Paj! Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 How is this any different to Paj saying that you looked like a lesbian in the other thread? What is that saying exactly? That all lesbians are skinny with short hair? Are you going to have a go at him, as well? *stirs some more* I was saying he looked like a "lesbian stereotype" I suppose, but I never said that was a bad thing. I don't think that look is a bad thing, nor did I say that. Just reminded me of a lesbian woman. :p It's like someone said earlier, people can look "gay" in that they can "look like" a gay person - their exterior/appearance. Not a negative comment.
Dyson Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 Ultimately, there's nothing to be gained by labouring the point. Just don't act like that in future, for your own sake. Can I ask you to do the same? Are you asking for transgenders to be treated differently? No? You want everyone to be looked on equally with no problems. Sure, I get that. But by making a huge deal out of it you're actually making it worse in this situation because you make it seem like because they're so different, we shouldn't be allowed to make light of it, like someone with a disability. And I don't think you want everyone to think that transgenders are disabled.. So, lighten up. Even though there wasn't a sense of malice, intended or unintended in the post, making a huge fuss about it isn't going to help normalize the issue in the way you want. It's going to make people think that there is something taboo about transgenders.
Fierce_LiNk Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 I was saying he looked like a "lesbian stereotype" I suppose, but I never said that was a bad thing. I don't think that look is a bad thing, nor did I say that. Just reminded me of a lesbian woman. :p It's like someone said earlier, people can look "gay" in that they can "look like" a gay person - their exterior/appearance. Not a negative comment. I knew what you meant.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 The thing is, chair, I don't see this as an issue of a comment having transphobic undertones that were unnoticed, I see this as an issue of seeing transphobia where there is none. I'm still struggling to see what exactly was transphobic about it. I find drag queens awkward, too. But, see, this has nothing to do with lack of tolerance, simply lack of familiarity. And I'm more attracted to feminine women than masculine, meaning I wouldn't find a masculine woman overly attractive, either. What's left is the way in which Diageo pointed it out, and I honestly don't see the transphobia. There was dislike, but expressed through a joking statement of personal opinion on the case at hand, not a serious statement of opinion on the way things should be. Besides, it's statistically valid to assume women pursue feminine features. Basically, I understand why you consider it offensive, but I maintain that there was no expression of transphobia. It's like feminazis who consider gentlemanly behaviour an expression of male chauvisnism - it's overanalysis at its best.
chairdriver Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 Are you asking for transgenders to be treated differently? No? You want everyone to be looked on equally with no problems. (I don't want that, necessarily. But that's a totally different issue.)
Paj! Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 @Flink - Well no one likes a stirrer. :p Even though stirring is my favourite thing. The fact of the matter is...we're beautiful in our way cause god makes no mistakes. We're on the right track baby. *closes eyes and raises hand to the sky*
chairdriver Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 I find drag queens awkward, too. Which is a side-effect of living in the intensely transphobic western culture. If I admitted to feeling awkward around Indian people I'd literally get crucified.
Fierce_LiNk Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 @Flink - Well no one likes a stirrer. :p Even though stirring is my favourite thing. The fact of the matter is...we're beautiful in our way cause god makes no mistakes. We're on the right track baby. *closes eyes and raises hand to the sky* To be honest, I was just looking for an excuse to post that Mr Freeeeze video. My plan worked perfectly. Now I r depart to bed. Night, artichokes.
Ramar Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 @Flink - Well no one likes a stirrer. :p Even though stirring is my favourite thing. The fact of the matter is...we're beautiful in our way cause god makes no mistakes. We're on the right track baby. *closes eyes and raises hand to the sky* What if I don't believe in God? I'm ugly.
EEVILMURRAY Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 Can I ask you to do the same? Are you asking for transgenders to be treated differently? No? You want everyone to be looked on equally with no problems. Sure, I get that. But by making a huge deal out of it you're actually making it worse in this situation because you make it seem like because they're so different, we shouldn't be allowed to make light of it, like someone with a disability. And I don't think you want everyone to think that transgenders are disabled.. An episode of South Park conveyed that well with the conjoined foetus nurse lady. Everyone watch it.
Goafer Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 Which is a side-effect of living in the intensely transphobic western culture. If I admitted to feeling awkward around Indian people I'd literally get crucified. No it's not. Dannyboy himself said that he hasn't had any contact with Drag Queens and that it's because of his unfamiliarity with them. I'd personally feel a bit weird around Buddhists. Not because of societies Buddhaphobia, but because I'm not familiar with them. It's perfectly natural to feel uncomfortable around unfamiliar things. I'd also feel a bit weird around gay people/transgender people. Not because of societies relevant phobia, but because there are certain gay/trans/whatever people that go mental at the slightest thing and I'd be worried they would too. I'd find myself wanting to ask questions and generally get an understanding of the whole thing, but be too afraid to do so because of previous peoples tantrums. Do you see what I mean now? Being overly sensitive to these things is actually detrimental to the cause and actually prevents people from treating "them" equally.
Paj! Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 What if I don't believe in God? I'm ugly. It's fine. I don't believe in god either. We can be ugly together. Yet I wear an unnecesarry amount of religious imagery on my person. To protect myself from vampires.
chairdriver Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 No it's not. Dannyboy himself said that he hasn't had any contact with Drag Queens and that it's because of his unfamiliarity with them. I'd personally feel a bit weird around Buddhists. Not because of societies Buddhaphobia, but because I'm not familiar with them. It's perfectly natural to feel uncomfortable around unfamiliar things. I'd also feel a bit weird around gay people/transgender people. Not because of societies relevant phobia, but because there are certain gay/trans/whatever people that go mental at the slightest thing and I'd be worried they would too. I'd find myself wanting to ask questions and generally get an understanding of the whole thing, but be too afraid to do so because of previous peoples tantrums. Do you see what I mean now? Being overly sensitive to these things is actually detrimental to the cause and actually prevents people from treating "them" equally. I go mental at things because I'm massively socially fascist, and can't deal with people I disagree with. It comes from being raised by an army officer. Don't believe I'm your average gay man.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 (edited) Which is a side-effect of living in the intensely transphobic western culture. Sure, because you know all about me. No, it's a side-effect of me only ever having seen transgendered people when they make a fuss about themselves and stand out from the crowd. And don't get me wrong, I'd love for more people to stand out from the crowd and be themselves, but don't you see how a parade filled with people actively and purposefully being different will feel awkward to people who are not used to it? Heck, one of the problems with gay pride parades, as much as I admire them, is that they only help to further the idea that LGTBG people are different - if you catch the difference in meaning in my usage of the word "different". It widens the gap, makes them seem even more alien, and reduces chances of understanding and acceptance. Just look at how many people lump BDSM fetishist together with the LGTBG community! Before my time on N-E, I didn't know any gay people and thus only knew them by virtue of being different than me sexually and possibly personality-wise. Then I got to know you guys, of which a good deal is homosexual, but in every other aspect entirely like everybody else, and the awkwardness I felt about gay people disappeared entirely. Again: No. Phobia. At. All. Only awkwardness due to lack of familiarity. If I admitted to feeling awkward around Indian people I'd literally get crucified. Only by people who are too touchy about racism to consider what you're actually saying. Why is it a crime to be awkward about stuff? It. Does. Not. Denote. Lack. Of. Tolerance. Edited May 2, 2011 by Dannyboy-the-Dane
chairdriver Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 It's not a crime to be awkward about things. [Going back to the original point, embarrassment is different to awkwardness anyway.] It just highlights the fact there is an underlying subconcious thing going on, a thing engendered by our culture which means that you find it awkward to be around someone who doesn't play by the rules of their born sex. And surely it's worth changing our culture so that thing goes away? It's not about making people equal. [Yes -- everyone should have equal rights -- but to make everyone equal in a social sense would massively trivialise things.] It's about making people who are trans / want to be trans [/ whatever] feel comfortable being themselves. That doesn't happen when you get bombarded with things like "She doesn't look like a woman, so why would you have her as your wallpaper".
Diageo Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 It's not a crime to be awkward about things. [Going back to the original point, embarrassment is different to awkwardness anyway.] It just highlights the fact there is an underlying subconcious thing going on, a thing engendered by our culture which means that you find it awkward to be around someone who doesn't play by the rules of their born sex. And surely it's worth changing our culture so that thing goes away? It's not about making people equal. [Yes -- everyone should have equal rights -- but to make everyone equal in a social sense would massively trivialise things.] It's about making people who are trans / want to be trans [/ whatever] feel comfortable being themselves. That doesn't happen when you get bombarded with things like "She doesn't look like a woman, so why would you have her as your wallpaper". I already explained that's not what I meant.
Dyson Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 That doesn't happen when you get bombarded with things like "She doesn't look like a woman, so why would you have her as your wallpaper". Which isn't what he said.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 It's not a crime to be awkward about things. [Going back to the original point, embarrassment is different to awkwardness anyway.] It just highlights the fact there is an underlying subconcious thing going on, a thing engendered by our culture which means that you find it awkward to be around someone who doesn't play by the rules of their born sex. And surely it's worth changing our culture so that thing goes away? It's not about making people equal. [Yes -- everyone should have equal rights -- but to make everyone equal in a social sense would massively trivialise things.] It's about making people who are trans / want to be trans [/ whatever] feel comfortable being themselves. That doesn't happen when you get bombarded with things like "She doesn't look like a woman, so why would you have her as your wallpaper". That "rule" is a rule of biology/psychology/whatever: We're sceptical about that with which we are not familiar. But I digress. Anyway, boiling it down, it still seems to me like you're overanalysing Diageo's statement and putting meaning/importance into it that was never there to begin with.
Diageo Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 I'll explain it again then. It was very pink and girly and had a picture of what I assumed to be a man dressed in girl's clothing. I said it was embarrassing because in the normal confines of society, it is not normal for a man to have a wallpaper like that, and he would likely be ridiculed by it. Therefore making it embarrassing. The fact that Nicki Minaj looked like a man to me had nothing to do with it. I answered both questions at the time without elaborating which may have led you to believe I was implying the picture was embarrassing for the sole reason that no one would want a girl that looks like a man as their wallpaper. Which was not my intent.
Goafer Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 It's not a crime to be awkward about things. [Going back to the original point, embarrassment is different to awkwardness anyway.] It just highlights the fact there is an underlying subconcious thing going on, a thing engendered by our culture which means that you find it awkward to be around someone who doesn't play by the rules of their born sex. That thing is wariness of the unfamiliar. It's perfectly natural reaction to anything. It's how the species has survived. Rather than flying off the handle, the best thing to do is to educate people so that they're not unfamiliar anymore. Talk to them and let them know that there's nothing to worry about. Once they understand the whole thing, there won't be any awkwardness. There are a few people, who I hope are in the minority, who are just spiteful cretins, but just leave them to their own miserable existence. Unless they get into a position of power, then protest and get all riled up, but until then, just ignore them. They only get to you if you let them. Haters gonna hate and all that. I want everyone to be treated equally (in the sense that everyone gets on and whatever), but it's so hard when there's so much bullshit from both sides that just segregates more.
chairdriver Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 Anyway, boiling it down, it still seems to me like you're overanalysing Diageo's statement and putting meaning/importance into it that was never there to begin with. Well yeah, I'm basing it on a vibe I get, having read his posts for 6 months. I don't have specific quotes to hand [realistically not going to trawl through threads]. I do genuinely feel that its similar to how it was natural for our grandparents' generation to be racist. In 50 years time, the next generations will look back and think "I don't understand why they were all so transphobic...". It's a little unfair of me to personally go at Diageo so hard, but ultimately, I think this discourse has been useful. The more it's talked about, and the more it's in the mind, the better the situation becomes -- realistically, if you come away from this and think "ah, now I'm just going to be more discriminatory against trans people" you're just evil. :p
Diageo Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 Well yeah, I'm basing it on a vibe I get, having read his posts for 6 months. I don't have specific quotes to hand [realistically not going to trawl through threads]. I do genuinely feel that its similar to how it was natural for our grandparents' generation to be racist. In 50 years time, the next generations will look back and think "I don't understand why they were all so transphobic...". It's a little unfair of me to personally go at Diageo so hard, but ultimately, I think this discourse has been useful. The more it's talked about, and the more it's in the mind, the better the situation becomes -- realistically, if you come away from this and think "ah, now I'm just going to be more discriminatory against trans people" you're just evil. :p But like Goafer said, this might have taught people that is not OK to talk about trans people because they will have a fit about it and everyone will be uncomfortable.
Goafer Posted May 3, 2011 Posted May 3, 2011 Well yeah, I'm basing it on a vibe I get, having read his posts for 6 months. I don't have specific quotes to hand [realistically not going to trawl through threads]. I do genuinely feel that its similar to how it was natural for our grandparents' generation to be racist. In 50 years time, the next generations will look back and think "I don't understand why they were all so transphobic...". It's a little unfair of me to personally go at Diageo so hard, but ultimately, I think this discourse has been useful. The more it's talked about, and the more it's in the mind, the better the situation becomes -- realistically, if you come away from this and think "ah, now I'm just going to be more discriminatory against trans people" you're just evil. :p And hopefully you've come away from this realising that melodrama only widens the gap. I genuinely believe that it helps no one and makes my Toleranceopia* harder to achieve. *a wonderful land, where everyone gets on and travels in tubes. People eat shitloads of cake and get fat, but no one cares because in Toleranceopia, everyone is beautiful, whether you're fat, thin, gay, transgender, have a permanent erection, 3 heads whatever. It's also copyrighted so fuck off.
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