How do you solve a problem like North Korea?

[The fish]

See: Society.

 

Personally, the only thing I find truly rammed home is, ironically, the idea of the virtuous nature of our society allowing freedom of thought and expression more than pretty much all others.

[Nicktendo]

Oh, and what is morally good is ultimately dependant of the individual making the judgement. I dare say (mainly because I know people like this) that there are people out there who think Saudi Arabia is morally perfect, and yet it still has things it wants to hide.

 

I'm glad you mentioned Saudi Arabia. One of the most oppressive and non-democratic countries in the world, just 6 places above North Korea - yet it's one of the United States closet allys?

 

How does that work, I thought the US promoted freedom for all world citizens..?

 

Personally, the only thing I find truly rammed home is, ironically, the idea of the virtuous nature of our society allowing freedom of thought and expression more than pretty much all others.

 

And there in lies the beauty. We're allowed all this freedom, we even get put a cross in a box every 4 years. Although, in reality it's only a choice between blue and red, with maybe a hit of yellow. There isn't even a tint of yellow in America, it's great - There's right wing or even more right wing. If I go there an start a conversation by saying, "Hi, I'm a communist, would you like to discuss politics?" I wonder how many people will tell me where to go. But I'm free to think what I want, and so are they. I wonder if I could get on TV to air my viewpoint.

 

Despite graduating I even thought about joining these student protests but then I thought, what's the point, if they don't listen to 1 million+ saying don't invade Iraq, why would 200,000 make them change their minds on tuition fees?

 

The right to protest is great in theory, kind of like something else we discussed in this thread.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Nicktendo
Automerged Doublepost

[The fish]

I'm glad you mentioned Saudi Arabia. One of the most oppressive and non-democratic countries in the world, just 6 places above North Korea - yet it's one of the United States closet allys?

 

How does that work, I thought the US promoted freedom for all world citizens..?

 

I maintain that one of the most disgusting thing about the US is its close alliance with Saudi Arabia. You have to remember, though, that what is ideal and what is practical are generally not the same thing. The US is allied with the Saudi's for diplomatic and military reasons, namely a common(ish) enemy and the obvious desire on the US's part to keep the world's biggest oil producer chummy. It's horrific that the US is propping up such an awful state, but it's unrealistic to expect them to stick firmly to their proclaimed ideals, especially with the global economy being oil-fuelled and the US being the biggest economy and user.

 

And there in lies the beauty. We're allowed all this freedom, we even get put a cross in a box every 4 years. Although, in reality it's only a choice between blue and red, with maybe a hit of yellow. There isn't even a tint of yellow in America, it's great - There's right wing or even more right wing. If I go there an start a conversation by saying, "Hi, I'm a communist, would you like to discuss politics?" I wonder how many people will tell me where to go. But I'm free to think what I want, and so are they. I wonder if I could get on TV to air my viewpoint.

 

This is due entirely to the Cold War - before the Russian Revolution, discussion was encouraged, though there still problems with revolutionaries of communist, fascist and (as William Howard Taft found) anarchist stripe.

 

Despite graduating I even thought about joining these student protests but then I thought, what's the point, if they don't listen to 1 million+ saying don't invade Iraq, why would 200,000 make them change their minds on tuition fees?

 

The important bit is not necessarily that something is changed, but that the record shows that people showed opposition. The government were unquestionably dicks for going into Iraq, especially when that many people said not to (including myself).

 

I, for the record, planned to join the initial student fee protests, but I forgot to set my alarm clock. Whoops...

Edited November 24, 2010 by The fish
Automerged Doublepost

[Emasher]

I fail to see how a government wanting to keep military documents that could compromise its soldiers a secret means they have something to hide that has anything to do with morals. I'm sure some of it did, but what they're really concerned about is the Taliban, etc. finding out exactly what they're doing.

 

You're also not really considering the context of the civilian casualties. You're acting like the US is (and we're talking about today here) trying to kill civilians. The civilian casualties are accidents. Civilian casualties happen in every war, its just how war works. The enemies however ARE trying to kill civilians. The number of americans who died during the 9/11 attacks might be less than those who have been killed as a result of Operation Enduring Freedom, however, how high would the death toll be if we didn't go after terrorists? If terrorist organizations could do whatever they wanted without anyone trying to stop them, there would be a much higher rate of terrorist attacks on the west. Now, the obvious solution would be to cut all aid to Israel, but that's a debate for another thread.

 

Iraq is a completely different story, now I personally wouldn't have invaded Iraq, I probably would have sent troops to Darfur instead, but people are forgetting quite easily what it was like back before the war. Iraq did have weapons of mass destruction back in the 90s and all the evidence available at the time (from intelligence agencies in various countries) made it seem extremely likely that they had built more of them. Now, that turned out to not be quite true, but they did still have a stockpile of functional chemical weapons that they managed to hide from UN inspectors over the years, ironically, it was Wikileaks that released that information. So was the war a terrible mistake, probably. Does it make the US more evil than North Korea, I really don't think it comes anywhere near it.

 

Freedom doesn't just mean putting a piece of paper in a box every few years either. Go to any communist country, or any theocracy and you'll understand what I'm talking about. If you publicly say something bad about the government, you will be imprisoned. If you contradict the state religion (in theocracies), you will be killed. If you want news you'll have to make due with the exact news that the government wants you to hear, In China, they even have courses journalists have to take to learn about how to represent the government's opinion in their reporting. If you want to go on a website that has the slightest bit of material that the government disagrees with, you'll be out of luck. If you get caught masturbating, or having sex with the wrong person in the wrong circumstances (keep in mind that we're talking exclusively about consenting adults here) you'll be imprisoned or stoned to death. In China, if you want more than one kid you're out of luck. Many books and films are banned. Some countries don't allow you to assemble. In many countries you will not get a fair trial if you are charged with an offence. There are countries that don't allow girls to attend school. There are countries that force their citizens to dress in a certain way. The list goes on and on. Consider how many choices you actually do have in your day to day life.

[jayseven]

Freedom is the opportunity to choose how you waste your life. Just wanted to throw that quote out there and see if anyone gets it. The current 'debate' is ZZZZZ to me.

[chairdriver]

Freedom doesn't just mean putting a piece of paper in a box every few years either. Go to any communist country, or any theocracy and you'll understand what I'm talking about. If you publicly say something bad about the government, you will be imprisoned. If you contradict the state religion (in theocracies), you will be killed. If you want news you'll have to make due with the exact news that the government wants you to hear, In China, they even have courses journalists have to take to learn about how to represent the government's opinion in their reporting. If you want to go on a website that has the slightest bit of material that the government disagrees with, you'll be out of luck. If you get caught masturbating, or having sex with the wrong person in the wrong circumstances (keep in mind that we're talking exclusively about consenting adults here) you'll be imprisoned or stoned to death. In China, if you want more than one kid you're out of luck. Many books and films are banned. Some countries don't allow you to assemble. In many countries you will not get a fair trial if you are charged with an offence. There are countries that don't allow girls to attend school. There are countries that force their citizens to dress in a certain way. The list goes on and on. Consider how many choices you actually do have in your day to day life.

 

None of the things listed are inherent traits of communism nor of a theocracy though. You're describing totalitarianism. Your American is showing.

 

It's important to realise that communism doesn't necessarily imply totalitarianism. If you don't you get the "socialism is evil" mentality that's rife in America. You only have to look so far as Sweden or Norway, most successful countries in Europe to see socialism isn't evil.

[Emasher]

I think you misunderstood my post. I didn't say they were inherent traits of communism, however many of those have been present in nearly every communist and theocratic country that has ever existed, so it would be a good place to start looking. There are also secular non-communist countries that would be good examples as well.

 

Also, socialism isn't communism, nor is it 'evil'. I do disagree with both however (actually, I disagree with socialism more than I do with free communism), but that's not really that important.

[ipaul]

None of the things listed are inherent traits of communism nor of a theocracy though. You're describing totalitarianism. Your American is showing.

 

It's important to realise that communism doesn't necessarily imply totalitarianism. If you don't you get the "socialism is evil" mentality that's rife in America. You only have to look so far as Sweden or Norway, most successful countries in Europe to see socialism isn't evil.

 

It doesn't necessarily, but why does it always seem to when put into practice? The American obsession with how socialism is 'evil' infuriates me as well, but they do have reasonable grounds to assume a communist society might not be so rosy for all concerned. I mean, one only has to glance at the northern half of the Korean peninsula....

 

Also, are Sweden and Norway really socialist (and not just in a relativistic sense)?

 

I might just say I'm rather happy I started this thread.

[The fish]

Also, are Sweden and Norway really socialist (and not just in a relativistic sense)?

 

Oddly, Marx designed socialism's ugly cousin, communism, with Britain, a highly industrialised, wealth country at the time, in mind. Proportionately to their population, Sweden and Norway are fabulously wealthy, so they can afford the loss of competition caused by state ownership of businesses. Their wealth boost, compared to others, comes from their disproportionally high manufacturing and oil, respectively.

 

The Nordic Model only works in a highly developed country with a relatively small population. Britain, by contrast, has too low an income compared to our population for this to work, especially now more jobs are state-owned than public. The solution is relatively simple: slice taxes on companies. There's no point having, for a completely invented but illustrative example, a 40% tax on shipbuilding when there's almost no shipbuilding. Slice it to 5%, and companies will move back into Glasgow and Belfast and whilst the government gets less of a slice, you're slicing out of a bigger cake. On top of that, you get the income tax from the new jobs, and the knock-on effect of the increase in spending by the newly paid workers.

 

If the world were sensible enough to give me absolute power, I'd also cut all income tax on public sector workers, but give them a pay cut. You'd do it so they ended up with more money in their pocket, but you've cut the cost of all the needless bureaucracy of taxing them on their tax-funded wages.

 

Oh, and legalise, regulate and tax marijuana. The profits would be massive, and that's before even adding increased tourism (drug tourism brings 4 billion Euros into the Dutch economy each year) and the crazy savings on police, court costs and punishment. Oh, and what is thought of as being the biggest single earner for gangs would dry up - based on behaviour towards alcohol and tobacco, people would much rather buy from a licensed shop than some dodgy guy in the street. The reduction in gang funding will reduce the resources the police need to put onto them, and, best of all, may just save a kid from being shot in the stomach outside school as revenge for breaking up a fight several months beforehand.

 

I'd also make it a capital offence to read The Daily Mail, but that's just a personal thing... :wink:

Edited November 26, 2010 by The fish

[ipaul]

Oddly, Marx design socialism's ugly cousin, communism, with Britain, a highly industrialised, wealth country at the time, in mind. Proportionately to their population, Sweden and Norway are fabulously wealthy, so they can afford the loss of competition caused by state ownership of businesses. Their wealth boost, compared to others, comes from their disproportionally high manufacturing and oil, respectively.

 

The Nordic Model only works in a highly developed country with a relatively small population. Britain, by contrast, has too low an income compared to our population for this to work, especially now more jobs are state-owned than public. The solution is relatively simple: slice taxes on companies. There's no point having, for a completely invented by illustrative example, a 40% tax on shipbuilding when there's almost no shipbuilding. Slice it to 5%, and companies will move back into Glasgow and Belfast and whilst the government gets less of a slice, you're slicing out of a bigger cake. On top of that, you get the income tax from the new jobs, and the knock-on effect of the increase in spending by the newly paid workers.

 

If the world were sensible enough to give me absolute power, I'd also cut all income tax on public sector workers, but give them a pay cut. You'd do it so they ended up with more money in their pocket, but you've cut the cost of all the needless bureaucracy of taxing them on their tax-funded wages.

 

Can't really think of anything remotely interesting to reply to this so I will just say, I always like reading your posts : peace:

[The fish]

Can't really think of anything remotely interesting to reply to this so I will just say, I always like reading your posts : peace:

 

Cheers, I'm glad someone's just reading them, let alone liking them! : peace:

[Iun]

None of the things listed are inherent traits of communism nor of a theocracy though. You're describing totalitarianism. Your American is showing.

 

It's important to realise that communism doesn't necessarily imply totalitarianism. If you don't you get the "socialism is evil" mentality that's rife in America. You only have to look so far as Sweden or Norway, most successful countries in Europe to see socialism isn't evil.

 

 

Socialism isn't evil, of course. Socialism is simply an idea. The problem is when this idea is filtered through the mind of a person that it takes on other characteristics.

 

I am reminded at this point by a favourite quote of mine from "1984" and Emmanuel Goldstein in "The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism" :

 

"One does not install a dictatorship to protect a revolution, one has a revolution to install a dictatorship"

 

 

Communism and Socialism are nice theories, but that's all they are. The practice of them often bears little resemblance to their prescriptive aims.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Cheers, I'm glad someone's just reading them, let alone liking them! : peace:

 

I liked your post very much as well.

[Jonnas]

Cheers, I'm glad someone's just reading them, let alone liking them! : peace:

 

Your viewpoint is by far the most rational and level-headed around here. I do enjoy reading your opinions about everything.

 

Also, in the midst of discussing political doctrines, you managed to make a beautifully concise pro-marijuana argument. That's awesome.

[Nicktendo]

To revive this thread (again)...

 

I caught up with my Uncle last week. He comes back to the UK every Xmas as he is a professor of Japanese Social History at ADFA University in Canberra, Australia and they're currently in the middle of their summer break. On his way here, he stopped for 2 weeks in North Korea.

 

Amazingly after expressing an interest to return to the country to the North Korean embassy in Australia, he'd managed to secure a role teaching at an all boys school in Pyongyang for 2 weeks. They said they were desperate for English teachers and he snapped up at the chance!

 

The pictures are truly amazing, the classrooms are not to dissimilar from our own, with all kinds of colours and pictures lining the walls. He showed them how to play cricket, and they played on the banks of the river in centre Pyonyang on their dinner break - quite possibly the first time ever the country has even seen or heard of cricket. He said they boys were constantly asking questions and he had never in all his life seen such a passion for learning.

 

What was most striking though, was how horribly wrong the West's misconceptions of North Korea are. The country is no where near as poor as we are lead to believe, he remarked that all the information we have about North Korea seems to be 10 years out of date (a time which he admitted the country was bitterly struggling). He told me that even in the short time since he was last there, there are more cars in the city, everyone has a mobile phone and the city itself is vibrant, busy and clean (the cleanest in the world, he said) - the streets are lined with continental (mainly Italian) style bistros and cafes and the population of Pyongyang seems prosperous and happy.

 

Admittedly he didn't venture far out of Pyongyang, but he was free to go wherever he chose, he was not ordered around and chaperoned by guards, he had a female translator with him at all times, but outside of that he had no restrictions. He also said the 'worship' of Kim Il-Jong is at nowhere near the levels it's represented across the globe, people respect him and what he has done for them, but the God-like status is a huge exaggeration.

 

There are 3 TV stations which operate between 11am and about 11pm - showing a whole manner of programmes but mostly Sport and Cartoons, which of course the kids love.

 

I must say, even I, a staunch supporter of North Korea's right to exist was shocked at just how wrong my pre-conceptions of the country were. Of course none of you are inclined to take my word for it, but what was just as surprising was the fact that my Uncle sent a huge letter to the Guardian outlining everything he had discovered in North Korea, a long with pictures to try and create a little more balance in the Westernised view of the place - they didn't reply and/or simply weren't interested, which is a shame.

 

Perhaps the most stunning thing of all though (well for me it was anyway) was the fact that almost every boy at the school was literally obsessed with "Messi" and "Ronaldo" and spent nearly all their free time playing FIFA. My Uncle didn't know what console it was on...

 

But I'm willing to bet not many people thought North Korea, was quite like THAT, eh?

[The fish]

They said they were desperate for English teachers and he snapped up at the chance!

 

I'm a qualified English teacher in need of a job, where do I sign up? =P

[Nicktendo]

Have you tried the North Korean embassy in London?? :p

[The fish]

Have you tried the North Korean embassy in London?? :p

 

Sounds like a plan. My one biggy is restricted internet access. I know I could probably cope without Facebook for 6 months, but the relationship between Google Images and making lesson materials is strong indeed.

[Nicktendo]

Sounds like a plan. My one biggy is restricted internet access. I know I could probably cope without Facebook for 6 months, but the relationship between Google Images and making lesson materials is strong indeed.

 

All you need is a chalkboard and a big imagination! :p

 

I'm wondering if the fact that my Uncle's wife is in the Chinese government has anything to do with it, or the fact that he's been a senior lecturer for 20 years, and that book he wrote... Korea since 1850 - it's on Amazon! I'm sure it would be worth a try though! I know I'd love to do it.

 

I will try and get some pictures scanned and uploaded but it's unlikely.

[The fish]

All you need is a chalkboard and a big imagination! :p

 

I'm wondering if the fact that my Uncle's wife is in the Chinese government has anything to do with it, or the fact that he's been a senior lecturer for 20 years, and that book he wrote... Korea since 1850 - it's on Amazon! I'm sure it would be worth a try though! I know I'd love to do it.

 

I will try and get some pictures scanned and uploaded but it's unlikely.

 

That, I dare say, is a big factor. I've noticed the DPRK embassy in London doesn't even have an email address, let alone a website. I guess I'm going to have to pick up the phone...

[Nicktendo]

Major Bump:

 

I met up with my Uncle yesterday who has just got back from spending another 2 weeks in North Korea teaching English to 13-14 year old boys in a school in Central Pyongyang. The trip was extremely successful, to the point where he will now be going back every May and November for 3 weeks a time to teach English at various schools in the countries capital, with a plan to do it in the other major cities in 2-3 years’ time.

 

He shared a few stories and anecdotes with me about his time in Korea, introducing the boys to the games of Cricket and Frisbee, after taking a bat and frisbee with him. Of course they were fascinated and thoroughly enjoyed the new experiences. He managed to take a copy of the Encyclopaedia Britannica CD with him so they could learn more about the Western World and its history, in a more in-depth way from what they had been taught at school, with the idea of helping their English reading skills.

 

He told me that the school he was at this time was a very good school which required the boys to pass exams for entry. The students were bright, and had a real thirst for knowledge, always asking questions. The majority, he said, would go on to study science, medicine or computer technology at graduate level, which is why the English training was so important at this early stage, and all of them had a firm grasp of English and could express themselves very well when they had "English only" Lessons. They are still obsessed with FIFA and Lionel Messi. (Obviously they still haven't experienced PES then... )

 

He did say this time that he noticed how much of a sharp wit the boys had this time and one day he set them the assignment of telling a joke in class, first in Korean to everyone and then in English, so that if it didn't translate well, others could help out. Here are a couple of the jokes they told:

 

A soldier is in a battle at the border with the South Koreans and suddenly turns around and starts running away from the battle. He runs as fast as his legs will carry him. By the time he reaches his home village, an officer is already at his house waiting for him. "What are you doing?! Leaving in the heat of the battle, are you crazy?! Explain yourself private!" - "Well sir, the earth is shaped like a Tomato. I am simply taking the long route and attacking from the other side."

 

A Schoolboy turns up for an exam without a pencil. Appalled at this the teacher stands him up in front of the class: “Boy!” He says “Boy, where is your pencil? Why don’t you have it? This is ludicrous!” The boy stands in silence, looking slightly ashamed. “Well boy, answer me!” Still no response. “Boy, your pencil is the most vital instrument, just like a gun to a soldier! What kind of soldier would turn up without his gun?!” Suddenly a wry smirk crosses the boy’s face. “Well sir,” the boy remarks, “What about a general?”

 

The boys didn’t laugh at the second joke, and when my uncle asked why, the said it was because they’ve heard it so many times before! And when he repeated it to the teachers, they too had heard it before. My Uncle’s conclusion from the “tell a joke” lesson was that many of these jokes, like the one above in particular mocked the military and authority figures, and this was done comfortably and openly in a public setting in front of a Westerner, 2 blocks away from Kim Il Sung Square and the Parliament Building. Now I don’t know what you would constitute to be a ‘Police State,’ but to me at least, I don’t know how that label can be applied in this instance. The lack of fear of punishment or execution, suggests it is not something which is ready to happen to people on a whim like we are lead to believe.

 

So as you can see, an experience one perhaps wouldn’t expect to gain from North Korea. My uncle wrote to the Guardian about his experiences last time he went and they didn’t reply, so obviously weren’t interested. He will be giving a guest lecture at both Princeton and Yale on his time in North Korea in the near future, let’s see if he makes it through customs first though!

 

One final point, my Uncle invited some of the teachers to come to Canberra, Australia (Which is where he teaches) in exchange for his time in Korea; however the Australian government currently has a policy that all North Korean citizens are banned from entry while the country is conducting Nuclear Weapons experiments. He wrote to the Governor of his state (the ACT) asking for exemption, explaining the situation. Again he received no response. I find it Ironic that the Australian government would be the ones suspecting North Korean citizens would be intelligence gathering and ban them from entry as opposed to the other way round. Kind of makes you realise that these situations are never black and white, and most of what were led to believe always has a hidden agenda.

 

I hope you enjoyed reading, I will update everyone again in December if he has any more stories. If someone wants to start a thread, “How do you solve a problem like Iran?” He stated to me yesterday, he has an Iranian contact and wants to make plans to visit the country in the future

Edited July 2, 2011 by Nicktendo

[The fish]

That was really interesting, thanks for posting it! I'm glad he enjoyed it, I fear I'd find the isolation from the outside world a little too much.

 

He stated to me yesterday, he has an Iranian contact and wants to make plans to visit the country in the future

 

Ah man, I'd love to work in Iran. Sadly, they don't tend to employ native speakers as English teachers, and instead use the "send out people to learn it over there, then (hope they) come back and teach it here" approach.

[ReZourceman]

Interesting post.

 

[Emasher]

Now I don’t know what you would constitute to be a ‘Police State,’ but to me at least, I don’t know how that label can be applied in this instance. The lack of fear of punishment or execution, suggests it is not something which is ready to happen to people on a whim like we are lead to believe.

 

While this is definitely a good sign, there's a massive difference between being able to joke about officials and being able to openly protest or criticize them. If you went out in the streets with signs saying "Down with Kim Jong Il" you almost certainly would be arrested and either executed or sent to a hard labour camp.

 

Anyway, on the subject of North Korea:

 

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8265989/north-korea-soldiers-malnourished-report

 

Although, its certainly terrible that people are starving, but looking past that, this might actually be a good thing in a way. Starving people are much more likely to stand up for themselves and fight back than people who have other options. Especially when the military are the ones starving and the leadership looks like it will likely become much weaker in the next little while. Obviously a country controlled by the military is not a good thing, but it seems more likely that real change will come from the military than Kim Jong Il.

Edited July 2, 2011 by Emasher

[The Bard]

This thread makes me feel like I should know more about how the world works. The real world that is, and not the various fantasy worlds of which I have in depth knowledge .