Serebii Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 ...Because these particular proteins are uniquely unstable and can be removed from nerve cells, the scientists proposed that they might permanently remove fear by combining behavior therapy and protein removal and provide a window of opportunity for treatment. “The idea was to remove these proteins and weaken the connections in the brain created by the trauma, thereby erasing the memory itself,†says Huganir. ... http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-erase-memory.html This is such a bad thing. If the military gets this, they have brainless soldiers who do stuff without considering. Before too long, we'll just be mindless shells. Even if they don't remove fear completely, removing a memory is a terrible thing as memories are what make us human. Without our past experiences, we'd not be who we are. Delete those experiences and we too shall be deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReZourceman Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 I would like to have my fear of beetroot removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 On a plus point, The Dark Side is fucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganepark32 Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 Interesting. Although I'm struggling to see how it's erasing memories given the technique they've used. It said that those who had the normal protein didn't recover the fear memories but those who lacked the modified one did. I'm thinking it's more about the blocking of access to those fear inducing memories; an incomplete pathway that inhibits, for the time being, the ability for fear to be induced as a result of the loud tone. I'll have to see if I can get a hold of the full paper for reading but I'm also dubious about it being a long term study, which could possibly implicate the theory that any inhibition of fear memories is temporary. Certainly, it'd be interesting if we could erase memories as PTSD affects a lot of people worldwide and it's a very serious disorder that can 'cripple' a person with constant flashbacks of traumatic events and being able to erase those memories would be significantly helpful to many people. I just don't think it's possible given current theories about memory to erase them as we barely know what memory is (it's such an ambiguous term to start with), we don't know how it is stored (is it chemical or electrical? It's definitely some form of energy) and we don't know how it works properly. At the moment, we can block memories (sodium/potassium blocks within the brain), but not selectively. It'll be a long time before that. And I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the military was already working on this kind of thing. The military concerns itself with much more than war, and has huge R&D projects in various fields so this would undoubtedly be one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Mcoy Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 Fear is useful. Mcoy would probably die if he wasn't afraid of stepping out Into the middle of the road or yelling back against a bunch of mouthy yobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heroicjanitor Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 This is such a bad thing. If the military gets this, they have brainless soldiers who do stuff without considering. Before too long, we'll just be mindless shells. I don't think removing fear would be so bad, but once they get this they'll move onto other things. They'll start removing empathy and what's the point of life if you just live to fight in wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tellyn Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 The problem is deciding where to draw the line with what is acceptable in such a treatment, as has been mentioned with the war/soldier thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diageo Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 Clearly removing empathy or all fear is not ethical, and would never pass ethic committees standards. For the army to do something like this would be highly unlikely. Unless you're a conspiracy theory kind of guy. I haven't read the article, removing a memory that induces PTSD can only be a good thing. PTSD is a terrible disorder and if you had it, you wouldn't be worrying about robot soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heroicjanitor Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 Clearly removing empathy or all fear is not ethical, and would never pass ethic committees standards. For the army to do something like this would be highly unlikely. Unless you're a conspiracy theory kind of guy. I wouldn't put it past them. Dick Cheney openly admitted to torturing and for some reason isn't being tried for war crimes. You can get away with anything these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serebii Posted November 1, 2010 Author Share Posted November 1, 2010 Ethics are all well and good, but ethics get thrown out of the window in times of crisis and that's where this sort of thing would come in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 I would love my arachnophobia removed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diageo Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 You think they would be able to remove empathy, memories and everything that is human, from a large amount of people, large enough to make an army, and people would just accept it because, these things happen, or there is a small crisis? The point of that very large sentence is that I think you people are overreacting. This is being used to benefit lives. Should we not advance in science because of the dangers it brings of people abuse it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayseven Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 I think the "I haven't read the full article" bit should be rectified. It isn't saying that fear as a mechanism is totally destroyed, rather that the study is claiming it can remove a specific fear by altering how the brain reacts to the stimuli. I'm no neurophysisist/psycologist/whatever, but it isn't clear as to how this changes the actual memory. It suggests that the memory is still there just stripped of its traumatic identity, which would mean that personalities wouldn't be totally fucked up - they'd essentially be reverted to how they were before the trauma... Obv. a lot more research will be needed. Fuck ethics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganepark32 Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 I think the "I haven't read the full article" bit should be rectified. It isn't saying that fear as a mechanism is totally destroyed, rather that the study is claiming it can remove a specific fear by altering how the brain reacts to the stimuli. I'm no neurophysisist/psycologist/whatever, but it isn't clear as to how this changes the actual memory. It suggests that the memory is still there just stripped of its traumatic identity, which would mean that personalities wouldn't be totally fucked up - they'd essentially be reverted to how they were before the trauma... Obv. a lot more research will be needed. Fuck ethics. Yeah, I'll have to wait until I get into Uni where I can get access to the full paper (as Science Express is one of the many subscriptions my Uni has for research papers) but from what I've been able to read, it's not explicitly saying that it erases memories. Rather, it's saying theres a degradation of the fear inducing memory and its connections in the amygdala (the incomplete pathway/block I mentioned in my previous post as an explanation). But yeh, it's very early research, particularly looking at specific proteins and such in the brain which can help alter memories, so more indepth and long term research needs to be looked at. We're still 'years' from being able to erase memories, if it's truly possible at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 (edited) I don't think you should mess with a person like this. All these little intricacies make us who we are, and losing even one of them could fundamentally adjust that. In extreme cases, maybe this could work... but in general it isn't something to be dabbled in. Certainly isn't something I'd consider. All memories are somewhat precious and fears should be conquered or managed, not removed. Edited November 2, 2010 by Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Dare Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 This is such a bad thing. If the military gets this, they have brainless soldiers who do stuff without considering. Before too long, we'll just be mindless shells. Even if they don't remove fear completely, removing a memory is a terrible thing as memories are what make us human. Without our past experiences, we'd not be who we are. Delete those experiences and we too shall be deleted I don't think removing fear would be so bad, but once they get this they'll move onto other things. They'll start removing empathy and what's the point of life if you just live to fight in wars. On that note: The Jews are coming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diageo Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 I don't think you should mess with a person like this. All these little intricacies make us who we are, and losing even one of them could fundamentally adjust that. In extreme cases, maybe this could work... but in general it isn't something to be dabbled in. Certainly isn't something I'd consider. All memories are somewhat precious and fears should be conquered or managed, not removed. Would you want to live with PTSD then, would you rather get tortured by flashbacks, get panic attacks, uncontrollable rage, enormous guilt you survived and your comrades didn't, because that's who you are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Would you want to live with PTSD then, would you rather get tortured by flashbacks, get panic attacks, uncontrollable rage, enormous guilt you survived and your comrades didn't, because that's who you are? There are other ways to deal with that stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diageo Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 There is extensive therapy treatments that take a very long time and don't always work, meanwhile you are suffering at the mercy of your memories. If you're going to get rid of it through other means, then you are still getting rid of it, and it's not a part of what makes you, you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heroicjanitor Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Removing ptsd is good. What if you could remove some sort of murder gland from a killer? Should it be done or is it who he is, so put him in prison/mental hospital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diageo Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 PTSD can cause murderous actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 I think using this as treatment for PTSD is a wonderful idea. The problem arises if people start erasing fear and/or memories (whatever is actually possible) at their leisure. Memories and feelings are what constitues who one is as a human being. If we start to purposefully meddle with these things, we risk becoming "perfect" individuals, a thought which has always frightened me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Dare Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 I...really don't think any of you know what you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 I...really don't think any of you know what you're talking about. Of course not. None of us are qualified to fully understand the science and implications this could have. But why should it prevent us from having a debate about it? We may be totally off from actual reality, but the debate is still valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mundi Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 I...really don't think any of you know what you're talking about. I think I have seen enough Vietnam war movies to call myself an expert on PTSD. My conclusion: This shit be whack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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