Ronnie Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 The Wii U demo doesn't really have an art style though. It's technically amazing of course, but it looks just like Twilight Princess with HD visuals. No character. Zelda II with modern day visuals would look like the graphics in that article I reckon. Love the gothic style, it fit the Zelda franchise perfectly, in contrast to the cutesy colourful visuals we're used to these days (which are also great when done right WW/SS)
Grazza Posted April 7, 2012 Posted April 7, 2012 Twilight Princess always had a fantastic art style, but the hardware let it down in the end. I always try to make a distinction between TP and the 2004 trailer because I don't think we've ever seen it done as well as it could be.
Fierce_LiNk Posted April 7, 2012 Posted April 7, 2012 The art style looks a bit too much like a He-Man style cartoon. It seems quite out-dated and I don't think it would really fit in the with series today. The WiiU Zelda demo looked great at the time because it was about seeing what Zelda could look like with HD graphics. It would be nice to see what Nintendo could do with that technology and see how "gritty" they could make it. Will they do that? Not really sure.
Ronnie Posted April 7, 2012 Posted April 7, 2012 Twilight Princess always had a fantastic art style, but the hardware let it down in the end. I always try to make a distinction between TP and the 2004 trailer because I don't think we've ever seen it done as well as it could be. Hardware shoudn't be able to limit an art style, look at Wind Waker, that art style is timeless and all done with Twilight Princess just looked lifeless and muddy IMO. It was basically Ocarina of Time's art style, minus the vibrant colours, with better textures and more polygons.
Grazza Posted April 7, 2012 Posted April 7, 2012 But would you not agree, Ronnie, that Twilight Princess never looked as good as these images? They ended up adding so many odd lighting and shading techniques, the GameCube/Wii couldn't render the core models as well as the 2004 trailer. How satisfying it would be to finally play a game that lived up to it.
Ronnie Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 I can't say I personally notice a massive difference between those and the actual game but regardless I just don't think the above is anything special. It's just OOT with lower saturation and better textures. In terms of an art style, there's very little unique or interesting. Unlike say, Wind Waker or Skyward Sword. All IMO obviously. Maybe I'm being a little harsh, TP did have some lovely visuals every so often but it's the sort of art style that's forgotten quickly and won't age well. The Wii U tech demo was an identical art style, just with HD graphics and advanced lighting effects. It looked amazing because of the detail, but I would hope Nintendo go a bit more creative for the actual game and take a fresh perspective like with Wind Waker.
Jonnas Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 Gotta side with Ronnie. TP had a bunch of weird light effects (maybe it was intentional as part of the "Twilight" theme?) that made it worse than the original trailer, but the original trailer itself hasn't aged well to begin with. Sure, the HD demo looks really good, and it's in the same style, but it just goes to show that this grittier style ages as quickly as the technology behind it. The toon Zeldas don't age like that, which is why I prefer that artstyle. Skyward Sword's style seems to add this aspect to the style of TP to some extent, but only time will tell. As for the "He-Man pictures" (as someone called them), I'd say that was an art style more fitting of the 80s, as even cartoons of the time looked like that. Zelda has distanced itself so much from that (even the grittier TP), going back to that style would be a giant step backwards, I think.
Grazza Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 To be honest, I don't really believe in visual styles ageing well or badly. It's like Ocarina of Time on the N64 - people say it's aged badly, but I remember it looking blurry and juddery back in 1998. I agree with what you say about Wind Waker - it looked fantastic on release and always will - but there's no way Skyward Sword is in the same league as the limitations are clear already. Personally, I don't think Skyward Sword's visuals are anything like as good as the TP 2004 trailer, but that is just a matter of opinion. Twilight Princess itself won't age very well but, like I say, it didn't look very good on release (still better than SS though, as it wasn't a halfway measure). At the risk of labouring the point, the Wii U demo looks fantastic and will continue to do so. However, I agree in theory that something with even more artistic flair could be created. I always side with the more cartoony style if it's done well. Wrap something like the OOT 3D style in full cel-shading like Wind Waker and it'd probably be a winner.
Magnus Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 "I don't believe in visual styles aging well or badly." "The Wind Waker looked fantastic on release and always will." Makes sense. I remember back when the Quake III Arena engine was state of the art and I thought every game that used it looked fantastic. Going back to play games that used that engine ten years later always reminds me of how badly the graphics in realistic-looking games tend to age.
Burny Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 How satisfying it would be to finally play a game that lived up to it. Considering the trailer showed Link riding through empty planes and running through a couple of trees - not at all satisfying. The visuals just don't play into it. We've had boring and empty three times over now with three different styles. Wind Waker's Ocean, Twilight Princess' whole world and Skyward Sword's clouds. And you're being delusional, if you think Twilight Princess didn't live up to that trailer technically. Minus the parts that were obviously cut, Twilight Princess was exactly what that trailer showed. Especially Link's character model was the same. If you think otherwise, you need to look more closely. Thing is, at the Gamecube's and Wii's low resolution, it's technically impossible to show all the detail of the character models, unless the camera is that close. Which almost never happens outside of cutscenes.
Captain Falcon Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 I remember back when the Quake III Arena engine was state of the art and I thought every game that used it looked fantastic. Going back to play games that used that engine ten years later always reminds me of how badly the graphics in realistic-looking games tend to age. I saw your post and thought I'd go look at some screens from Jedi Knight II and Jedi Academy. Not quite as realistic as some of it's other games but far from cartoony and empty world syndrome aside, they don't look too bad to these eyes. Playing lots of Wii/DS games must have kept me grounded :p
Magnus Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 I saw your post and thought I'd go look at some screens from Jedi Knight II and Jedi Academy. Not quite as realistic as some of it's other games but far from cartoony and empty world syndrome aside, they don't look too bad to these eyes. Playing lots of Wii/DS games must have kept me grounded :p At least something good comes from owning a Wii! :p Though I think it's quite telling that you said they didn't look "too bad". I didn't mean to imply that they look terrible, but you have to remember that that was as good as graphics got at one point! (Plus it's also things you'd only see in motion, like characters' faces when they talk or stiff animations - things that generally tend to age better when they're cartoony and intentionally exaggerated.) Anyway, we're all going to play the next Zelda no matter what it looks like.
Captain Falcon Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 At least something good comes from owning a Wii! :p Though I think it's quite telling that you said they didn't look "too bad". I didn't mean to imply that they look terrible, but you have to remember that that was as good as graphics got at one point! (Plus it's also things you'd only see in motion, like characters' faces when they talk or stiff animations - things that generally tend to age better when they're cartoony and intentionally exaggerated.) Anyway, we're all going to play the next Zelda no matter what it looks like. "Not too bad" is a fairly good compliment from me... or perhaps rather, a not too bad compliment (see what I did there ) We are all going to play the next Zelda game, even if it's just to moan about the graphics, the environment, or the annoying helper character - though more likely all three.
Magnus Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 "My favorite game? F-Zero. I mean, I guess. It's not too bad. I've played worse games." That's what you sound like. :p There will definitely be plenty of things to complain about in the next Zelda game, no matter how good it is or what the graphics look like. I look forward to everyone talking about how much better Skyward Sword was.
Hero-of-Time Posted April 9, 2012 Author Posted April 9, 2012 Considering the trailer showed Link riding through empty planes and running through a couple of trees - not at all satisfying. The visuals just don't play into it. We've had boring and empty three times over now with three different styles. Wind Waker's Ocean, Twilight Princess' whole world and Skyward Sword's clouds. The thing is, while Wind Waker may have had a big empty ocean ( there were a few enemies kicking about ) the islands and towns were populated by interesting and charming characters. TP and SS had empty overworlds and very few interesting NPCs. I look forward to everyone talking about how much better Skyward Sword was. I can honestly say I won't be part of this crowd. SS was average at best, just like TP.
Ronnie Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 Wind Waker is easily my favourite Zelda game, but I think you're being a bit too kind to it when comparing its overworld to Skyward Sword's. It was amazing and full of character but quite barren compared to SS's. Windfall though was fantastic I'll admit, and far better than Skyloft.
Rummy Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 This is the style I wish Zelda would go back to for a game, gorgeous artwork: http://kotaku.com/5899323/ It basically illustrates what LOZ and Adventure of Link were like, ALTTP and LA a little less so. That's why I like the idea of the former two games taking place at the end of the timeline, when the world is just a little more dark and bleak after all the smiley happiness of SS or Minish Cap So teh awesomes, almost think it deserves a thread in retro! Probably lost in the depths here.
James McGeachie Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 For anyone who likes that style, I think Alundra on the ps1 is a great LTTP-style adventure that feels stylistically quite close to that. Not so much the art itself, but the overall sense of atmosphere from the visual and game design. To be honest anyone that likes Zelda in general should play Alundra though.
MoogleViper Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Just finished this game. I must say out of the Zeldas I've played (OoT, MM and TP), this is definitely the worst. I'm not going to say it wasn't a good game, because it was. But it was nowhere near the standards of other Zeldas. The world wasn't great (we all love exploring towns, and Skyloft was pretty pitiful to say it was the only one), and if you remove Groose then the characters were mediocre and lacking in any depth. I could go on but I'm sure it's already been said.
Jamba Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Cant believe you like TP more than this. I found it boring by comparison and at least in SS Link actually has a proper relationship with the other characters rather than being treated like the village idiot.
Fierce_LiNk Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 (edited) It's funny that people bitch about Twilight Princess for it's pacing issues and "flaws", but are willing to let it go in Wind Waker and Skyward Sword when they are arguably worse. Skyloft has a few interesting people but many of them are only interacted with during sidequests and not during the main story. Twilight Princess had Midna who is far more interesting than Fi is at any stage of Skyward Sword. Even the sub characters of TP had some degree of depth which I don't think we ever got from SS. What about the little group of Colin, Beth, Talo and Malo? That little story which takes you to Kakariko Village and the duel on the bridge is a highlight of the game. As for TP Link being treated as an idiot: I don't really get this at all. Clearly he starts off as a farm boy before maturing and becoming a hero. It's not too dissimilar to OoT's Link who starts off as a lazy little kid before eventually crossing time to become the hero. Edited April 15, 2012 by Fierce_LiNk
Jonnas Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 The flaws in TP were related with having nothing worthwhile to do outside the main quest, between the minuscule wallet, the chests that couldn't be emptied, the sidequests that gave you more rupees and the souls that could only be found at night (unlike in OoT and WW, you couldn't do anything about it). So, that leaves Heart Pieces and the Cave of Ordeals. The latter can only be fully unlocked after the City in the Sky. So yeah, Zelda games without anything to do besides the main quest are...Starfox Adventures, basically. Except SFA was prettier and had better music
Grazza Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Skyward Sword did some things better, whereas Twilight Princess excelled in other areas. Skyward Sword fixed an awful lot of the issues in TP, but got confused about what Zelda should be along the way. For atmosphere, having a better character of its own and generally sticking more closely to the Zelda formula, I'd give the edge to Twilight Princess.
Fierce_LiNk Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 The flaws in TP were related with having nothing worthwhile to do outside the main quest, between the minuscule wallet, the chests that couldn't be emptied, the sidequests that gave you more rupees and the souls that could only be found at night (unlike in OoT and WW, you couldn't do anything about it). I don't see much of an issue of that, considering that the main quest is very large and substantial. Ever since Majora's Mask, there has been this big urge for sidequests, which is nice. But, I'm not totally convinced that every Zelda since then needs to have a million things to do outside of the main quest. Skyward Sword does have a lot of things to do, but I would also argue that it's main focus, which is the main story is not as good or exciting as TP's. So, that leaves Heart Pieces and the Cave of Ordeals. The latter can only be fully unlocked after the City in the Sky. So yeah, Zelda games without anything to do besides the main quest are...Starfox Adventures, basically. Except SFA was prettier and had better music I know it's a joke, but meh. TP's music is under-rated. Hyrule Field's night music, Midna's Desperate Hour, Lake Hylia's music and quite a few others are much better than anything in Skyward Sword. Even Hyrule Field's day music tops SS's soundtrack. Skyward Sword did some things better, whereas Twilight Princess excelled in other areas. Skyward Sword fixed an awful lot of the issues in TP, but got confused about what Zelda should be along the way. For atmosphere, having a better character of its own and generally sticking more closely to the Zelda formula, I'd give the edge to Twilight Princess. Skyward Sword has an amazing control scheme and a great central town. It's nice doing jobs around Skyloft. The Sky itself is just as barren as Wind Waker's waterworld and I'm a bit disappointed in some of the ground areas. They look lovely, such as Floria, but you don't have a huge opportunity to do an awful lot there. They are houses for dungeons. That's what it felt like to me. The areas existed to house dungeons and not a whole lot else. I love the game and it's obviously a good game. I prefer it to Wind Waker but it doesn't hold the same place in my heart that TP did.
Fused King Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 I love the game and it's obviously a good game. I prefer it to Wind Waker but it doesn't hold the same place in my heart that TP did. Welp, that's it. Looks like another edition to my 'you're dead to me' list.
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