Grazza Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 I think you have to put all the scores into context. Phantom Hourglass, for instance came right after Twilight Princess, which was almost universally considered to be somewhat dull and generic. I'm sure reviewers were desperate to hail PH as a return to form, desperate to welcome the return of some of Zelda's charm, or the "Zelda magic" if you like, which I think it delivered quite well. The actual game? Pretty terrible by Zelda standards!! Then take the Wii itself. Almost universally criticised for not being HD, being a generation behind etc. But, crucially, Nintendo still knows how to make a highly polished game, and so when we get something like Mario Galaxy, Mario Galaxy 2 and (it seems) Skyward Sword, reviewers are keen (perhaps extra keen) to reward Nintendo for such quality.
Sheikah Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 Maybe one day they will be brave and make something like Majora's Mask. We'll see what this one is like anyway.
Shorty Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 Maybe one day they will be brave and make something like Majora's Mask. I'm glad that there is at least one thing that you and I can see eye-to-eye on It's unlikely that this game can touch on the magic of MM, but I can't say for sure. From the brief peek I took at last year's E3, it seemed good but I got no impression of the game as a whole, it just looked like a closed off tech-demo in your typical Zelda Forest Area . But after going 'dark' on spoilers, I've no idea what the rest of the game will be like in terms of story, tone, depth, atmosphere. Guess we'll only know in 4 weeks!
Ronnie Posted October 21, 2011 Posted October 21, 2011 I had a look at Edge's review of Twilight Princess online earlier, and all they went on about (understandably so) was how traditional and 'safe' it was, celebrating everything that made Zelda Zelda, without expressing itself as Wind Waker and Majora's Mask had done. Given they gave Skyward Sword 10/10 it stands to reason the game breaks out of the Zelda box quite a bit, which is great.
Rummy Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 As much as I do like MM, possibly placing it among the top games of the entire series, does nobody feel that it should lose points for essentially being OoT 2? I do think in part its charm was the fact it featured a lot of the characters/models etc, but whenever people mention it as the best(again, I agree it is one of the) I feel the need to point out that it just....wouldn't be without OoT?
ViPeR Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 As much as I do like MM, possibly placing it among the top games of the entire series, does nobody feel that it should lose points for essentially being OoT 2? I do think in part its charm was the fact it featured a lot of the characters/models etc, but whenever people mention it as the best(again, I agree it is one of the) I feel the need to point out that it just....wouldn't be without OoT? Interesting point, I'd say I partly agree. Though I never really thought of the recurring characters as "oh it was that guy from Kakariko". I think MM stands brilliantly on its own merit. It has a strange charm all of its own and if not for the introduction would be quite hard to link it to OOT. As far as Skyward Sword goes. I won't judge until i've played it. It has been such a long time since i've played a Zelda game which i've truly enjoyed and has had that 'feeling' of awesomeness. I'll get slammed for this but the last one for me was Wind Waker. Yes the difficulty sucked, some gameplay mechanics were awful (setting winds to sail in certain directions, ah!), and the story was pretty crap but it had a freaking personality. Something (for me) I felt Twilight Princess lacked.
Rummy Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Good point, it IS good enough to stand on its own merit and I'm not denying that, I just highly doubt it would ever had existed without OoT, given it's essentially on the same engine, recycled graphics models etc and thus inherently tied back to OoT? I'm looking more and more forward to SS, hopefully capturing that personality you mention of WW(and I think what makes all zelda games a zelda), though it's the items I'm looking forward to most. There's one item I know they've got it in from a previous game, and I'm looking forward to seeing it again.
Ville Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 As much as I do like MM, possibly placing it among the top games of the entire series, does nobody feel that it should lose points for essentially being OoT 2? I do think in part its charm was the fact it featured a lot of the characters/models etc, but whenever people mention it as the best(again, I agree it is one of the) I feel the need to point out that it just....wouldn't be without OoT? Audio Indeed. I think that makes the game's point of being a twisted alternative reality very effective. It's like all these familiar characters were dropped into a witch's cauldron full of magic yet rotten mushrooms, eerie tunes and general wtf. It's like Link in Wonderland, down the Bunny hole and through the Lens of Truth ;D Creepy, yet friggin' awesome.
killer kirby Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 I think you have to put all the scores into context. Phantom Hourglass, for instance came right after Twilight Princess, which was almost universally considered to be somewhat dull and generic. I'm sure reviewers were desperate to hail PH as a return to form, desperate to welcome the return of some of Zelda's charm, or the "Zelda magic" if you like, which I think it delivered quite well. The actual game? Pretty terrible by Zelda standards!! Really? If anything PH got praises for the use of being all played out on a touch screen while having graphics of a downgraded version of Wind Waker. Imagine back then playing a whole adventure using only a touch screen on the go. It's common now on apps and such, but back then it was amazing. Same reason as to why Nintendogs was such an amazing game when it first came out. But yeah, it's also the main reason why games after it don't receive a higher score, same as MM, ST and MM may be the better game of the one before it, but it just doesn't have the wow factor that the originals have.
Rummy Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Audio Indeed. I think that makes the game's point of being a twisted alternative reality very effective. It's like all these familiar characters were dropped into a witch's cauldron full of magic yet rotten mushrooms, eerie tunes and general wtf. It's like Link in Wonderland, down the Bunny hole and through the Lens of Truth ;D Creepy, yet friggin' awesome. YES! It was twisted, and certainly more dark, than OoT, and it had that eastern way of just neglecting to explain any of it. So brilliant! Funny you mention Link in Wonderland though, reminds me slightly of the unsaid weirdness of LA.
killer kirby Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) Such an awesome scene, and on a FREAKING GameBoy!!! Audio Same guy who did the story for that game also did MM one. Edited October 22, 2011 by killer kirby
ViPeR Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 I didn't know about the LA and MM connection (I feel a bit strange shortening the titles to two letters I hope people know what i'm on about) but I can definitely see it now. LA is my favourite out of all of them. It was really quite difficult and just plain odd, like you say without really explaining it. Animal villages? Weird Vampires called Richard (I believe) A Windfish!? Had a great dreamlike feeling to it.
Grazza Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 As much as I do like MM, possibly placing it among the top games of the entire series, does nobody feel that it should lose points for essentially being OoT 2? I do think in part its charm was the fact it featured a lot of the characters/models etc, but whenever people mention it as the best(again, I agree it is one of the) I feel the need to point out that it just....wouldn't be without OoT? I do agree. It's in my Top 3 along with Ocarina and Wind Waker, but if I had to "forget" about one, it'd be MM, purely for the reasons you mentioned. The actual gameplay is brilliant though, easily standing on its own, especially aspects such as the Moon descending in real-time (and being visible anywhere in the overworld), the time travel and the 3-day schedule the characters all kept to. Basically, Nintendo were quite right to make another Zelda game on the same engine (with the benefits of extra RAM too) and I hope they do that again. If Zelda Wii U is a great one, let's have Zelda Wii U 2 in the same style! Really? If anything PH got praises for the use of being all played out on a touch screen while having graphics of a downgraded version of Wind Waker. Imagine back then playing a whole adventure using only a touch screen on the go. It's common now on apps and such, but back then it was amazing. Same reason as to why Nintendogs was such an amazing game when it first came out. That too. I know a lot of people just wanted a "fresh" Zelda, and that's what Phantom Hourglass delivered. Now personally I don't think Twilight Princess was too familiar or formulaic at all. I've never understood that criticism. I didn't know about the LA and MM connection (I feel a bit strange shortening the titles to two letters I hope people know what i'm on about) but I can definitely see it now. LA is my favourite out of all of them. It was really quite difficult and just plain odd, like you say without really explaining it. Animal villages? Weird Vampires called Richard (I believe) A Windfish!? Had a great dreamlike feeling to it. That is exactly what I loved about it. I'd turn on my Game Boy and enter a different world. I also can't help but think this sort of subtlety is being lost with so many cut scenes explaining everything. Not necessarily in Zelda, but in most games.
killer kirby Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 That too. I know a lot of people just wanted a "fresh" Zelda, and that's what Phantom Hourglass delivered. Now personally I don't think Twilight Princess was too familiar or formulaic at all. I've never understood that criticism. I think all Zelda games have had that charm and had that feeling of always being different but still the same...if that makes sense, even though you can tell that TP was more aiming for the OOT, yet, it was like less then halfway through the game they decided to scarp the idea being too much like OOT and start being it's own thing. Which is prob why it's highly praised more for the last half rather than the second half. That is exactly what I loved about it. I'd turn on my Game Boy and enter a different world. I also can't help but think this sort of subtlety is being lost with so many cut scenes explaining everything. Not necessarily in Zelda, but in most games. Too me, (I am prob going to raise some eyebrows over this) But I think Nintendo have the best gaming storytellers out there. Just thinking about it, Nintendo have Intelligent system, Itoi and his Mother series, Yoshiaki Koizumi who wrote the story for LA, MM and now has a team working on 3D mario and now even Monolith who still have the skills of storytelling like they had since old Squaresoft. Prob missing out on even more. Even the Zelda games, especially the last 2 on the home system WW and TP, I still get shivers when you see how Link losses his greatest ally, who were with him from the very start of his adventure. I just think Nintendo have that certain skill to just slip in little deep stories without anyone noticing. While plenty of 3rd parties have to make sure they show you that they put all this time and effort into a story by shoving it down our throats.
Burny Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Now personally I don't think Twilight Princess was too familiar or formulaic at all. I've never understood that criticism.. I do think these criticism are justified and come from the way the game strings together its dungeons. Going to a dungeon, getting a new item, vanquishing a boss with it, going back to the overworld and accessing the next dungeon with some new items is standard fare for Zelda and as formulaic as game progression can get. Although all Zelda games follow that formula, Twilight Princess felt somewhat especially formulaic. In hindsight I feel that all there was to do in between dungeons, was finding the next story sequences that led to the next dungeon. "Interaction" with NPCs was mostly limited to the story sequences, with very little interesting side stories. The world itself didn't really come alive, as it was mostly barren, bar the occasional monster. It didn't help that the world was so large, as that only accentuated how empty it was. It didn't help either that dungeons where also quiet large, which only accentuates that there was little to do with any new items, after you emerged from an hour-long sequence of puzzles and bosses in the dungeon.
Hero-of-Time Posted October 22, 2011 Author Posted October 22, 2011 So, how's everyone doing in terms of avoiding spoilers? The last thing I seen of the game was at the Nintendo 3DS Conference, before that was it was the trailer at E3. I seen far too much when it came to Twilight Princess so like a few on here i've tried my best to avoid any media.
Rummy Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 I do think these criticism are justified and come from the way the game strings together its dungeons. Going to a dungeon, getting a new item, vanquishing a boss with it, going back to the overworld and accessing the next dungeon with some new items is standard fare for Zelda and as formulaic as game progression can get. Although all Zelda games follow that formula, Twilight Princess felt somewhat especially formulaic. In hindsight I feel that all there was to do in between dungeons, was finding the next story sequences that led to the next dungeon. "Interaction" with NPCs was mostly limited to the story sequences, with very little interesting side stories. The world itself didn't really come alive, as it was mostly barren, bar the occasional monster. It didn't help that the world was so large, as that only accentuated how empty it was. It didn't help either that dungeons where also quiet large, which only accentuates that there was little to do with any new items, after you emerged from an hour-long sequence of puzzles and bosses in the dungeon. All out of thanks, but I think I agree with most of your points. I've said it before, for a game that introduced some truly awesome items, it just did not make them...usable? enough. Maybe after I finish SS I might go back and play TP again, see how I judge it 5 years later. So, how's everyone doing in terms of avoiding spoilers? The last thing I seen of the game was at the Nintendo 3DS Conference, before that was it was the trailer at E3. I seen far too much when it came to Twilight Princess so like a few on here i've tried my best to avoid any media. Pretty good, except for knowledge of an item that's supposed to be in it, I'm doing pretty well! Keep nearly accidentally reading stuff but I'm getting over that bit of idiocy.
Cube Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 So, how's everyone doing in terms of avoiding spoilers? Some trailers from before E3, I've seen some people play the E3 demo, as well as trying it myself for a short amount of time.
Burny Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 So, how's everyone doing in terms of avoiding spoilers? Bad. Then again, I'm not trying to avoid them. Watched pretty much all trailers. The latest one however was a bit too spoiler-heavy, even for my tastes. I knew or suspected Link would eventually get that thing, but being shown some crucial parts of the scene itself does spoil a bit of the surprise element. Was worth it though.
Fused King Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 So, how's everyone doing in terms of avoiding spoilers? The last thing I seen of the game was at the Nintendo 3DS Conference, before that was it was the trailer at E3. I seen far too much when it came to Twilight Princess so like a few on here i've tried my best to avoid any media. I'd say that all I know about the game is the obvious (i.e. there will be a lake, a forest etc....) + a wee bit on the side (transporation method, musical insturment). The last thing I saw of the game was probably the trailer of this year's E3.
Ike Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Such an awesome scene, and on a FREAKING GameBoy!!! Audio Same guy who did the story for that game also did MM one. This is quite my possibly my favourite scene in a Zelda ever! So, how's everyone doing in terms of avoiding spoilers? The last thing I seen of the game was at the Nintendo 3DS Conference, before that was it was the trailer at E3. I seen far too much when it came to Twilight Princess so like a few on here i've tried my best to avoid any media. Pretty good been avoiding stuff since E3, haven't spoilt anything major but I have a seen 1 or 2 things I didn't want want to see due to Gonintendo not hiding spoilers properly. Totally boycotting them until it's out.
Ronnie Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 I find that if I watch a trailer half-arsed without really paying too much attention, it fulfils my inner Zelda geek, but I tend to forget most of what I saw a few weeks later. Best of both worlds
Diageo Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 I find that if I watch a trailer half-arsed without really paying too much attention, it fulfils my inner Zelda geek, but I tend to forget most of what I saw a few weeks later. Best of both worlds Exactly what I do.
Mike Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Pretty good been avoiding stuff since E3, haven't spoilt anything major but I have a seen 1 or 2 things I didn't want want to see due to Gonintendo not hiding spoilers properly. Same here - Gonintendo has posted way too many spoilers recently. I've only really seen place names (including temples), but I'd rather have not.
Ville Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Hmm, I do remember that I was pretty much in the dark before getting OoT and MM, and both turned out to be awesome. I think WW too. Maybe I should just do the same here and enhance the actual gaming experience by deliberately avoiding screens and videos. I mean, I'm getting the game anyway, so might as well preserve the mystery...
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