might want its RPG/Adventure games. Every console has its strengths.

 

I do think he has a point, though. There are people who will pick up the next XBOX just to have the ability to play Halo. Possibly for Gears, too. It's an exclusive, so it does have its draw. Like there will be people buying the PS3 for Uncharted and the WiiU for the next Zelda.

[Sheikah]

Well it's fair enough when you put it like that, but his initial comments were clearly suggesting the 360 had exclusives that sold more consoles, which I would disagree with.

 

What exclusives the 360 has left (well, they're on PC too often) aren't as popular as they once were, and the PS3 has sold more units which goes some way to refute this.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Well it's fair enough when you put it like that, but his initial comments were clearly suggesting the 360 had exclusives that sold more consoles, which I would disagree with.

 

What exclusives the 360 has left (well, they're on PC too often) aren't as popular as they once were, and the PS3 has sold more units which goes some way to refute this.

 

Yeah, I'd agree with you on the fact that the PS3 has a stronger exclusive library.

 

I worry for the next Xbox because unless Microsoft/someone starts creating exclusives left, right and centre, it's just going to be a very average system (in terms of games, we're not talking about specs).

 

Nintendo obviously has a big exclusive library and Sony has a growing list of exclusives. These two, to me, are consoles which are aiming to do different things. I believe it'll be possible to enjoy both and have a great time. Unless something spectacular happens, what will be the point in opening the next Xbox AND a PS4? There's just not a great incentive to own both. I didn't even see the point of having a 360 AND a PS3 this gen...

[Retro_Link]

It's Microsoft's attitude to creating exclusive content that needs to change for them to succeed.

 

They abandoned the 360, like Daft said Gears, Forza and Fable have become tired and people tired of them. Halo is franchise that can sell the 720... but if that's the case it might be off to a slow start because there was only a new one in December. They need to launch the console with new IP.

 

Where as with the PS4 people are still excited for the majority of their exclusives, and importantly they don't give people the chance to, as they keep creating new ones...

 

This year alone the PS3 will have had The Last of Us, The Puppeteer, Beyond, Until Dawn... then Knack on PS4, and there's also been Ni No Kuni as a third party exclusive.

 

Also FLink, the 720 can't necessarily guarantee itself the same leading percentage of Call of Duty sales next gen, as the two consoles will be released closer together at a closer price, with Sony most likely not charging for online, and Microsoft likely doing so.

[Fierce_LiNk]

It's Microsoft's attitude to creating exclusive content that needs to change for them to succeed.

 

They abandoned the 360, like Daft said Gears, Forza and Fable have become tired and people tired of them. Halo is franchise that can sell the 720... but if that's the case it might be off to a slow start because there was only a new one in December. They need to launch the console with new IP.

 

Where as with the PS4 people are still excited for the majority of their exclusives, and importantly they don't give people the chance to, as they keep creating new ones...

 

This year alone the PS3 will have had The Last of Us, The Puppeteer, Beyond, Until Dawn... then Knack on PS4, and there's also been Ni No Kuni as a third party exclusive.

 

Also FLink, the 720 can't necessarily guarantee itself the same leading percentage of Call of Duty sales next gen, as the two consoles will be released closer together at a closer price, with Sony most likely not charging for online, and Microsoft likely doing so.

 

I'm not sure if the fact that Microsoft charge for online will really make a huge difference. It's a difference, but I'm not sure whether it's a complete deal breaker. If the games have good online content and the service is worth it, then it's not too terrible. It's the games that will decide where people go. Nobody will buy a console for Call of Duty solely. But, if there's, say, a Forza and a Call of Duty at launch, then that sways people.

 

But yes, I agree that they're no longer guaranteed certain things. Also, all of this talk about the PS4's controller and the WiiU's controller, what controller with MS be using? The same one?

[madeinbeats]

Also, all of this talk about the PS4's controller and the WiiU's controller, what controller with MS be using? The same one?

 

There seems to be a lot of love for the 360 controller minus the d-pad, so I doubt they'd rock that boat. I read (not sure if it's fact or rumour) any new pad will use proprietary wireless signal, so they don't want you to use the 360 controllers it would seem. If the controller was unique to the system, they wouldnt feel the need to change the wireless connection.

[nekunando]

But yes, I agree that they're no longer guaranteed certain things. Also, all of this talk about the PS4's controller and the WiiU's controller, what controller with MS be using? The same one?

 

I think you're forgetting that you are the controller..

[Mr-Paul]

Wild prediction here.

 

The one out of the PS4 and 720 which is cheaper will get off to a better start.

So many people buy those consoles for the multi-plats, the FIFAs, the CODs. If there is very little to distinguish between the two consoles, if one is significantly cheaper, it will sell better.

 

Yes, exclusives do matter. But for the mainstream market, people will buy whichever one is cheaper/whichever their mates have. And if they've been paying for Xbox Live for the last 6/7 years, I can see lots carrying on, especially in the UK and USA.

[Retro_Link]

Although I think you'd always pay more for the PS4 as it's a Blu-Ray player too etc...

 

So depends what features they both offer.

[Mr-Paul]

Wouldn't be surprised if the 720 plays blu-rays too, the 360 played DVDs. And seeing you can get a blu-ray player for not much more than £50, I don't think it's really that big a feature as it was when the PS3 came out.

[Gio001]

I myself have a Wii gathering dust, a ps3 which i use mainly for blurays and ps3 exclusives ie:- Heavy Rain, Uncharted's and i'm looking forward to the last of us. I'm not keen on the Killzones or Infamous. My 360 is the one i use mostly for their exclusives and multi platform games. I also prefer the 360 controller to the ps3's.

 

Next gen i'm afraid that even if only 10% of the rumours are true regarding the nextbox i won't be buying it. Not even at a later date with a price cut. I don't like the idea of always on kinect spying in my home, checking that the person in my home playing a game i bought is actually the person who bought / registered the game. No 2nd hand games or even if you have to buy a pass to play them i'm not interested. ( need more clarification from sony regarding this too ) Xbox live gold. Yes i pay at the moment. Would i jump ship next gen if ps4 is free, damn right i would. WiiU mmm!! wierd, so far it's only ZombiiU which i piqued my interest but that's about it, May pick a WiiU up in a couple of years when it's cheaper and when it's got a better library of games.

 

All in all it's early days yet but the PS4 is defenitely on my radar if the price is right and if they don't go down the same greedy, intruding road as microsoft.

[madeinbeats]

Would any be too bothered if Sony made you pay £10 to enable BRay features (BRay licence)? Could be a way they can make the initial purchase slightly cheaper for those not bothered about it.

[Sheikah]

Although I think you'd always pay more for the PS4 as it's a Blu-Ray player too etc...

 

So depends what features they both offer.

 

It's funny when you think about it, assuming people have paid for Live since getting an Xbox in 2006, the will have paid around £210+ (assuming £30 a year). That's enough to buy the PS3 again at today's cost with change left over.

[Gio001]

Would any be too bothered if Sony made you pay £10 to enable BRay features (BRay licence)? Could be a way they can make the initial purchase slightly cheaper for those not bothered about it.

 

I feel it would complicate things especially for £10 on a £400 console. There will be all kinds of console and game bundles around when it's released anyway where you could save a little if you shop around. I'd rather they leave it as a bluray player without having it as an add on.

[Cube]

On the subject of franchises, I really get the impression that Microsoft are not a pleasant company to work with.

 

Look at the start of the 360: They had Bungie, Bizarre Creations, Rare, Realtime Worlds, Lionhead Studios, Epic Games and Volition working closely with them.

 

Volition moved to multiplatform as soon as the PS3 started selling, Realtime Worlds tried something too ambitious and failed (leaving Ruffian Games to make a rather poor sequel), Rare is now stuck doing Kinect work, Bungie moved away from Microsoft, as did Bizarre (who then were tossed out by Activision), and Lionhead was generally considered to be Molyneux (who has now left Microsoft). With Epic Games giving the latest Gears to another studio suggests they aren't as keen on working with Microsoft. The next Gears (or their next game) will likely be multiplatform.

 

Turn 10 are still around and have likely been working on Forza 5 for the next Xbox since Forza 4 finished (Horizons was handled by someone else). Rare will unlikely make a proper game again despite many amazing franchises, Harmonix do work closely with Microsoft for Dance Central.

 

Sony, like Nintendo, have a lot of development studios under their control. I think Microsoft's focus on the casual market (which is very likely) will make it too risky for these companies making "proper" games to make exclusive games for Microsoft.

[Zechs Merquise]

This is so wrong.

 

Sony going first was completely the right idea. Microsoft can't change their console now; if it is going to be technically less impressive with more focus on the casual market (as rumoured) then no amount of conference preparation is going to help them.

 

The 360 releasing first was a massive boon to Microsoft in attracting and keeping customers on their console (and Live), which they probably won't have this time if they're going second.

 

And this was by no means a lukewarm reception. From my overall perceptions, people seem to have been very impressed. Excluding the Nintendo fanboys that suddenly entered the Other Consoles board for the first time in their life. :p

 

MS had a year headstart on the PS3, which made the error of launched at the same time as the Wii and was destroyed due to price and the marketing buzz surrounding the Wii.

 

Both the 720 and the PS4 will launch in the same time frame, however Sony have shown their hand early. The reception from the press and the wider gaming market was lukewarm, @madeinbeats posted the press summary which was hardly glowing.

 

Just because some people on forums are wetting their pants in excitement doesn't mean everyone else is. If the people who frequent forums decided whether consoles succeeded or failed, the Wii would have gone under in its second year and the Dreamcast would have been one of the best selling consoles of all time. The opposite is true!

 

As the situation stands, when MS do unveil their console they will have learned from what Sony have done and be in a better position to create a larger buzz. If they get it right - and play heavy on Halo and potentially show the next COD on their system that will have far more impact in the 'real world' than anything Sony showed off.

 

Hate to break it to everyone but Gears hasn't been that popular for a while now. Ditto with Forza and unsurprisingly Fable.

 

Gears of War: 5.98 million

Gears of War 2: 6.59 million

Gears of War 3: 5.76 million

 

Whilst the third has sold less than the second, I wouldn't call it a series in decline, it's quite clearly still selling strongly. And if Gears hasn't been that popular then how would you describe Uncharted:

 

Uncharted: 4.54 million

Uncharted 2: 6.10 million

Uncharted 3: 5.67 million

 

Now whilst I'm sure you wouldn't say Uncharted 'hasn't been that popular for a while now', I'd be interested to see how you would describe it bearing in mind it has followed the same sales pattern as Gears yet failed to outsell it?

 

Fable has consistently sold better with each main iteration - excluding The Journey which bombed. But the main series sold like this: 2.66, 4.10, 4.90 (million). So it's hardly a series that's unpopular. What's more, it's sold far more than the Killzone series which is a key focus of the PS4 reveal!

 

The only MS series that has declined dramatically is the Forza series. Forza Hoizon has only sold 1.19 million compared to the following numbers: Forza 2: 3.99, Forza 3: 5.34, Forza 4: 3.87 (millions). Still, I would hardly say Forza is in any toruble, they've just released too many on one system.

 

As for Halo, it continues to sell very well and put most Sony franchises to shame, with the exception of GT.

 

So in summary it is rather factually inaccurate to try and claim MS exclusives are in trouble/don't sell/Sony ones are doing better.

[Sheikah]

MS had a year headstart on the PS3, which made the error of launched at the same time as the Wii and was destroyed due to price and the marketing buzz surrounding the Wii.

 

Both the 720 and the PS4 will launch in the same time frame, however Sony have shown their hand early. The reception from the press and the wider gaming market was lukewarm, @madeinbeats posted the press summary which was hardly glowing.

 

Just because some people on forums are wetting their pants in excitement doesn't mean everyone else is. If the people who frequent forums decided whether consoles succeeded or failed, the Wii would have gone under in its second year and the Dreamcast would have been one of the best selling consoles of all time. The opposite is true!

 

Of course the people on forums matter! They are the ones who will buy the console after all. Besides, critics too have been very excited about the conference on the news sites I've visited. The point of Sony's reveal was that it was a teaser. People are interested and talking about the PS4 without knowing too much about it yet.

 

Honestly, anyone who thinks MS are in the better position right now needs their head examining, IMO.

 

 

As the situation stands, when MS do unveil their console they will have learned from what Sony have done and be in a better position to create a larger buzz. If they get it right - and play heavy on Halo and potentially show the next COD on their system that will have far more impact in the 'real world' than anything Sony showed off.

 

 

 

Gears of War: 5.98 million

Gears of War 2: 6.59 million

Gears of War 3: 5.76 million

 

Whilst the third has sold less than the second, I wouldn't call it a series in decline, it's quite clearly still selling strongly. And if Gears hasn't been that popular then how would you describe Uncharted:

 

Uncharted: 4.54 million

Uncharted 2: 6.10 million

Uncharted 3: 5.67 million

 

Now whilst I'm sure you wouldn't say Uncharted 'hasn't been that popular for a while now', I'd be interested to see how you would describe it bearing in mind it has followed the same sales pattern as Gears yet failed to outsell it?

 

Those figures illustrate the point quite well; can't believe you are trying to spin it as something else. Like others have said, the remaining 360 exclusives aren't the system sellers people believe. Which in some ways is more unusual given that the 360 has less exclusives. You've shown Uncharted to sell pretty much the same number at the present time as Gears.

 

Fable has consistently sold better with each main iteration - excluding The Journey which bombed. But the main series sold like this: 2.66, 4.10, 4.90 (million). So it's hardly a series that's unpopular. What's more, it's sold far more than the Killzone series which is a key focus of the PS4 reveal!

 

The comparison you're making is really weak. Even if it was used to show off the technical capability of the PS4, you're making a big leap in assuming that Killzone is comparable (it's not exactly a system seller). In that case I'll compare Metal Gear Solid 4 sales to Banjo Kazooie Nuts and Bolts. Fair?

 

The only MS series that has declined dramatically is the Forza series. Forza Hoizon has only sold 1.19 million compared to the following numbers: Forza 2: 3.99, Forza 3: 5.34, Forza 4: 3.87 (millions). Still, I would hardly say Forza is in any toruble, they've just released too many on one system.

 

As for Halo, it continues to sell very well and put most Sony franchises to shame, with the exception of GT.

 

So in summary it is rather factually inaccurate to try and claim MS exclusives are in trouble/don't sell/Sony ones are doing better.

 

Actually it's most easy to claim that MS are in trouble with exclusives. For in your post you've demonstrated something rather crucial; Microsoft's main exclusives for the most part, sell no more or even less than some Sony exclusives, but most importantly, Microsoft has far fewer of them.

 

Simple maths dictates that that's not a good thing.

 

Far more accurate at looking at game sales would be to collate sales of all PS3 exclusives relative to the 360. Of course no one would do it, but we know Sony would have more sales.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Sheikah

[Cube]

It's also worth pointing out that Gears of War 5 could easily be on the PS4.

[Zechs Merquise]

Of course the people on forums matter! They are the ones who will buy the console after all. Besides, critics too have been very excited about the conference on the news sites I've visited. The point of Sony's reveal was that it was a teaser. People are interested and talking about the PS4 without knowing too much about it yet.

 

People on forums are a minority. Their opinions often differ completely with what actually happens in the wider market place. As I said before, if people on forums were to be believed the Wii was a giant flop and the Dreamcast was the best thing to ever happen to gaming!

 

Honestly, anyone who thinks MS are in the better position right now needs their head examining, IMO.

 

MS have far more money in the bank and have far more to play with in terms of marketing budget and the potential of selling the system at a loss. The two things that will make the most difference when these consoles launch is advertising and price. If MS uses their financial muscle (Sony are basically financially screwed at the moment) to sell their console at $50 less and advertise it better, then they can easily get a good lead on the PS4 in sales terms.

 

Those figures illustrate the point quite well; can't believe you are trying to spin it as something else. Like others have said, the remaining 360 exclusives aren't the system sellers people believe. Which in some ways is more unusual given that the 360 has less exclusives. You've shown Uncharted to sell pretty much the same number at the present time as Gears.

 

Quite the opposite, people tout the Sony exclusives as big system sellers, I've just shown the figures to prove that Gears, Fable, Forza and Halo have sold sufficient numbers (or greater) to prove they are equally as good at selling systems as the Sony exclusives.

 

The comparison you're making is really weak. Even if it was used to show off the technical capability of the PS4, you're making a big leap in assuming that Killzone is comparable (it's not exactly a system seller). In that case I'll compare Metal Gear Solid 4 sales to Banjo Kazooie Nuts and Bolts. Fair?

 

You're talking nonsense now. The game that has been the greatest focus of the PS4 reveal has been KZ4, which in itself is a much weaker franchise than either COD or Halo. If MS show the next COD and Halo at their event then that will lead to a greater buzz amongst the press and wider market place than KZ4 ever could.

 

Comparing MGS4 and Nuts and Bolts is irrelevent and a silly thing to say Nuts and Bolts 2 isn't going to be the game that MS use to hype the 720!

 

Actually it's most easy to claim that MS are in trouble with exclusives. For in your post you've demonstrated something rather crucial; Microsoft's main exclusives for the most part, sell no more or even less than some Sony exclusives, but most importantly, Microsoft has far fewer of them.

 

Simple maths dictates that that's not a good thing.

 

Far more accurate at looking at game sales would be to collate sales of all PS3 exclusives relative to the 360. Of course no one would do it, but we know Sony would have more sales.

 

My point is, a case could be made that either Sony or MS could be said to be in trouble with their exclusives - in reality neither are as both have very strong selling lines of exclsuive software!

 

If you actually total the sales of games sold by both, Sony has sold 114 million units of their exclusives, MS has sold 140 million. So in reality, you will find that MS has actually sold more exclusives than Sony. A large chunk of which is down to Kinect games (around 30+ million units). But remember, no one buys Kinect games and every gamer hates Kinect, someone on a forum told me!

Edited February 25, 2013 by Zechs Merquise

[Jonnas]

Honestly, anyone who thinks MS are in the better position right now needs their head examining, IMO.

 

There are a ton of reasons as to why Microsoft's next console might do badly and/or be shunned by a lot of people, true.

 

But if you had no knowledge whatsoever of Microsoft's next console (no leaks or rumours, basically), would you still be saying the same? Just curious, seeing as Sony is the company that's in financial trouble.

[Mr-Paul]

What this discussion really shows is how easy it is to twist the same statistics to support two opposing arguments.

 

Everything really is hypothetical right now, as we don't know what Microsoft are doing outside of rumours/leaks.

 

What's to say they don't have lots of mind-blowing exclusives on the way?

[Sheikah]

People on forums are a minority. Their opinions often differ completely with what actually happens in the wider market place. As I said before, if people on forums were to be believed the Wii was a giant flop and the Dreamcast was the best thing to ever happen to gaming!

 

Whereas a few critics actually comprise the combined consciousness of two million people.

 

The number of people on this forum is a decent sample size, plus the critics I have seen have been very favourable about the PS4.

 

 

 

MS have far more money in the bank and have far more to play with in terms of marketing budget and the potential of selling the system at a loss. The two things that will make the most difference when these consoles launch is advertising and price. If MS uses their financial muscle (Sony are basically financially screwed at the moment) to sell their console at $50 less and advertise it better, then they can easily get a good lead on the PS4 in sales terms.

 

Not really, if you still have to stump up £30-40 a year for online. Everyone knows you win in terms of cost with Sony by a long shot. I imagine the Xbox will be cheaper but also lower spec.

 

 

 

Quite the opposite, people tout the Sony exclusives as big system sellers, I've just shown the figures to prove that Gears, Fable, Forza and Halo have sold sufficient numbers (or greater) to prove they are equally as good at selling systems as the Sony exclusives.

 

 

You're not getting it: MS have only a small handful of decently selling exclusives left relative to Sony. For MS to be as secure as Sony in the respect of exclusives their titles should be selling far more to make up for the small number. Like you've shown, they're selling the same number or less than certain Sony exclusives. That's pretty bad.

 

 

 

You're talking nonsense now. The game that has been the greatest focus of the PS4 reveal has been KZ4, which in itself is a much weaker franchise than either COD or Halo. If MS show the next COD and Halo at their event then that will lead to a greater buzz amongst the press and wider market place than KZ4 ever could.

 

Yes - a NEW Killzone game that shows off the system capabilities! Old Killzone games were hardly special and didn't sell much, so why use the sales for these games? You're comparing one game that people like a lot to another that people have lukewarm feelings towards. Why not draw on several PS3 exclusives that people liked a lot and pool the sales of them, and compare those sales to the pooled exclusives on the 360. Sony are less 'all eggs in one basket' so the fact they don't have a 'Halo' doesn't really matter. They get a lot of sales over many exclusives, with Uncharted even matching the 360's second best selling exclusive.

 

Comparing MGS4 and Nuts and Bolts is irrelevent and a silly thing to say Nuts and Bolts 2 isn't going to be the game that MS use to hype the 720!

Exactly, it's ridiculous. That was the effect I was going for to illustrate what you're doing is silly.

 

If you actually total the sales of games sold by both, Sony has sold 114 million units of their exclusives, MS has sold 149 million. So in reality, you will find that MS has actually sold more exclusives than Sony. A large chunk of which is down to Kinect games (around 30 million units). But remember, no one buys Kinect games and every gamer hates Kinect, someone on a forum told me!

 

(Small niggle: always post your sources alongside any stats)

 

So then take Kinect out of the equation as that means little when gauging how the console fares for gamers like you and I. Screw the shareholder Zechs, we don't have a vested interest in these companies. We just want good games.

 

@Jonnas obviously much about the next box is based on rumour, but one thing we can say is that the remaining exclusives are few and aren't enough to carry the console.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Sheikah