Fierce_LiNk Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Welp, that's it.Looks like another edition to my 'you're dead to me' list. I am excluded off that list a million times over, thanks to my love for the Little King. And his Story.
Grazza Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 I know it's a joke, but meh. TP's music is under-rated. Hyrule Field's night music, Midna's Desperate Hour, Lake Hylia's music and quite a few others are much better than anything in Skyward Sword. Even Hyrule Field's day music tops SS's soundtrack. Oh yeah, TP's soundtrack is fantastic, and even better when orchestrated. The Twilight Princess Symphony on the CD that came with Skyward Sword is even better than the Wind Waker one.
Fierce_LiNk Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Oh yeah, TP's soundtrack is fantastic, and even better when orchestrated. The Twilight Princess Symphony on the CD that came with Skyward Sword is even better than the Wind Waker one. Yes. It's almost gone unnoticed, which is a shame. I did like the quality of the music in Skyward Sword, but the music itself isn't very memorable. I do like Skyloft's theme, it's very fitting. Parts of the Sky music are nice, too. But, it doesn't feel quite right below the Sky. There are some great ideas in the game that could have been better. One of the biggest ones (which I don't really see mentioned anywhere) is the Harp playing sections of the game. It's disappointing how those sections of the game played out. I don't think the Ocarina has been topped, and admittedly I have no idea how they would have incorporated the harp like the Ocarina, but it should've been better.
Grazza Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Having said that, as much as I do appreciate aspects of Twilight Princess and as much as I agree with many criticisms of Skyward Sword, I have just read something that has put it all into perspective. It's an outstanding article by Christian Donlan on Eurogamer, about what I consider the series' highlight, Wind Waker: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-04-15-retrospective-the-legend-of-zelda-the-wind-waker I've already posted it on the retro board, and I wonder if I shouldn't post it in this thread, but I have and I'll explain why. The article has reminded me how uniquely brilliant Wind Waker was. Let's say Nintendo fixed all our specific criticisms about recent Zeldas... Unfortunately, I still have doubts that would be enough on its own. When you recall the many genius aspects of Wind Waker, it's just too much for anyone to explain. Sadly, I wonder if Nintendo (or any game company) is up to it. Sorry to be negative, but perhaps the genius has flown the nest? Hopefully not.
Ronnie Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Wind Waker was pure genius in every aspect and a series highlight IMO, since then Nintendo have paid too much attention to the fanboys and making the game 'accessible', they need to take a risk for Zelda Wii and not just give us another generic Twilight Princess with HD graphics.
Grazza Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 I agree, Ronnie, I just think "Twilight Princess in HD" is better than a halfway compromise. Wind Waker is the best of all, though, there's no doubt about that. The idea that Nintendo took criticism of Wind Waker to heart is the worst thing that happened to gaming.
Jonnas Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 I don't see much of an issue of that, considering that the main quest is very large and substantial. Ever since Majora's Mask, there has been this big urge for sidequests, which is nice. But, I'm not totally convinced that every Zelda since then needs to have a million things to do outside of the main quest. Skyward Sword does have a lot of things to do, but I would also argue that it's main focus, which is the main story is not as good or exciting as TP's. I've only played Majora's Mask very recently. I don't think it stems from that game. I've realised exploration and sidequests are the real heart of Zelda since Ocarina of Time, or rather, since Starfox Adventures. When I heard Starfox Adventures was "Zelda-like", I was excited, only to soon realise there was nothing to do there besides the main story. So it wasn't "Zelda-like" at all, it was just an Adventure game, it was like calling Kirby's Dream Land "Mario-like". I think it's by focusing on the main quest that people get disappointed by Wind Waker. There's a game that's more about exploration than anything else. Just saying, I don't think the main quest is the heart of Zelda. I know it's a joke, but meh. TP's music is under-rated. Hyrule Field's night music, Midna's Desperate Hour, Lake Hylia's music and quite a few others are much better than anything in Skyward Sword. Even Hyrule Field's day music tops SS's soundtrack. TP has some good tracks, but SFA is better in that regard Also, I've always thought TP's Hyrule Field theme was overrated. Never saw the appeal. Wind Waker was pure genius in every aspect and a series highlight IMO, since then Nintendo have paid too much attention to the fanboys and making the game 'accessible', they need to take a risk for Zelda Wii and not just give us another generic Twilight Princess with HD graphics. Those two directly contradict each other But seriously, being more accessible is hardly detrimental, Wind Waker was easy to pick up, and easy as a game. Just saying, I think it's the wrong argument.
Ronnie Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Those two directly contradict each other No they don't? They're totally separate. But seriously, being more accessible is hardly detrimental, Wind Waker was easy to pick up, and easy as a game. Just saying, I think it's the wrong argument. Skyward Sword, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks were 'easy to pick', the player was hand-held, and the games was fairly self-explanatory, and in the case of the DS games, dumbed down.
Jonnas Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 No they don't? They're totally separate. Dude, it was a joke Because fanboys aren't actually asking for... oh, nevermind. Skyward Sword, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks were 'easy to pick', the player was hand-held, and the games was fairly self-explanatory, and in the case of the DS games, dumbed down. But did any of that stop it from becoming as good as Wind Waker? I'm pretty sure what stopped them from becoming Wind Waker was a whole slew of other design choices. Because the core games were never supposed to be like that. Wind Waker could easily be made more accessible to a larger crowd. You can have the same concept with SS's control scheme. Different items and puzzles to readjust, but still the same core aspects. That was my point, "more accessible" isn't stopping anything. Also, "the games were self-explanatory"? What does that even mean?
Mr-Paul Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 Although there's so many great things about Wind Waker - the look, the sound, the characters, I just don't think it was quite as exciting as the other 3D Zeldas in terms of its story and its gameplay, and the sea was too big and boring for me. Whenever I go to replay it, I always get as far as Windfall island but then don't get much motivation to go any further. For me, I have much preferred Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess before it, I never understood all its criticism and thought it was brilliant when it came out, and still do.
Fused King Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 It's quite obvious that Windwaker is the best Zelda game ever, solely because of the fact that it has THE MOST awesome sidequest ever, and it involves a PictoBox Seriously, It's such a joy to look for every living creature in the WW-universe and take a picture of it, in order to get a figurine made out of those same pictures. It promotes replayability by taking snaps of Ganondorf or bosses, and makes one feel like a daring photographer in search for adventure. No other Zelda has accomplished such an awesome way of re-exploring the world in my opinion. I also would like to express my love for the Twilight Princess OST and would like to promote the following: http://www.zreomusic.com/ ZREO is working on a big project called Twilight Symphony. They'll be re-imaging the score of Twilight Princess with a full-fledged orchestra and what not:D Shall I get the paint out so I can colour you lot hyped?
Grazza Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 I've only played Majora's Mask very recently. I don't think it stems from that game.I've realised exploration and sidequests are the real heart of Zelda since Ocarina of Time, or rather, since Starfox Adventures. I do agree, but I also think Majora's Mask developed the idea, or at least introduced the concept of "schedule". Whilst I enjoyed the time travel, what really blew my mind is the idea that someone would try to make a delivery to the farm, or Kafei would leave Clock Town and travel to the canyon. Maybe it was a little bit too complicated, which is why I thought they refined it perfectly in Wind Waker, with the NPC routines on Windfall, spying on the man who posted a love letter every day! For the next game, I would love to see NPCs going about their business in the fields, going between towns, crossing seas, making deliveries etc, and all on a daily or 3-day cycle etc.
darksnowman Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 So much to respond to in the last couple of pages. I love a good Zelda discussion. I'm just gonna single this out though: I do agree, but I also think Majora's Mask developed the idea, or at least introduced the concept of "schedule". Whilst I enjoyed the time travel, what really blew my mind is the idea that someone would try to make a delivery to the farm, or Kafei would leave Clock Town and travel to the canyon. Maybe it was a little bit too complicated, which is why I thought they refined it perfectly in Wind Waker, with the NPC routines on Windfall, spying on the man who posted a love letter every day! For the next game, I would love to see NPCs going about their business in the fields, going between towns, crossing seas, making deliveries etc, and all on a daily or 3-day cycle etc. Yes! Having the NPCs have their little daily routines really does make a difference. It just adds a layer of realism and immersion that you don't necessarily notice when its there, but you do miss it when its not. (Wind Waker is great but its probably my fourth or fifth favourite Zelda... )
Jonnas Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 I do agree, but I also think Majora's Mask developed the idea, or at least introduced the concept of "schedule". Pokémon Gold&Silver came first, though But yeah, I get what you're saying. On the same vein, it would be cool to see a Zelda with a real-time clock.
darksnowman Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 Pokémon Gold&Silver came first, though But yeah, I get what you're saying. On the same vein, it would be cool to see a Zelda with a real-time clock. The Legend of Animal Crossing! You could be onto something here!
Grazza Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 The more I think about it, the more I realise that Wind Waker actually had an 8-day cycle! The moon had eight different versions, which affected at least three things I can think of: - Which Goron salesmen were on which islands - Ghost Ship location - Which Legendary Pictographs you could get from the photographer on Windfall Island
Jonnas Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 There was also a couple of guys that wanted to see the moon in specific phases (one of them via pictograph), but those probably don't count.
Hamishmash Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 The Triforce Hunt in Wind Waker is probably my favourite gaming moment ever and I still so shocked at how people consider that a low point for the series. It was GENUINE treasure hunting! Map reading... it was just wonderful. And I think the sailing is perfect, I love how long and difficult it is. Making it easy would ruin the feeling of that massive ocean.
Fused King Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) There was also a couple of guys that wanted to see the moon in specific phases (one of them via pictograph), but those probably don't count. I thought there was only one, slightly depressed, dude who wanted to have a snapshot of a full moon in colour. Can't recall any others who wanted snaps of the moon.. The Triforce Hunt in Wind Waker is probably my favourite gaming moment ever and I still so shocked at how people consider that a low point for the series. It was GENUINE treasure hunting! Map reading... it was just wonderful. And I think the sailing is perfect, I love how long and difficult it is. Making it easy would ruin the feeling of that massive ocean. Well, it was indeed genuine treasure hunting, but wouldn't it have been nice if a few more pieces were in some similar predicament like the one which is trapped in the Ghost Ship (at least I think there was one trapped in there). Could've been a nice opportunity for a few more interesting stories in the sense that people or creatures had put a piece of the Triforce to some other use, unbeknownst of its legendary origins. Heck, some kid could've been using it to crack open shells or something I'm not saying the hunt was boring and uninspired, but it was at the very least a little boring and uninspired. Edited April 16, 2012 by Fused King Automerged Doublepost
Grazza Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 The Triforce Hunt in Wind Waker is probably my favourite gaming moment ever and I still so shocked at how people consider that a low point for the series. It was GENUINE treasure hunting! Map reading... it was just wonderful. And I think the sailing is perfect, I love how long and difficult it is. Making it easy would ruin the feeling of that massive ocean. Yes, quite. I've been thinking about why I didn't much like Skyward Sword, the core reason, I mean, and I think I've worked out what it was. Previously, Zelda games incorporated rich worlds to explore, almost like playsets. Wind Waker took it to the extreme with the 8-day cycle and, as the Eurogamer article puts it, a "huge skybox". I can't stress enough how much that quote struck a chord with me. A huge skybox is exactly what all of the subsequent games don't have. It may sound like a boring, technical thing, but it's actually the key to why Wind Waker was so immersive. By not breaking up the map into separate "rooms", Nintendo were able to create an unparalleled level of immersion, as there was not a single loading screen in the entire overworld. Yes, the islands were small and far apart, but that's why you need new technology to drive things forward. By setting up this technical marvel, we, the gamers, were able to take it however we wanted - either progressing the main story or tinkering about with the sidequests. Skyward Sword, on the other hand, was not a technical marvel. It was less like a game and more like a story you played through. To me, the issue is not Fi giving hints about where to go (there have always been hints), it's how you are escorted through the game. "Now do this, now do that. Scene 1, Scene 2, Scene 3... etc". All games have to be somewhat linear, but previous Zeldas gave you a world to play about in, for you to progress the story at your leisure. Setting aside whether things like the trials and collectathons were fun (my opinion - not, but it's entirely subjective), the problem is that they were scenes set up for you, rather than something you could activate when you wanted. Now compare this to Wind Waker's Triforce Hunt - that is not a "scene". It is a game event that takes place in exactly the same overworld you've been exploring and plays 100% consistently with how you've been playing the rest of the game. Find the pieces in any order you like. Stop off at any unexplored islands you might find on the way. Basically, you can still do whatever you like. At the end of the day, I'm not saying everyone should like Wind Waker or that all Zelda games should be exactly like it, but I am saying that they should be made with the same spirit and passion for technical excellence, combined with a general sense of "play". That doesn't mean they all have to be set at sea. Personally, I think those who suggested Zelda in space understood the series more than those who would keep it strictly a leafy fantasy. Far better to keep changing the setting and remain the same series at heart than to do something like Skyward Sword, as to me, the series is becoming something that is only Zelda in name.
Ike Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 The Triforce Hunt in Wind Waker is probably my favourite gaming moment ever and I still so shocked at how people consider that a low point for the series. I did think there was going to be another 8 dungeons, I was disappointed when I found out there wasn't :P However the Triumph Forks hunt involves Tingle so all is good. Just completed a run through the original LoZ on my 3DS, still a great game. Was surprised I managed to clear it in roughly 4 hours. *Totally unrelated*
Hamishmash Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 I love how in Wind Waker, essentially, the entire world is open to you from the start. Obviously you can't go everywhere but it doesn't feel like anything is cut off. It feels like the original Legend of Zelda, in that respect. You're just plonked there. I'd love to see that way of doing things established better on land.
Retro_Link Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) OK well 6 months late to the party... ... I've just started Skyward Sword! Just about to go off to the first 'temple' and have enjoyed the intro section so far. But damn the controls are annoying atm! I keep pressing 'C' to centre the camera behind Link, and thus keep entering first person. And I do this because the auto-camera doesn't feel particularly tight so keep wanting to adjust it but I can't. Pick-up and Throw is no longer a simple button press, oh no! Nor is rolling (I now have to be dashing too). And nor is selecting items! (theres this stupid motion navigated pouch!) Jumping between objects is incredible stiff, and thus simple tasks like crossing those 4 rocks over the river on Skyloft has resulted in me falling in the water *when I'm better than this* And the free-falling off of the Goddess Statue... I didn't feel like I properly knew how to control it. *frustrating!!* Can't even swing my sword whilst running! Oh yeah and shield/sword feel awkward too atm. Maybe I won't be saying it 5-10hrs in, but bring back the simple button controls so I can just get on and enjoy the game! :p ... OH yeah and STAMINA!!!?... really!? ... That's... fun. Edited May 9, 2012 by Retro_Link
Jonnas Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 OK well 6 months late to the party... ... I've just started Skyward Sword! Putting the "Retro" in "Retro_Link" :P Pick-up and Throw is no longer a simple button press, oh no!Nor is rolling (I now have to be dashing too). And nor is selecting items! (theres this stupid motion navigated pouch!) You'll quickly get used to the first one, trust me. Bowling is the new throwing (If you ask me, having to run to throw a pot gave me way more headaches in the previous game than in here. Probably just me, though) Going from "running" to "dashing" is a minuscule difference, I think. As for the nunchuck wag, that's also something you'll get used to (Not that it makes much difference, you only need to roll to get things from trees, or to break pottery for fun ) Personally, I like picking items in real time. If the pointer really is an issue for you, just remember to understand how re-centering works, it's really handy. And the free-falling off of the Goddess Statue... I didn't feel like I properly knew how to control it. Oh yeah, that's a bitch to learn. You can get there with practice (you can dive off the bird at any time to do this), but still. Can't even swing my sword whilst running! The only place where this is really bothersome is when cutting grass. Therefore, here's a tip: Skyward Strikes can be sent horizontally. Use that to cut the grass.
Retro_Link Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 Putting the "Retro" in "Retro_Link" :P You'll quickly get used to the first one, trust me. Bowling is the new throwing (If you ask me, having to run to throw a pot gave me way more headaches in the previous game than in here. Probably just me, though) Going from "running" to "dashing" is a minuscule difference, I think. As for the nunchuck wag, that's also something you'll get used to (Not that it makes much difference, you only need to roll to get things from trees, or to break pottery for fun ) Personally, I like picking items in real time. If the pointer really is an issue for you, just remember to understand how re-centering works, it's really handy. Oh yeah, that's a bitch to learn. You can get there with practice (you can dive off the bird at any time to do this), but still. The only place where this is really bothersome is when cutting grass. Therefore, here's a tip: Skyward Strikes can be sent horizontally. Use that to cut the grass. Having to be dashing to roll, just seems like an unnecessary complication... why can't I just roll from walking (which isn't even walking it's fast enough).It's just cumbersome because you actually have to go further out of your way to distance yourself from the tree before you can turn around and dash-roll into it. But anyway, yeah like all these things I'll get used to it, it's just it seems like the controls have been made more complicated, which isn't really the way you expect games to progress! Honestly my first skydive off of that Goddess wasn't pretty! :p I seemed to get what I thought would be the controls completely wrong (again a case of the game seemingly going against the intuative... at least for me anyway), and shot backwards into and down the statue. lol. Yeah I found the horizontal Skyward Strikes. It's not so much that it's bothersome, it's the fact that running and swinging your sword around as you go is just something fun to do, something that seems to have been needlessly removed, and in the process made the gameplay clunkier. A step back from Twilight Princess in that regard that I don't understand why they did it. --- On the positive side though, I really thought the intro story section of the game was gorgeous, I loved the early relationships with Zelda and your bird, and some of the cutscenes/moments have been really nice. Probably my favourite opening to a Zelda game outside of Ocarina of Time. With Wind Waker I had this initial barrier to the game regarding the dramatic change in style, that it took me a while to accept the game. These 'nightmare scenes' feel all too similar to Twilight Princess though, and the scene with Zelda's pet 'cat' at night, was all too predicable/I knew what to expect.
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