Serebii Posted August 24, 2012 Posted August 24, 2012 Part of me feels that autism, aspergers etc. shouldn't necessarily be labelled as a mental condition or disability. It seems that everything that deviates from that which is designated "the norm" is classed as part of a condition these days.
Grazza Posted August 24, 2012 Posted August 24, 2012 When I was at primary school, one of my classmates said to me: "There's something wrong with you. You might not think so, but there is." I've never forgotten that. Even then, I thought he had a point. So what is it? I wouldn't be unhappy or even surprised to be somewhere in the "Autistic Spectrum", but the symptoms never quite seem to fit. I empathise with people and I understand emotions. Furthermore, I scored 17 on that test, which is pretty much as average as you can get! I do often feel as though I'm in my own world, as other people seem to react to it much differently to me. Half the time I entertain delusions about aliens and UFOs, but deep down I know I'm not being strictly "rational", and only doing it for entertainment. Somewhere under there is a normal brain. When I dream, hidden parts of my psyché are unlocked - I become romantic, daring and free - but it all disappears in my waking, conscious state. Maybe I'm just a weirdo! My parents call me "creative" or "imaginative", which I think are euphemisms for "mental"!
MoogleViper Posted August 24, 2012 Posted August 24, 2012 I think a lot of people would like to think that they're different, and therefore would like to be classed a mildly autistic, dyslexic or some such other. In reality we're all just sheeple.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted August 24, 2012 Posted August 24, 2012 Part of me feels that autism, aspergers etc. shouldn't necessarily be labelled as a mental condition or disability. It seems that everything that deviates from that which is designated "the norm" is classed as part of a condition these days. Except that severe autism is clearly a heavily disabling as well as medically documented condition. We're not just talking introverted people with tendencies. I think a lot of people would like to think that they're different, and therefore would like to be classed a mildly autistic, dyslexic or some such other. In reality we're all just sheeple. That may very well be the case, but to let that "devalue" actual, serious mental conditions is both naïve and counterproductive.
Serebii Posted August 24, 2012 Posted August 24, 2012 Except that severe autism is clearly a heavily disabling as well as medically documented condition. We're not just talking introverted people with tendencies. I am fully aware of that, but even people who have been diagnosed with it who just have mild "symptoms" are classed as having a mental condition and that is something I don't agree with.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted August 24, 2012 Posted August 24, 2012 I am fully aware of that, but even people who have been diagnosed with it who just have mild "symptoms" are classed as having a mental condition and that is something I don't agree with. That's fair enough. ADHD is a diagnosis I'm personally a little worried is being thrown around a little too lightly nowadays, and the problem is that it devalues mental conditions in some people's eyes (and as mentioned there's still a lot of people who don't take mental conditions seriously to begin with).
Raining_again Posted August 24, 2012 Posted August 24, 2012 It really frustrates me that people think its only the personality/social thing... -_- It has more than just that one symptom - sleep disorders, ocd, self harm, and sensory dysfunction, and a lack physical ability is common with autism. The intense fear that comes from an episode/attack is not just being a little "different" or something you can just "deal with". Its a real disability. Things that most people don't even need to think about, things you subconsciously do, like going to the shops, arranging to meet a friend, going out to eat and ordering something... everything has its difficulty and manifests in obsession. Even someone turning the tv over or having it on too loud can set me off in a panic these days... do you honestly think I'd even consider admitting to that to anyone I know in real life as if it were a medal? I'm barely coming to terms with the fact I'm going to have to speak to my doctor about this
Serebii Posted August 24, 2012 Posted August 24, 2012 It really frustrates me that people think its only the personality/social thing... -_- It has more than just that one symptom - sleep disorders, ocd, self harm, and sensory dysfunction, and a lack physical ability is common with autism. The intense fear that comes from an episode/attack is not just being a little "different" or something you can just "deal with". Its a real disability. Things that most people don't even need to think about, things you subconsciously do, like going to the shops, arranging to meet a friend, going out to eat and ordering something... everything has its difficulty and manifests in obsession. Even someone turning the tv over or having it on too loud can set me off in a panic these days... do you honestly think I'd even consider admitting to that to anyone I know in real life as if it were a medal? I'm barely coming to terms with the fact I'm going to have to speak to my doctor about this Forgive me, I didn't mean to imply that it all is. What I meant is that it is commonplace these days that many personality quirks often get diagnosed as things and that is what I dislike. Like with ADHD as @Dannyboy\-the\-Dane mentioned. Nowadays, if you're a child and you get bored in school, they'll try and diagnose you with that
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted August 24, 2012 Posted August 24, 2012 (edited) It really frustrates me that people think its only the personality/social thing... -_- It has more than just that one symptom - sleep disorders, ocd, self harm, and sensory dysfunction, and a lack physical ability is common with autism. The intense fear that comes from an episode/attack is not just being a little "different" or something you can just "deal with". Its a real disability. Things that most people don't even need to think about, things you subconsciously do, like going to the shops, arranging to meet a friend, going out to eat and ordering something... everything has its difficulty and manifests in obsession. Even someone turning the tv over or having it on too loud can set me off in a panic these days... do you honestly think I'd even consider admitting to that to anyone I know in real life as if it were a medal? I'm barely coming to terms with the fact I'm going to have to speak to my doctor about this Exactly. Actual mental illness is not just a "phase", or some sort of joke or excuse. It's not something people just "snap out of" or "deal with", and it's definitely not some sort of "get out of jail for free" card that people use to get away with stuff. We can discuss whether there's some sort of "inflation" going on at the moment with "mild" mental conditions, but in order to do that we need to take proper mental illness seriously. Edited August 24, 2012 by Dannyboy-the-Dane
Raining_again Posted August 24, 2012 Posted August 24, 2012 Forgive me, I didn't mean to imply that it all is. What I meant is that it is commonplace these days that many personality quirks often get diagnosed as things and that is what I dislike. Like with ADHD as @Dannyboy\-the\-Dane mentioned. Nowadays, if you're a child and you get bored in school, they'll try and diagnose you with that Aye I get it. Seems like ritalin is the cure for a naughty child rather than a smack and a telling off...
Serebii Posted August 24, 2012 Posted August 24, 2012 Aye I get it. Seems like ritalin is the cure for a naughty child rather than a smack and a telling off... Not allowed to smack your children these days, remember...so logically the only solution is to get them addicted to drugs
ipaul Posted August 24, 2012 Posted August 24, 2012 I scored 11 on that test - so I guess I'm fairly 'normal'? I used to be terribly shy as a child but nowadays I tend to do alright. I can get a little bit anxious about social situations that contain people I'm only vaguely familiar with - people I know or complete strangers don't really bother me. Occasionally a social occasion with feel like such an effort, but really this rarely happens anymore.
Ganepark32 Posted August 24, 2012 Posted August 24, 2012 Not allowed to smack your children these days, remember...so logically the only solution is to get them addicted to drugs ...Except Ritalin/methylphenidate carries a very, very small chance of addiction which is understandable given that its regulating dopamine re-uptake in the frontal areas of the brain to help with executive functions of attention rather than acting as a stimulant which alters neurochemical reward levels encoded in the amgydala or OFC leading to addiction. Believe the same goes for other medication used for treating ADHD like amphetamines and atomoxidene, although the latter works in a different way. At least studying cognitive neuroscience has paid off But I do agree with the over-diagnosis of things like ADHD. The number of prescriptions for it is increasing but it's not necessarily the case that all of the new cases of it have ADHD, as you've basically said, but rather that some kids are simply bored in class. It's an issue that's endemic of a lot of mental health issues (depression in particular) and the root of the problem is people not understanding the affliction properly and poorly trained professionals not having a proper grasp of the diagnostic criteria set out in the DSM. That said, I do think that the DSM itself is part of the issue as it makes it too easy for clinical psychologists or psychiatrists to label a person by only looking at the behavioural defects through a social outlook rather than actually go into the biological and neurological reasons behind it (which is what I'm more interested with regards to mental health issues). Thankfully things are changing slowly and moving away from a purely nurture sided diagnosis to a combination of physiological and psychological understanding. ------------------------ As for me, well I suffered from depression a few years back but that's it. Well apart from a weird memory thing that has all the hallmarks of PTSD without the traumatic experience that I haven't found an explanation for but has become a driving force for me in my desired research.
Coolness Bears Posted August 24, 2012 Posted August 24, 2012 I'm really utterly terrified of even minor changes, like even a road diversion if I've never been down that route before. I used to have extremely angry temper tantrums as a teen for no reason. Minor changes are horrible, like how do you explain to your supervisor that you don't like the fact that she is wearing a different shirt that you aren't used to (white with black swans) and that you will feel odd around her for the rest of the day because of it? As for the phone I don't go near it, I have to get my mum to make the call for me. It will take me weeks to send an E-mail before I have enough courage to send it. My mobile is always on silent as the ringing noise terrifies me. I really don't like talking about this though as I feel like I'm indulging in it as there are others with much worse problems than me but it's still a struggle. This which is why for my first year at university I didn't seek any help I didn't want to have it as an "excuse" as I've seen people use these things as an excuse when it's just laziness. I felt that it was cheating but when I finally did get help at University my tutor she explained to me that it's not cheating its helping me to get back to the "normal" level so I'm on the same plain as everyone else work wise. She was fantastic help and I wish I had gone to her sooner, I would've done much better as a result. One of the most embarrassing things is being unable to tie your own shoelace and have your own nephew come up to you for you to tie his and having to say that you can't.
jayseven Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 Just to say that what Rummy said is logical and isn't meant to belittle, it's just meant to help people who are different to understand that the frustration they feel when it seems nobody understand their issues is felt by everyone to some degree. I think :P I think though that understanding that there is some recognition, some deeper understanding available for anyone who is feeling different can help one shift their perceptions a little. My friend (previously mentioned in another thread) has learnt to alter his behaviour - he has learnt not to get angry when people tell him he's repeating himself; he's learnt that they aren't trying to offend, or misunderstanding him, just trying to help. People who aren't aware that they have a recognised thought process that causes confusion or conflict can find themselves to be angry, depressed, alone, and I think the first step is recognition, then one has to understand that the label they've now been stuck with is not the end of the world, which is what Rummy's hitting at I think? That being defined is no excuse to feel sorry for yourself, because everyone has an excuse to feel sorry for themselves and if we all spent our lives wallowing we'd never get anything done. This comes from a seasonal wallower. And however badly trained professionals may be perceived to be, they can understand and provide care far better than the generally ignorant public who, like you who, thinks the stigma is crippling. So; Live in ignorance and feel possibly misunderstood, alienated, confused, angry. or Live with the knowledge of your label and feel justified, righteous, opressed and aloof. 'Treatment' can't cure but can try to help understanding prevail. Harmony is what we need, and that requires focus on teh individual, not the label.
gaggle64 Posted August 25, 2012 Author Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) I'm sure this post will stir some people up, but hell, I'm just saying something which I'm sure people sometimes think but everyone's too goddamn afraid to say. Rummy, I love yah, but this has been the opening or closing statement of every speech Nick Griffin has ever given. So;Live in ignorance and feel possibly misunderstood' date=' alienated, confused, angry. or Live with the knowledge of your label and feel justified, righteous, opressed and aloof.[/quote'] Well in my personal experience more a case of: Live in increasing isolation, frustration and a constant state of mental exhaustion disrupting relationships with friends & family and not do anything about it or Live in increasing isolation, frustration and a constant state of mental exhaustion disrupting relationships with friends & family and try to do something about it Trust me seasonal wallflower, if positive thinking and "changing my behaviour" was all it took... Edited August 25, 2012 by gaggle64
The Bard Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) That's fair enough. ADHD is a diagnosis I'm personally a little worried is being thrown around a little too lightly nowadays, and the problem is that it devalues mental conditions in some people's eyes (and as mentioned there's still a lot of people who don't take mental conditions seriously to begin with). The problem is, that this particular disease and diagnosis is surrounded by a lot of sensationalism and controversy, without people looking into the essential scientific facts of the situation. The truth of the matter is neurological, and it's twofold. In people with ADHD, the nucleus accumbens, a brain area in the frontal cortex, responsible for executive functions (in other words, ability to consciously and deliberately focus on any given thing) is somewhat compromised. It's unable to function properly. The second problem is that perhaps as a result of this, in most ADHD the prefrontal cortex suffers a developmental lag of 3 1/2 years, as measured against a control group in an nMRI. Think of that; the most precious commodity we have as human beings, the command center of our brains, and by extension, our ability to memorise things, focus, our capacity to direct our actions, and to exert control, is reduced. In an instance of bafflingly simplistic logic, doctors think, oh! Dopamine is the currency that drives the nucleus accumbens, lets feed these poor kids amphetamines. It works, in the short term, but the problem is that the brain is a system in equilibrium; it will react to oppose any change imposed upon it, and in response to the amphetamines, it bushwacks dopamine receptors. I was, once upon a time, when I struggled with anger and depression, I was wrongfully diagnosed with ADHD, and took a small dose of methylphenidate for around six months. The interesting thing was the method of diagnosis. The had me take an IQ test. I got 122, which is by any measure a fucking good score, but nevertheless, I came up comparitively short on working memory and processing speed tests - apprently two things indicative of ADHD. It didn't help, all it did was get me a little high and made me want to do nothing but sit in bed and listen to music. What people don't realise is that ritalin is a stopgap measure, and that 65% of the time, there is no structural problem that isn't caused by some external factor. Depression, for example, causes many of the same symptoms, reducing frontal cortical thickness, yet psychiatrists often neglect to observe the emotional health of their subjects where an ADHD diagnosis is involved. The problem with me, was actually what has been theorised to be the problem with Charles Darwin - the reason the was often in a depressive torpor and unable to work; I had two undiagnosed food allergies. The interesting thing about the compounds that I'm intolerant to in Wheat and Milk, is that not only can I not process them, but they have a physical structure very similar to opiates. It's been theorised that around 60% of the people diagnosed with ADHD actually have some sort of food allergy that contributes to a lowering of brain dopamine, which being a sort of currency in the brain, reduces the ability of the frontal cortex to function at optimal. Not sure if I'm really addressing anything here, but I just thought I'd ramble for a bit. Edited August 25, 2012 by The Bard
Iun Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 I am one of the people mentioned in the op. I think gaggle64 has been more help to me than he could possibly realise, just by being there and talking to me about this stuff. I thought I was just having episodes of depression but lately i've noticed that i'm a bit ocd about things, which seem to appear a lot with food. I like eating things a certain way, or . Food SHOULD be eaten in a certain way! You go round in a circle eating a little of each evenly, like this: Meat first, root vegetables, above ground vegetables, beans, potatoes. In THAT ORDER on the plate and THAT ORDER ONLY.
jayseven Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 @gaggle64 please don't misread what I'm saying - I'm not saying "oh it's easy, just change your behaviour and click your heels together 3 times - and cross your fingers," as it's a largely impossible task that is endured for the rest of one's life. I never said it was easy. Doesn't mean that changing behaviour is not useful or helpful. I'm obviously not saying what I mean clearly, and it's a delicate subject. I do like the wallower-wallflower transposition :P Very good.
Rummy Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) Unless you've had severe mental issues yourself, Rummy, I don't feel you can say that. Do you actually know how hard it is? I could flip it around and point out that mental illnesses are often not taken seriously, with people saying they just need to "get over it" or something similar. Hell, I've had it "easy" compared to many. Sure, there are probably some who's keen to use it as an excuse, but that post comes off as needlessly cynical about mental illnesses in general. This is my point. YOU don't feel that *I* can say that. *I* don't realise how hard it is. Maybe I do realise how hard it is, but I just think there's much worse things out there? The latter point of your post was what I was saying, it's not the end of the world, and tbh, it's not as bad as a lot of other things. Not to mention it doesn't have a 'cure'. Autism isn't anything new, I'm sure, it's just becoming this bigger point of contention when I think it's probably always existed and people always survived. Now we have to put a label on it and make a big issue out of it. What much can you do for autism, really? Even in itself it's a spectrum, and I'd say most of the folks here are even on the better end of it. Here's an interesting' date=' and slightly worrying, experiment about how nobody in psychiatry really knows what they're talking about[/url']. The concept of nobody really knowing what they are doing is pretty much the centrepiece for my mind's perception of mankind. There are so many external factors to one's life that control the limits, that the actual elements of control one does have are completely dwarfed. Yet people roam around in their suits and high heels, shaven faces and make-up; the same people will look at amazonian tribespeople with sticks through their noses and green pigment all over their skin and say "well aren't I glad I don't live in a society where I have to do silly things like that." I do remember hearing about that many a time, and would love to see it repeated today. However, I don't think it's very fair to equate a ~40 year old study an a present tense statement how 'how nobody in psychiatry really knows what they're talking about'. Maybe they were a bit shitter 40 years ago, and maybe they've still got a ways to go, but I expected you to know better than to pull that. I think a lot of people would like to think that they're different, and therefore would like to be classed a mildly autistic, dyslexic or some such other. In reality we're all just sheeple. That may very well be the case, but to let that "devalue" actual, serious mental conditions is both naïve and counterproductive. I share Moogle's sentiment somewhat, and I think it DOES lead to conditions being devalued. Just to say that what Rummy said is logical and isn't meant to belittle' date=' it's just meant to help people who are different to understand that the frustration [i']they[/i] feel when it seems nobody understand their issues is felt by everyone to some degree. I think :P I think though that understanding that there is some recognition, some deeper understanding available for anyone who is feeling different can help one shift their perceptions a little. My friend (previously mentioned in another thread) has learnt to alter his behaviour - he has learnt not to get angry when people tell him he's repeating himself; he's learnt that they aren't trying to offend, or misunderstanding him, just trying to help. People who aren't aware that they have a recognised thought process that causes confusion or conflict can find themselves to be angry, depressed, alone, and I think the first step is recognition, then one has to understand that the label they've now been stuck with is not the end of the world, which is what Rummy's hitting at I think? That being defined is no excuse to feel sorry for yourself, because everyone has an excuse to feel sorry for themselves and if we all spent our lives wallowing we'd never get anything done. This comes from a seasonal wallower. And however badly trained professionals may be perceived to be, they can understand and provide care far better than the generally ignorant public who, like you who, thinks the stigma is crippling. So; Live in ignorance and feel possibly misunderstood, alienated, confused, angry. or Live with the knowledge of your label and feel justified, righteous, opressed and aloof. 'Treatment' can't cure but can try to help understanding prevail. Harmony is what we need, and that requires focus on teh individual, not the label. Hitting on the sentiments I was trying to get across. I guess I get more frustrated with the whole autism thing because(and of course it's not representative, because I can't count the ones who don't tell me), but I've known people on forums and stuff who are keen to mention their aspergers, and I'm like 'ok, so?' coupled with the fact there isn't really a treatment for autism, yes knowing can help, but I feel it can become a crutch for some. Btw on the case of talking about selfs, iirc I was 20 on that test. I'm already aware I have some mild traits in places however, and I notice some in both my dad and definitely my sister. Edited August 25, 2012 by Rummy
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) Just to say that what Rummy said is logical and isn't meant to belittle' date=' it's just meant to help people who are different to understand that the frustration [i']they[/i] feel when it seems nobody understand their issues is felt by everyone to some degree. I think :P I think though that understanding that there is some recognition, some deeper understanding available for anyone who is feeling different can help one shift their perceptions a little. My friend (previously mentioned in another thread) has learnt to alter his behaviour - he has learnt not to get angry when people tell him he's repeating himself; he's learnt that they aren't trying to offend, or misunderstanding him, just trying to help. People who aren't aware that they have a recognised thought process that causes confusion or conflict can find themselves to be angry, depressed, alone, and I think the first step is recognition, then one has to understand that the label they've now been stuck with is not the end of the world, which is what Rummy's hitting at I think? That being defined is no excuse to feel sorry for yourself, because everyone has an excuse to feel sorry for themselves and if we all spent our lives wallowing we'd never get anything done. This comes from a seasonal wallower. And however badly trained professionals may be perceived to be, they can understand and provide care far better than the generally ignorant public who, like you who, thinks the stigma is crippling. So; Live in ignorance and feel possibly misunderstood, alienated, confused, angry. or Live with the knowledge of your label and feel justified, righteous, opressed and aloof. 'Treatment' can't cure but can try to help understanding prevail. Harmony is what we need, and that requires focus on teh individual, not the label. That's all well and good, but where I really need to step off the bus is when people start to call mental illness nothing more than a label, an excuse. I'm going to be honest here, it angered me profusely when Rummy called mental illness a "first world problem", because that argument is quite frankly ridiculous. I could flip it around and say nobody should be happy about anything because there's always someone who has it better, but really, the main problem with calling it a "first world problem" is that it severely misses the point of what mental illness is and does. What seems to really bother Rummy is apparently the impression he gets that people with mental conditions seem to use it as an excuse for not trying to improve, that the diagnosis doesn't help anything. To that I can only conclude that he knows very little about it. Trying to improve is not simply a matter of getting off your bum and pulling yourself together, it requires enormous, serious, focused effort, and even then you must be prepared to hit rock bottom several times. And remember, this is all just to function somewhat normally. A diagnosis is important in order to deal with a mental condition properly. Like mentioned it requires a serious and focused effort on the specific areas where things aren't working. I've seen countless times what a wrong approach due to a misjudgement of the problem can do - best case scenario, it does nothing; worst case scenario, it makes everything much, much worse. What Rummy describes are people who use a diagnosis as an excuse for getting their way and not trying to better themselves. While these people undoubtedly do exist, it is absolutely crucial to understand that this is NOT a fair representation of mental illness. In fact most people with severe mental illness wouldn't be able to even try to justify their behaviour - they're busy enough simply trying to get through the day. Some of the people that Rummy describes - and now I'm moving into territory where I myself am only theorising - seem to be people with less severe issues or people who have already improved somewhat. They're able to function in their daily lives, but they're still dealing with stuff. That can actually be the most troublesome stage, because they've reached a level of functionality that can seem "sufficient" to them. A friend of mine told me about a relative of his who was suffering from severe depression. She would spend all day in bed, doing absolutely nothing. Then she went into treatment and started to improve, and once she reached a minimum of functionality, she killed herself. Until then she hadn't even been able to end her own suffering, which is what most people see as the absolutely last frontier. The diagnosis system is by no means flawless, I'll be the first to acknowledge that. As we've discussed there seems to be a form of inflation happening, of every man and his dog wanting or being given some sort of diagnosis as soon as their personality is not completely rigid and perfect. This seems to be the actual issue Rummy is bothered by, this apparent tendency for some people to use some diagnosis they got to excuse their own annoying idiosyncrasies and to highlight that they're special. These people are NOT in ANY way representative of people with actual mental illness and should never, ever be considered as such. They are ruining the respect and understanding that people have worked hard to build up around actual mental disabilities. This is my point. YOU don't feel that *I* can say that. *I* don't realise how hard it is. Maybe I do realise how hard it is, but I just think there's much worse things out there? The latter point of your post was what I was saying, it's not the end of the world, and tbh, it's not as bad as a lot of other things. Not to mention it doesn't have a 'cure'. Autism isn't anything new, I'm sure, it's just becoming this bigger point of contention when I think it's probably always existed and people always survived. Now we have to put a label on it and make a big issue out of it. What much can you do for autism, really? Even in itself it's a spectrum, and I'd say most of the folks here are even on the better end of it. I'm beginning to see what you're driving at, and what I think is the point is that you're talking about relatively "mild" cases of autism. Most of what you say simply doesn't apply to more severe cases, which suggests to me you haven't been exposed much to such cases. We can do a lot for autism (hell, I'm the prime example of that - you should have seen me when I was a kid), so why shouldn't we? Should we go back to the old days where we didn't make a big deal of it and just let people go about in their own little demon-ridden worlds? That seems awfully counterprogressive. Edited August 25, 2012 by Dannyboy-the-Dane Automerged Doublepost
jayseven Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 I think you're belittling people with mild forms of health issues by saying they're not actually suffering from mental illness :P I'm kidding. The semantics is correct - they're not suffering like those with a debilitating problem, but that doesn't mean they don't have an actual illness. This kind of misappropriation of meaning is the only reason we're all writing walls of text -- misunderstanding, and taking things to heart when the message is aimed at the mind. i don't think that anyone is implying that mental health issues are made up, though me assuming that I can speak for what everyone is thinking is rather going against what I'm going to say next; tehre's no way we can know for sure how everyone thinks. We can't assume that everyone who thinks like us will act like us - we can't assume the opposite, either. if someone on here started saying "all deaf people are cunts," or "all ginger people hate gypsies" then I'm going to feel, as a deaf and ginger kid, that I have to stick up for my creed... without really knowing if the statement is true or not. If I say that I think we're all made up of a bunch of disorders, that it's 'normal' to be fucked up, I'm not shrinking the value of one who legitimately wants their suffering to be recognised. We don't have to choose. We can have both. I'll let rummy speak for himself, of course!
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 I never said people with mild forms of mental illness were not actually suffering from mental illness. Read closely! I said that it's a mistake to think of every individual idiosyncrasy and expression of personal weirdness as a mental illness, because that both devalues the suffering people with actual illnesses go through as well as our uniqueness as human beings. My overall point, which I'm sure you got, was naturally that there are many, many different degrees and types of mental states and conditions, and painting them all with the same, broad brush will never lead to anything good. I do agree with your overall points, I believe. You make an excellent one in that it's often hard to imagine how other people think and react. That's exactly the problem we face with mental illness - in both directions. That's why, as someone who's been close to these things, not just my own situation, but many others of varying seriousness as well, I felt it was important to debunk some of the common misconceptions about mental illness. The crux of the matter is trying to understand each other.
jayseven Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 That's my point - that you aren't saying that, yet it can be construed that you are saying that! My secpnd paragraph ("I'm kidding...") is meant to explain that. I completely agree with the illness thing. I've fretted and been bothered about the 'correct' phrase to use in this thread. It's suddenly very understandably why 'political correctness' came to be. Trying to think of a term to describe something without offending, then trying to think of a term that doesn't sound like it's trying to avoid offending, as that is kind of offensive in itself... I completely agree that there are many states of mental being; I'm sure there are just as many as people, even! It's a tricky thing to contemplate, though, when you need to both say "autism is but one element of your conscious nature" and also say "autism explains your nature." The problem is that we are trying to classify an element of being as an explanation of that mode of being... It's very hard to both minimise and maximise the same thing - but I think we are guilty of doing that exact hypocritical thing constantly! We want to minimise the role of our 'disorder' in terms of how we define ourselves, yet we need to maximise it when trying to get others to understand. Hypocricy is my favourite thing to ponder currently. It's very hard to get away from. But yes -- the irony of trying to rationalise differing rationalities to people who all differ in how they ration... To think about this thread another way; it isn't meant to be insulting when one says "you are selfish" - for you put yourself first -- you experience your self before you experience your world. How you perceive nature is the ONLY way you perceive nature, so to hear it is wrong, ill, disabled, retarded, diseased, dislocated, unreal, insane... well, that's to hear that your whole EXISTENCE is undermined. So the self-defensive module of thought comes into play... And I'm rambling again. Thank you, dannyboy, for understanding I don't know if I've gotten worse at it or just extremely aware of its intentions, but I'm finding it difficult to actually just communicate these days, without there being a load of baggage on top. EDIT: See if I had decent rationality I could reduce this post down to half the words.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted August 25, 2012 Posted August 25, 2012 I do seem to have noticed a more rambling nature to your posts since you came back, but I always read them carefully to understand what you're trying to say, because I know it's bound to be interesting.
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