Spiritgold Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 Honestly I literally thought....how much LSD they've done to come up with a game like this?!! Seriously this is a DAY ONE purchase!!! Everyone i've shown this to has liked LOL'ed and WTF? and said yes i'm getting that. Even convinced a few people to buy a 3DS just for this game..lol....truly Nintendo have produced another GEM. Right before E3 too..might see lot of promo's to sell it, but I think Smash Brothers 3DS will be the big talking point at E3 for its Summer release. Still this just looks immense =)
Rummy Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 Tbh this is how they need to do releases in some ways too - suprise announcement game out within just a few months. Gives a chance for the hype to build up - I know at least 3(4 including spiritgold above!) that are already saying it's a Day 1 purchase. If it wasn't due til February next year or something silly like that would people's excitement fizzle out? I wonder about streetpass integration too - maybe even hats from Streetpass quest. I really want to know more about this game but at the same time kinda wanna be suprised by it all when it comes!
RedShell Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 Tbh this is how they need to do releases in some ways too - suprise announcement game out within just a few months. Gives a chance for the hype to build up - I know at least 3(4 including spiritgold above!) that are already saying it's a Day 1 purchase. If it wasn't due til February next year or something silly like that would people's excitement fizzle out?Well, I've been insanely hyped for this game since 2012 when it was first revealed. In fact I've been dying to get my hands on this series, since 2009 when the DS version hit Japan! My excitement certainly hasn't fizzled out, but I'm probably an exception to the rule. And you're right, it's definitely a smart move for Nintendo to surprise people with announcements close to launch.
dazzybee Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 You can: Just amazing... I can't wait to do that. I don't quite know how much you can control the whole event, but the fact you can is good enough for me. I'm really looking forward to this.
Dcubed Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 Tbh this is how they need to do releases in some ways too - suprise announcement game out within just a few months. Gives a chance for the hype to build up - I know at least 3(4 including spiritgold above!) that are already saying it's a Day 1 purchase. If it wasn't due til February next year or something silly like that would people's excitement fizzle out? I wonder about streetpass integration too - maybe even hats from Streetpass quest. I really want to know more about this game but at the same time kinda wanna be suprised by it all when it comes! That's what Nintendo HAVE been doing recently. It's their standard MO; and distant announcements of games that are a long way off are the exception (like what happened back in January last year...) They were experimenting with this back in the Wii/DS era, but they took it to a crazy extreme (RIP Excitebots, with your 4 odd week gap between unveiling and release ). Now they seem to have settled on a 2-6 month unveil-release timeframe on average; ignoring any potential delays of course (like what happened to Mario Golf World Tour and DKCTF - which were both originally due to follow the same pattern until their respective delays).
Rummy Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 No gays allowed - http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/not-super-mario-nintendos-refusal-to-allow-gay-characters-sparks-upset-9341138.html Apparently making it into a few british papers, not a good bit of publicity and actually from a gameplay point of view a bit disappointing to even feel the need to distinguish these days.
Daft Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 "We hope that all of our fans will see that Tomodachi Life was intended to be a whimsical and quirky game, and that we were absolutely not trying to provide social commentary." Inaction is a form of action; a social commentary is exactly what they are providing. Personally I find it pretty offensive. Seriously, if I got this game I wouldn't be able to have a relationship with my boyfriend. Thanks. Are my black friends not allowed either? Yet again Nintendo displaying just how out of touch they are.
Ronnie Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 Agree, that's a frankly shocking reply from Nintendo. Very disappointed in them and it's put me off this game a bit.
Dcubed Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 (edited) Nintendo is right to stay out of this, it's a losing battle either way. If they bowed down to pressure and implemented it for the western release, then there's a ton more development work involved (you now have to deal with implementing civil partnerships, adoption, all sorts of other things and so much more QA work along with a guaranteed T rating in the US - ESRB recognises gay relationships as "explicit sexuality", while heterosexual relationships are merely implicit; sounds stupid but it's true). All this kind of stuff that they didn't consider including because they were just making a simple game and had other priorities rather than getting bogged down implementing all this stuff and making the game more complicated. Could be another 6-12 months development work potentially (which of course also takes away development resources from Nintendo SPD's upcoming games like a potential 2D Metroid, at which point is a localisation of Tomodachi even worth it anymore?) And not only that but it also sets a bad precedent for all of their future games. If they bow down to one pressure group, then now every other pressure group gets a free pass (otherwise that's a form of discrimination in of itself). PETA could complain about Mario wearing "cat fur" and then point to the example of them giving into the gay activists, so they should bow to this too. Or even angry fans who don't like the look of Link in the next Zelda and demand him to be re-designed, or they don't like certain gameplay mechanics and force them to change them; where does it end!? If they made a definitive statement the other way then they're made out to be gay badgers and lots of people would refuse to work with them in the future (the reverse may also be true to some extent). It's not appropriate for them to take a side and it's not in their interest to do so... Edited May 9, 2014 by Dcubed
Cube Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 Work needed to allow for homosexual relationships: 1. Add option to personality under "Preference": None, Male, Female, Both. 2. Make both Miis wear a suit during wedding. 3. Change the text for having a kid to mention adopting. I'd estimate that this would take about 20 minutes of work and a few weeks testing. It could easily be done in time for a day-one patch.
Serebii Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 Nintendo is right to stay out of this, it's a losing battle either way. If they bowed down to pressure and implemented it for the western release, then there's a ton more development work involved (you now have to deal with implementing civil partnerships, adoption, all sorts of other things and so much more QA work along with a guaranteed T rating in the US - ESRB recognises gay relationships as "explicit sexuality", while heterosexual relationships are merely implicit; sounds stupid but it's true). All this kind of stuff that they didn't consider including because they were just making a simple game and had other priorities rather than getting bogged down implementing all this stuff and making the game more complicated. Could be another 6-12 months development work potentially (which of course also takes away development resources from Nintendo SPD's upcoming games like a potential 2D Metroid, at which point is a localisation of Tomodachi even worth it anymore?) And not only that but it also sets a bad precedent for all of their future games. If they bow down to one pressure group, then now every other pressure group gets a free pass (otherwise that's a form of discrimination in of itself). PETA could complain about Mario wearing "cat fur" and then point to the example of them giving into the gay activists, so they should bow to this too. Or even angry fans who don't like the look of Link in the next Zelda and demand him to be re-designed, or they don't like certain gameplay mechanics and force them to change them; where does it end!? If they made a definitive statement the other way then they're made out to be gay badgers and lots of people would refuse to work with them in the future (the reverse may also be true to some extent). It's not appropriate for them to take a side and it's not in their interest to do so... Nintendo's statement indicates that they're listening and implies it'll be implemented in future iterations, too. What people are missing is a) You don't play as you. b) As you said, sorting it out would require a significant recode that would take a hell of a long time. It's not something that can just be patched, it'd almost certainly require a significant rewrite of the entire game. This game has been completed for over a year. The western versions are printed and waiting for release. It's not as easy as people are making out it should be. c) The rating issue is a big one. It's a real shame that the west considers gay relationships to warrant an increase in ratings. This needs to be ironed out and fast, yet people aren't pushing that. Should Nintendo have included it from the start? Yes, almost certainly. However, this amount of badgering and attacking is ridiculous.
Ronnie Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 It's not a question of taking sides, what they're doing is, basically, excluding 10% of the population. I don't agree with your assumption that it would be the start of a slippery slope and have animal activists and the like knocking on their door. This is a question of basic human rights. You honestly think it will take 6-12 months of development time just to add same sex relationships? How long has the entire game itself been in development for? It would be a minor tweak. If I do end up getting this game I'll be wondering wtf would I want my Mii to marry a female character. I most likely wouldn't bother, and would miss out on all that exclusive content.
Dcubed Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 (edited) Work needed to allow for homosexual relationships: 1. Add option to personality under "Preference": None, Male, Female, Both. 2. Make both Miis wear a suit during wedding. 3. Change the text for having a kid to mention adopting. I'd estimate that this would take about 20 minutes of work and a few weeks testing. It could easily be done in time for a day-one patch. That wouldn't work because the Mii child that gets created is based off the two parent Miis (the female Mii also gets pregnant - so they'd have to re-code the game to change that and remove the period of pregnancy too). Then people would complain that the feature is half hearted (and thus discriminatory) so they'd have to implement some sort of adoption facility where you can select the baby you want (on the plus side this could work for all couples, but it would be a LOT more dev work involved still). You'd also no doubt have people complaining about the presence of gay marriage as well so they may also decide to include civil partnerships too in order to keep the other group happy (even more work and QA testing now...) It's not as simple as flicking a switch for a quick and lazy fix because that would just piss off the LGBT community even more... (Not to mention the potential future ramifications on future games too...) Quite simply, it's not worth it. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose by responding to this movement. What they should do is keep out of this argument and just implement LGBT relationships when/if they make a sequel in the future. Edited May 9, 2014 by Dcubed
Cube Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 c) The rating issue is a big one. It's a real shame that the west considers gay relationships to warrant an increase in ratings. This needs to be ironed out and fast, yet people aren't pushing that. If that was indeed the real reason, Nintendo just missed the perfect opportunity to alleviate some of the pressure from their game and to make more people aware about this rating thing. Also, while you don't play as you, one big part of game is putting you (and your friends) into the game. so they'd have to implement some sort of adoption facility where you can select the baby you want I think you're overestimating how much control you have in the game. The Miis would chose their baby. Skipping the pregnancy stage would be pretty simple, too.
Serebii Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 If that was indeed the real reason, Nintendo just missed the perfect opportunity to alleviate some of the pressure from their game and to make more people aware about this rating thing. Also, while you don't play as you, one big part of game is putting you (and your friends) into the game. I think you're overestimating how much control you have in the game. The Miis would chose their baby. Skipping the pregnancy stage would be pretty simple, too. I agree. This really is something that shouldn't have happened, but it has and, if it was an easy fix, you can bet that Nintendo would do it... It's not like they want this sort of publicity.
Dcubed Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 (edited) I think you're overestimating how much control you have in the game. The Miis would chose their baby. Skipping the pregnancy stage would be pretty simple, too. If the Miis choose the baby themselves, then people would complain about not having a choice and about the feature being half arsed (which it would be, since it would blatantly just look like a mixture of the two gay Miis). They would then start demanding that they should be able to choose which baby Mii to adopt ("it is a life simulator after all! Why can't I simulate MY life?") It's a never ending rabbit hole. One simple feature then ends up ballooning into lots of other small features and before you know it, it becomes unfeasible for a localisation like this (and then you have the future ramifications once outside groups start playing armchair game designer with Nintendo's future games...) It would be a bad move from both a development standpoint and from a PR standpoint (sure they win brownie points for now, and also lose some from a select few, but it sets a precedent that wouldn't be able to escape from...) Edited May 9, 2014 by Dcubed
Ashley Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 Nintendo is right to stay out of this, it's a losing battle either way. If they bowed down to pressure and implemented it for the western release, then there's a ton more development work involved (you now have to deal with implementing civil partnerships, adoption, all sorts of other things and so much more QA work along with a guaranteed T rating in the US - ESRB recognises gay relationships as "explicit sexuality", while heterosexual relationships are merely implicit; sounds stupid but it's true). All this kind of stuff that they didn't consider including because they were just making a simple game and had other priorities rather than getting bogged down implementing all this stuff and making the game more complicated. Could be another 6-12 months development work potentially (which of course also takes away development resources from Nintendo SPD's upcoming games like a potential 2D Metroid, at which point is a localisation of Tomodachi even worth it anymore?) And not only that but it also sets a bad precedent for all of their future games. If they bow down to one pressure group, then now every other pressure group gets a free pass (otherwise that's a form of discrimination in of itself). PETA could complain about Mario wearing "cat fur" and then point to the example of them giving into the gay activists, so they should bow to this too. Or even angry fans who don't like the look of Link in the next Zelda and demand him to be re-designed, or they don't like certain gameplay mechanics and force them to change them; where does it end!? If they made a definitive statement the other way then they're made out to be gay badgers and lots of people would refuse to work with them in the future (the reverse may also be true to some extent). It's not appropriate for them to take a side and it's not in their interest to do so... I don't see how it is a "losing battle either way". I see how it's a difficult battle, but progress doesn't happen through a lack of effort. Nintendo chose to localise it for other markets and localisation is more than just translation. While the Japanese office may not know much about the socio-political make up of the other countries, it should have been the job of NOE and NOA to point out the potential problem at hand. And those conversations may have happened, but if they did and Nintendo marched on it suggests a rather troubling lack of care. Nobody expected Tomodachi to be released in the West, and I can't recall a big fan effort to get it here, so Nintendo could have quite have easily not released it (or waited for the sequel) rather than potentially segregate a share of their audience. While I understand that Japanese society is far less outwardly tolerant of LGBTQ (somewhat ironic considering their high camp media) it's lack of inclusion there isn't surprising (although it would be nice if they tried to push boundaries in some regards, but from a business POV I understand), but by bringing it to the West and ignoring the social differences (for a game designed to replicate life) is at the very least naive. Furthermore, I really don't like this idea that "they'll then have to pressure to all groups" for a variety of reasons. For one, it likens the LGBTQ community to "angry fans" only concerned with art styles (here's a hint: nobody has been victimised politically, legally, emotionally, physically or otherwise for liking a particular art style) but it also likens them to PETA (a group of pissants that don't deserve the time of day, and this is coming from a vegetarian) as if a rather militant activist group are the same as a portion of the society for whom many don't choose this 'defining feature' (obviously the issue of sexuality being a choice or not is a complicated one that would just veer things away from this, but essentially people typically don't choose to be LGBTQ in the same way people choose to sign up to PETA). Finally, this kind of "if we give in to this group, we'll have to give into every other group!" mentality is what has stopped a lot of progress. While I am in no way suggesting you are making as ludicrous statements, one only needs to look at far-right responses to gay marriage ("if we let gays married, then we'll have to let incest be legal!") to see how justifying a lack of inclusion for this reason is invalid. What the hell are "gay badgers" (unless you literally mean homosexual badgers, but I don't see the relevance)? If you're suggesting that by accommodating the LGBTQ community Nintendo may possibly alienate certain developers/fans...then they need to be actively trying to alienate those people. Those are not the people we want to be trying to accommodate. And in terms of "it is not in their interest" to take a side - Nintendo is a company made up of a diverse range of staff. I would argue it is in their interest to show that staff that they care about them (not to mention the fans). Why do you think companies like Apple, Pixar and Ikea have made public adverts/support for discriminated communities? Ignorance can be deadly. And furthermore, equality and inclusion shouldn't be something that you "have an interest in". It should be a right. Nintendo's statement indicates that they're listening and implies it'll be implemented in future iterations, too. What people are missing is a) You don't play as you. b) As you said, sorting it out would require a significant recode that would take a hell of a long time. It's not something that can just be patched, it'd almost certainly require a significant rewrite of the entire game. This game has been completed for over a year. The western versions are printed and waiting for release. It's not as easy as people are making out it should be. c) The rating issue is a big one. It's a real shame that the west considers gay relationships to warrant an increase in ratings. This needs to be ironed out and fast, yet people aren't pushing that. Should Nintendo have included it from the start? Yes, almost certainly. However, this amount of badgering and attacking is ridiculous. a) Not directly, but given Miis are an avatar of yourself it's not without reason to accept that most people will consider their character a version of themselves c) "the west". The whole West? Yes, it's a shame, but as Cube said progress doesn't happen through lack of effort. Nintendo could be at the forefront of trying to help make these kind of changes. While some titles include LGBTQ characters (Gone Home, The Last of Us), a big name like Nintendo showing public support would help bring the issue forward. Instead, by ignoring it one could argue it's helping to justify a lack of change. Anyway...where were we?
Serebii Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 I don't see how it is a "losing battle either way". I see how it's a difficult battle, but progress doesn't happen through a lack of effort. Nintendo chose to localise it for other markets and localisation is more than just translation. While the Japanese office may not know much about the socio-political make up of the other countries, it should have been the job of NOE and NOA to point out the potential problem at hand. And those conversations may have happened, but if they did and Nintendo marched on it suggests a rather troubling lack of care. Nobody expected Tomodachi to be released in the West, and I can't recall a big fan effort to get it here, so Nintendo could have quite have easily not released it (or waited for the sequel) rather than potentially segregate a share of their audience. While I understand that Japanese society is far less outwardly tolerant of LGBTQ (somewhat ironic considering their high camp media) it's lack of inclusion there isn't surprising (although it would be nice if they tried to push boundaries in some regards, but from a business POV I understand), but by bringing it to the West and ignoring the social differences (for a game designed to replicate life) is at the very least naive. Furthermore, I really don't like this idea that "they'll then have to pressure to all groups" for a variety of reasons. For one, it likens the LGBTQ community to "angry fans" only concerned with art styles (here's a hint: nobody has been victimised politically, legally, emotionally, physically or otherwise for liking a particular art style) but it also likens them to PETA (a group of pissants that don't deserve the time of day, and this is coming from a vegetarian) as if a rather militant activist group are the same as a portion of the society for whom many don't choose this 'defining feature' (obviously the issue of sexuality being a choice or not is a complicated one that would just veer things away from this, but essentially people typically don't choose to be LGBTQ in the same way people choose to sign up to PETA). Finally, this kind of "if we give in to this group, we'll have to give into every other group!" mentality is what has stopped a lot of progress. While I am in no way suggesting you are making as ludicrous statements, one only needs to look at far-right responses to gay marriage ("if we let gays married, then we'll have to let incest be legal!") to see how justifying a lack of inclusion for this reason is invalid. What the hell are "gay badgers" (unless you literally mean homosexual badgers, but I don't see the relevance)? If you're suggesting that by accommodating the LGBTQ community Nintendo may possibly alienate certain developers/fans...then they need to be actively trying to alienate those people. Those are not the people we want to be trying to accommodate. And in terms of "it is not in their interest" to take a side - Nintendo is a company made up of a diverse range of staff. I would argue it is in their interest to show that staff that they care about them (not to mention the fans). Why do you think companies like Apple, Pixar and Ikea have made public adverts/support for discriminated communities? Ignorance can be deadly. And furthermore, equality and inclusion shouldn't be something that you "have an interest in". It should be a right. a) Not directly, but given Miis are an avatar of yourself it's not without reason to accept that most people will consider their character a version of themselves c) "the west". The whole West? Yes, it's a shame, but as Cube said progress doesn't happen through lack of effort. Nintendo could be at the forefront of trying to help make these kind of changes. While some titles include LGBTQ characters (Gone Home, The Last of Us), a big name like Nintendo showing public support would help bring the issue forward. Instead, by ignoring it one could argue it's helping to justify a lack of change. Anyway...where were we? Well I was referring to the rating systems in the west, not the west in general. Apologies for any misunderstanding.
Ashley Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 Well I was referring to the rating systems in the west, not the west in general. Apologies for any misunderstanding. The overall point is still invalid (that it would be a mature rated game if they included LGBTQ relationships). The Sims 3 allows for homosexual relationships and it's rated 12 in the UK and Teen (13+) in the USA. Nintendo may typically like U-rated games, but it's not like all of their games are.
Ville Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 Nintendo chose to localise it for other markets and localisation is more than just translation. While the Japanese office may not know much about the socio-political make up of the other countries, it should have been the job of NOE and NOA to point out the potential problem at hand. And those conversations may have happened, but if they did and Nintendo marched on it suggests a rather troubling lack of care. Maybe they don't know, or maybe they just don't care. Either way, I think this is a perfect example of how oblivious they really can be about the markets outside Japan...Makes you wonder what the NoA and NoE are even for, just local distribution? Anyway, this kind of cultural short-sightedness and Japan-centricity is gonna bite them in the ass sooner or later, probably has already...
Debug Mode Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 Judging by the very minimal effort it would involve to implement same sex marriage, I would hazard a guess that Nintendo values the indifferent/against gay marriage market segment as more lucrative than those who want the feature. If the response was big enough, even the most stubborn of companies would have changed it for the money.
dazzybee Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 I guess that's going to stop this game being the next animal crossing then.... What's the betting all this will change review scores.... Interesting debate... Still looking forward to the game immensely!
Ronnie Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 I guess that's going to stop this game being the next animal crossing then.... What's the betting all this will change review scores.... It may alter 10% of review scores
Serebii Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 The overall point is still invalid (that it would be a mature rated game if they included LGBTQ relationships). The Sims 3 allows for homosexual relationships and it's rated 12 in the UK and Teen (13+) in the USA. Nintendo may typically like U-rated games, but it's not like all of their games are. I know, but what I'm saying is that the fact the idea of homosexual relationships causes a massive ratings bump, regardless of actual content is horrific and needs to be resolved
Ashley Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 (edited) I know, but what I'm saying is that the fact the idea of homosexual relationships causes a massive ratings bump, regardless of actual content is horrific and needs to be resolved And what I'm saying is The Sims 3 suggests that this isn't necessarily true (that it causes a bump). I tried to look at the PEGI detailed definitions to see what they say but couldn't find them (although didn't search too intensely). Edited May 9, 2014 by Ashley
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