Skin Colour, Races and Racism

[Ronnie]

23 minutes ago, will' said:

@Ronnie, do you mean you don't want to have to announce your own preferred pronouns or that you don't want to have to use other people's?

I assume you mean the first and if so I agree with you, but I don't think anyone forces you to do it do they?

I probably shouldn't get too involved in this current chat for fear of offending someone, I did mean the former but I completely mis-read @Mr_Odwin's post, I read it as his work emailed him saying they had to include pronouns in their email sig, rather than could. My mistake!

Edited August 7, 2020 by Ronnie

[Goafer]

I don't see the point in declaring my pronouns, as I'm exactly what you'd expect. Declaring them changes literally nothing in my case.

I get that some would argue that it's normalising it so those who do have to declare theirs feel more "normal", but to me it feels more like "Ooh, ooh me too" and showing off how inclusive I am, rather than actually trying to help.

As with all things though, I ultimately think "you do you". It doesn't really matter, but I won't be declaring mine.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Goafer

[Happenstance]

2 minutes ago, Goafer said:

I don't see the point in declaring my pronouns, as I'm exactly what you'd expect. Declaring them changes literally nothing in my case.

I get that some would argue that it's normalising it so those who do have to declare theirs feel more "normal", but to me it feels more like "Ooh, ooh me too" and showing off how inclusive I am, rather than actually trying to help.

As with all things though, I ultimately think "you do you". It doesn't really matter, but I won't be declaring mine.

Is Hobo a recognised pronoun anyway?

[Cookyman]

Insanity!

Quote

A black man in Louisiana will continue to serve a life sentence in prison for trying to steal hedge clippers after the state supreme court denied a request to review his sentence.

Fair Wayne Bryant was convicted in 1997 of attempted simple burglary.

The five justices who rejected his appeal – all white men – did not explain the reasoning for their decision, which was first reported by the Lens, a non-profit news site in New Orleans.

The supreme court’s lone dissent came from the only black or female member of the court, Chief Justice Bernette Johnson. She wrote the sentencing was a “modern manifestation” of the extreme punishments meted out to newly emancipated black men in the post-civil war era.

“The sentence imposed is excessive and disproportionate to the offense the defendant committed,” Johnson wrote.

Bryant, 62, received the life sentence under Louisiana’s habitual offender law, which allows a person’s sentence to increase based on their criminal history.

Before Bryant’s 1997 arrest, he was convicted for attempted armed robbery in 1979, his only violent conviction. He was sentenced to 10 years hard labor for the crime. His other previous charges were for possession of stolen things in 1987, attempted check forgery in 1989 and simple burglary in 1992.

Last year, Governor John Bel Edwards signed a reform to the habitual law which criminal justice advocates described as an “incremental” step forward.

In Johnson’s dissent, the justice wrote that all of Bryant’s crimes were for stealing something. “It is cruel and unusual to impose a sentence of life in prison at hard labor for the criminal behavior which is most often caused by poverty or addiction,” she wrote.

The 23 years Bryant has served in prison since the 1997 has cost Louisiana taxpayers more than $518,000, Johnson noted. “If he lives another 20 years, Louisiana taxpayers will have paid almost one million dollars to punish Mr Bryant for his failed effort to steal a set of hedge clippers,” she wrote.

Her dissent then explained that after the era of Reconstruction, which followed the civil war, southern states implemented laws which gave newly emancipated African American citizens extreme punishment for petty crimes. In some places, these were known as “pig laws”, and they were “largely designed to re-enslave African Americans”, Johnson wrote.

Her dissent ended: “And this case demonstrates their modern manifestation: harsh habitual offender laws that permit a life sentence for a black man convicted of property crimes.”

 

[Will]

6 hours ago, Ronnie said:

I probably shouldn't get too involved in this current chat for fear of offending someone

I think it’s good to discuss all view points, I certainly have seen the most value in this thread from reading, thinking about, and responding to other people’s thoughts on these issues. 

2 hours ago, Cookyman said:

Insanity!

That is totally nuts. I think America really needs to have a look at it’s constitution and laws and have a long think about ripping them all up and starting again.

Edited August 8, 2020 by will'

[Glen-i]

Absolutely horrible situation above.

But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't wondering why anyone would need hedge clippers that badly.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Glen-i

[Rummy]

On 07/08/2020 at 5:29 PM, Goafer said:

Not aimed at anyone here, but it speaks volumes when people are angered more by riots/"cancel culture"/black lives matter etc than they are by the events that lead to it in the first place.

Look I've already spoken to Ashley about this before but if you don't stop this relentless hounding and abuse of me I'm going to take these matters into my own hands.

---

Anyhow I've been coming across these things coming up more again recently and curiously seeing a couple fb friends posting about deleting fb friend posting all that shit etcetc. The internet is a very different beast now even to what it was in this very forum's own youth. Politics hits the internets and it does so in waves. With US elections up all the various propaganda machines both all domestic AND international foreign states are flowing in to full and frenzied motion at some of the higher capacity levels. The internet and 'the world' as it were and their interactions as we progress are really fascinating and important to very much of all of these issues at a fundamental level imo.

[Rummy]

On 07/08/2020 at 7:44 PM, Ronnie said:

I probably shouldn't get too involved in this current chat for fear of offending someone, I did mean the former but I completely mis-read @Mr_Odwin's post, I read it as his work emailed him saying they had to include pronouns in their email sig, rather than could. My mistake!

No. What you mean is you 'can't express (yourself) in a way that won't be offensive'. Besides which you didnt even READ Modwin's original post nor even follow-up posts in the thread properly before posting like that(otherwise you would not have been mistaken as you were)- you show less respect for the discussion. Coming in here taking pre-emptive offense about something that wasn't even said??

 

This thread has REPEATEDLY been pointed out as positive tolerant open etcetc by pretty much all participants. Will even bumped it because he felt it was so worthy to continue.

I will NOT have you post in here trying to pretend the basic faults in yourself and your inability to discuss and express yourself within this forum without offending others is anything but that. I will not have it be projected onto others of this forum and especially not THIS topic given its achievements and openness so far that they are taking offense where you are not giving it. I will NOT have you come in here and take your inadequcies of reading comprehension nor inadequacies of your expression and let you project a blame for them onto others.

Nobody will take offense if you express yourself non-offensively. Your incapability to that is YOUR problem. Nobody else's and not this community's. I will not even tolerate you putting that idea within this thread.

 

Consider yourself, please. Replies and discussions wanted by anybody in response to this post - please post on my visitor wall. Happy to keep it public but I do not want this thread going haywire.

[Jonnas]

1 hour ago, Rummy said:

Look I've already spoken to Ashley about this before but if you don't stop this relentless hounding and abuse of me I'm going to take these matters into my own hands.

Did you respond to the wrong post? Goafer didn't say anything about you. In fact, I thought he was reiterating a similar point to one you brought up a few pages ago.

[Rummy]

25 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

Did you respond to the wrong post? Goafer didn't say anything about you. In fact, I thought he was reiterating a similar point to one you brought up a few pages ago.

Haha no not at all! It was meant to be an obvious joke. Hence I even center senctioned it off with the --- before I posted seriously.

I pointed it at @Goafer as me and him joke a lot all the time and I knew he wouldn't be bothered(ofc I havent spoken to Ashley and hes knows that lol) it was also meant to be a slight joke about me being brown myself and the irony of his content saying he wasnt aiming it anyone and me taking offense...(because what brown person would?)

 

Also my original edit has JK as the start before I sectioned it off. Please do remember this is the internet much is lost in written communication and do give me some credit. If Goafer needed to have an issue with this he would take it up with me himself.

 

tl;dr: see @Happenstance's hobo joke that flew without exception.

[Goafer]

56 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

Did you respond to the wrong post? Goafer didn't say anything about you. In fact, I thought he was reiterating a similar point to one you brought up a few pages ago.

Nah, Rummy and I know each other away from the forums, so I knew he was just joking.

Plus, you know, he's such a snowflake that I know not to take him seriously.

[Beast]

50 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

I agree but it seems it's sadly not allowed. Enjoy the discussion, I'm out of here 

I think you'd be okay to still stay and discuss. We all have different opinions and I think it's interesting to hear them all, personally. 

For the past few days, at one of my work places, we've had these gang of kids hang outside the shop (which I hate in the first place because have you not got anything better to do). On the first day, three kids were walking past the store and one of the kids who was White (which is important to the story) ran in the shop and shouted "Curry! Got curry? Curry!" at me in an Indian accent. It was at me because I was the only one in the shop. So I said "Wrong race, you thick bastard!". His two mates were like "Ooooo, he owned you! He got you!" and laughed. With that, he said something else which I genuinely can't remember so I basically told him to get out of the shop.

About a day or two later, he came back with, no joke, about 8 other lads (three of which were Black) and I had myself and two Indian customers (a dad and his 14 year old son). They were hanging out the shop and I heard them shout "Oh look, it's the Taliban, blud!" and laughed. I wasn't sure if it was aimed at me again, the two customers or all of the above but I didn't want them to get harassed. I don't think they heard them but I told my manager who was in that day and said they'd probably listen to him over me and I kept the customers busy to ensure they didn't feel bad or get any shit if they left and never told them. My manager got them to leave the front of the shop and basically told them politely to hang around somewhere else. When the customers left, I watched them to make sure they were okay and they left in their car.

After that, me and the manager spoke about it. I kind of had the vibe that he's never really been around racism before or anything so we had a chat about it, which was nice. At first, he was a bit like "Are you sure it was made because of your colour?" (before anyone says anything, he wasn't saying it offensively, which a couple of people said he was being which I find bullshit) and I said "Well, yeah. I mean, do you honestly think they'd say it to you?" and he didn't say anything to that. I assured him that the comments weren't really bad. I mean, their intent probably was but I've been called much worse and have had worse shit attempted at me. We spoke a little about my experiences and stuff and I just said "Honestly, it's the world we live in. I've had it in the past from school throughout my life but they're just stupid twats. The thing is, shit like this happens and sometimes, you'll have to expect it. It's sad to think that but it's true. Sometimes, it'll happen and I have to be careful to either not lose my shit or say the wrong thing or be at the wrong place" and we were having a good talk. He reminded me of the security protocols and told me to phone the police if it got worse. He told me to phone him if I ever needed another person in if I felt unsafe, which was nice. It's good to have that support.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Beast

[Happenstance]

1 hour ago, Beast said:

I think you'd be okay to still stay and discuss. We all have different opinions and I think it's interesting to hear them all, personally. 

For the past few days, at one of my work places, we've had these gang of kids hang outside the shop (which I hate in the first place because have you not got anything better to do). On the first day, three kids were walking past the store and one of the kids who was White (which is important to the story) ran in the shop and shouted "Curry! Got curry? Curry!" at me in an Indian accent. It was at me because I was the only one in the shop. So I said "Wrong race, you thick bastard!". His two mates were like "Ooooo, he owned you! He got you!" and laughed. With that, he said something else which I genuinely can't remember so I basically told him to get out of the shop.

About a day or two later, he came back with, no joke, about 8 other lads (three of which were Black) and I had myself and two Indian customers (a dad and his 14 year old son). They were hanging out the shop and I heard them shout "Oh look, it's the Taliban, blud!" and laughed. I wasn't sure if it was aimed at me again, the two customers or all of the above but I didn't want them to get harassed. I don't think they heard them but I told my manager who was in that day and said they'd probably listen to him over me and I kept the customers busy to ensure they didn't feel bad or get any shit if they left and never told them. My manager got them to leave the front of the shop and basically told them politely to hang around somewhere else. When the customers left, I watched them to make sure they were okay and they left in their car.

After that, me and the manager spoke about it. I kind of had the vibe that he's never really been around racism before or anything so we had a chat about it, which was nice. At first, he was a bit like "Are you sure it was made because of your colour?" (before anyone says anything, he wasn't saying it offensively, which a couple of people said he was being which I find bullshit) and I said "Well, yeah. I mean, do you honestly think they'd say it to you?" and he didn't say anything to that. I assured him that the comments weren't really bad. I mean, their intent probably was but I've been called much worse and have had worse shit attempted at me. We spoke a little about my experiences and stuff and I just said "Honestly, it's the world we live in. I've had it in the past from school throughout my life but they're just stupid twats. The thing is, shit like this happens and sometimes, you'll have to expect it. It's sad to think that but it's true. Sometimes, it'll happen and I have to be careful to either not lose my shit or say the wrong thing or be at the wrong place" and we were having a good talk. He reminded me of the security protocols and told me to phone the police if it got worse. He told me to phone him if I ever needed another person in if I felt unsafe, which was nice. It's good to have that support.

Do you work inside a shopping center? Are there security guards you can just make aware of the situation?

[Rummy]

Previous bits aside I had actually intended to come and post this random sketch Youtube or something fed me the other day;

Now ofc I am posting it for the funnies but one thing I'm a big lover of is comedy especially as a social commentary. With increased issues such as things as white voice actors not playing 'non-white' characters(see Hank Azaria/Apu and a few others having committed to the idea) and also having had Chappelle come out with a special following the George Floyd murder - where if anywhere do people feel comedy intersects with issues and how does it fly when race becomes a hot topic of the moment in society?

[Beast]

On 19/08/2020 at 9:44 AM, Happenstance said:

Do you work inside a shopping center? Are there security guards you can just make aware of the situation?

Nah, I don't anymore. There's nobody. They skulk around but everyone's been telling them to move on away. I was told not to say anything in case but everyone else was telling them. Yesterday, they were there but they never stopped like usual. They walked up and down for half an hour and then went elsewhere. I went on my lunch to find they're hanging outside the chippy now. What is it with kids doing that? Why would you want to hang outside shops? It's well weird!

[Beast]

22 hours ago, Rummy said:

Previous bits aside I had actually intended to come and post this random sketch Youtube or something fed me the other day;

Now ofc I am posting it for the funnies but one thing I'm a big lover of is comedy especially as a social commentary. With increased issues such as things as white voice actors not playing 'non-white' characters(see Hank Azaria/Apu and a few others having committed to the idea) and also having had Chappelle come out with a special following the George Floyd murder - where if anywhere do people feel comedy intersects with issues and how does it fly when race becomes a hot topic of the moment in society?

Oh my God, that video! That was quite clever! 

For me, personally, I didn't necessarily see a problem with Hank Azaria playing Apu nor do I see a problem with Mike Henry being the voice of Cleveland in Family Guy. I never did see the issue. Honestly, I didn't actually know they were White until I looked it up. I think it depends entirely on how it's done. If it's meant as a demeaning portrayal then okay, I see it, but I don't think it did. It's like the White guy on America's Got Talent impersonating Snoop Dogg as a rapper being problematic or something. Maybe I've missed the point completely? I don't know but I think it's fine and I personally am not offended at all. If anything, I think it's a very minor issue compared to other things happening.

As for the question itself, I think anything can be joked about in the right light. Like the video above, for instance.

[Ashley]

4 hours ago, Beast said:

Oh my God, that video! That was quite clever! 

For me, personally, I didn't necessarily see a problem with Hank Azaria playing Apu nor do I see a problem with Mike Henry being the voice of Cleveland in Family Guy. I never did see the issue. Honestly, I didn't actually know they were White until I looked it up. I think it depends entirely on how it's done. If it's meant as a demeaning portrayal then okay, I see it, but I don't think it did. It's like the White guy on America's Got Talent impersonating Snoop Dogg as a rapper being problematic or something. Maybe I've missed the point completely? I don't know but I think it's fine and I personally am not offended at all. If anything, I think it's a very minor issue compared to other things happening.

As for the question itself, I think anything can be joked about in the right light. Like the video above, for instance.

I believe the main point is it is taking away work from BIPOC actors. Obviously this is not usually the fault of the actors (other than perhaps some big name ones that insist on having a particular role, but usually they don't have a say in it) but that is the main crux of it - for every white person playing a BIPOC character there is an actor who could have done it instead and they typically have less roles up for grabs anyway so white actors taking them away makes it even more difficult.

It actually came up again recently with the French Canadian remake of Brooklyn Nine-Nine (no idea why) and both Melissa Fumero and Stephanie Beatriz have spoken about how they are disappointed that their characters have been recast to white actors. They acknowledged that where the show is set (Montreal I believe) has a small Latinx community but it could have been changed to another minority rather than just recast as white. It's that kind of thing basically.

Although a typo in a comments section about the B99 thing made me realise Stephanie Beatriz is a BIPOC playing a bi cop. It amused me.

[Will]

Yeah it’s one of those things that isn’t overtly offensive but an example of the system leaning towards the white male that we need to be careful about. I don’t think there should be any issue/backlash with white actors playing characters like Apu in the past because it just wasn’t a thing anyone thought about. Now it is and we need to move on and improve things.

I also liked the concept of the videos @Rummy posted but didn’t think they were executed all that well. Done with some decent comedians I think they could be hilarious and quite a powerful message.

I still have an issue with talking about this sort of thing outside of this thread because I’m never clear what the correct amount of outrage on which particular thing I should have without getting my head bitten off about everything. I have a lot of friends the west coast of America who will absolutely lay into you if you don’t align with their outrage properly.

[Rummy]

I still got some responses to make to a few of the last few posts in the thread just haven't got round to it yet but I will(about to pop put).

Also whilst I never edited the title I want to post this here because I think its something relevant to consider in ideas of discrimination or othering - but I'm curious to see how people feel about it on the whole if they are happy to offer opinions;

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/08/9987054/new-teacher-challenge

[Will]

1 hour ago, Rummy said:

Also whilst I never edited the title I want to post this here because I think its something relevant to consider in ideas of discrimination or othering - but I'm curious to see how people feel about it on the whole if they are happy to offer opinions;

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/08/9987054/new-teacher-challenge

My. God.

For multiple reasons I just cannot get my head around that. As a kid I think we absolutely did some pretty horrible things in the direction of disabled people, we didn’t know any better but for sure my parents gave me a massive smack if ever they caught wind of it. I just cannot fathom why a parent would 1. Put their kid through something that was going to scare them. 2. Film it and put it online. And 3. Show them that it’s OK to ridicule people like that. It just blows my mind people are like that in this day and age.

I used to follow Lizzie Velasquez (mentioned in the article) on her various social media outlets before I basically stopped using them. Horrible situation she is in but a really inspiring person with such a positive outlook on things - really worth watching some of her stuff if you ever get the chance.

[Rummy]

3 hours ago, will' said:

My. God.

For multiple reasons I just cannot get my head around that. As a kid I think we absolutely did some pretty horrible things in the direction of disabled people, we didn’t know any better but for sure my parents gave me a massive smack if ever they caught wind of it. I just cannot fathom why a parent would 1. Put their kid through something that was going to scare them. 2. Film it and put it online. And 3. Show them that it’s OK to ridicule people like that. It just blows my mind people are like that in this day and age.

I used to follow Lizzie Velasquez (mentioned in the article) on her various social media outlets before I basically stopped using them. Horrible situation she is in but a really inspiring person with such a positive outlook on things - really worth watching some of her stuff if you ever get the chance.

I'm with you on this man. Retards spastics hnnng noises etcetc we all did it and I did too. Hell...I was probably back in the darker less public annals om the internet at soke point poking fun at Lizzie Velasquez and 'no-chin girl' because I was a fucking retarded little shitstain.

Then I grew up. And remembered that the internet does not divorce us from humans nor our humanity. I posted the above because despite being brown and hating racism - there's some about disablism(as it were dont @ me) that fucking infuriates me to no end. It's like picking on a fucking blind kid and I swear to God if I ever see somebody do shit like that I'm full on ready to make them touch ground. I worried I was being algorithmised sensationalisms when I saw it and it wasnt a thing but it seems it is(but small and passing as trends and memes always be) but its got such a dirty sinsiter feeling underneath it I hate it. Then I also realise I was seeing it from a wheelchair cosplayer I randomly follow on FB so I imagine her agenda too is not one for division per se(and indeed you see the message of these people despite all their suffering is one of betterment and unity).

 

And I guess I post it to ask - where IS the difference between racism and that; in essence or crux??

[Rummy]

It's been a while and I still do want to address previous posts but oart of it is an eternal tiredness of fighting and making effort. I just came across this video on Reddit and oh man; it rings such a chord. This is such an invisible thing if you arent visually differentiable - but if you are you'd be amazed how quick or how often idiots and fools decide they have a right to resort to violence against you. I am personally somewhat quite martial in those arts but thankfully I had wise Senseis. I never was a fighter originally as a youth tho - I actually sadly had to learn to become capable just to survive from time to time. It is not something I neccessarily woulf have chosen even though I am glad for it now.

 

This the true Art of War though imo - Capability with Restraint. You'd be amazed how often targets of societal opporession have to do this - in mental and spiritual realms too beyond the physical alone.

 

 

[Will]

I’m sure I’ve seen that before. Even aside from the racism side they’re complete and utter idiots. When the police are bundling you in the back of their van, shouting out “you black bastard” is really not going to do you any favors.

[Rummy]

2 hours ago, Will said:

I’m sure I’ve seen that before. Even aside from the racism side they’re complete and utter idiots. When the police are bundling you in the back of their van, shouting out “you black bastard” is really not going to do you any favors.

Can you imagine how many times people of colour have to deal with tgis shit though? Very often too at young ages/younger than 18 when they're supposedly living their best years and their formative lives? Again for me maybe I walked things a bit different and used it to be more of a Warrior but you can get to bits where you have no choice. It gets even worse if you think about the fact that just being out/about as someone not white with other folks can pose risks to your equally innocent friends too.

The absolute refusual of the men to leave when warned repeatedly is just a typically tired thing about how privilieged idiots can believe themselves to be and can lead to dangerous behaviour that as we see doesn't even stop with/after police intervention.

[Rummy]

Whether it's smart or not deliberately conflating violence into these issues(and I don't know these fighters) - it seems one UFC fighter is bringing the #BLM to the Octagon;