Ronnie Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 Great post. I'll admit, they generally didnt feel quite as dramatic as TP (maybe the lack of that boss kill music) Was there a boss kill music at all in this game? Thinking back I'm not sure there was! Have to also admit the boss battles were quite underwhemling this time around compared to TP and Wind Waker. I thought the music was terrible. Well, it was 'nice', but it had no distinct feel and totally forgettable. Compare it to Wind Waker or Twilight Princess or obviously Ocarina. A real low for the series IMO.
Fused King Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) I can see an argument for the game having tons of "padding", but I think it's an issue of perspective. If you're having fun actually playing the game, most of this stuff feels like good content. Like, I just loved being in the game world for the most part and didnt resent any of that stuff. To me, there was just way too much hand holding, WAY TOO MUCH! Fi explained too much things that should've been left up to the player to find out, and having the camera zoom in on certain aspects of a dungeon to let the player know what he/she should do or go to was just too much a slap in the face. At times I really felt like I was treated as an 8-year-old. I also played OoT several times way later than its release, so I too don't hold any special nostalgia for it. In fact, it's one of my least favourite Zeldas because it's the groundwork for what a Zelda game should be, and no special sauce on top of it like the creepiness of MM, the charm of WW or an awesome sidekick like Ezlo of the Minish Cap. Speaking of The Minish Cap, I've recently been playing it again on my 3DS and I've almost finished it, but I believe the Minish are a seperate entity in the whole Zelda mythos and aren't really referred to in Skyward Sword. Could you elaborate on what you meant by your comment, James? Edited April 13, 2012 by Fused King
James McGeachie Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) Fi explained really obvious things, but they were the kind of things you notice at face value anyway. She never really gave solutions it was just like "Master, I calculate an 85% chance that this item will let you clear the way" or something which is like "yeah no shit" scenario. I don't think she really "helped" in that regard unless you were choosing to receive hints and what not. Some puzzles, back as a kid, I would've struggled with. Like, for example, firing arrows out the gaps in the grating in the pirate ship to hit the switch. My mind's been trained though really on how to "think" about Zelda pretty well. I guess people would say that means Zelda has become too predictable. That's one way of looking at it. I don't think think many similar games really offer more challenging puzzles though, unless they're heavily "layered". I think simple environmental puzzles in a game like Zelda are hard to make challenging to a veteran gamer now without multiple layers of complexity. I never really bothered too much about ease of puzzles in this game I guess. I'm going to admit that they never truly racked my brain - a couple of moments of confusion. For me I guess this Zelda was more about combat and it was rewarding enough that not having really challenging puzzles wasn't a big deal. Regardless of whether they were immensely challenging though, I was still having fun performing the actions to solve puzzles and progress through dungeons. Fact is there hasn't been challenging puzzles since like, MM and even then, there wasn't anything that drastic. I think Nintendo always tries to do good puzzles without going overly complex. For example, if they'd ever introduced multiple time stones and having to plan a route for them in advance with multiple possible scenarios. Maybe that's a bad thing, maybe they should put more faith in the gamer, but in this situation, it didn't bother me very much. Fused King, Minish Cap is meant to set up the tradition of the green hat and that no hero wore it before. Also, it was kind of implied that the four sword and what not was like some precursor to the master sword, or at least I'm pretty sure that's what people felt...and that it was a theory at points, one that seemed realistic? I am happy to believe though also that the legend of the sword is something that changes over time and that it loses its power and is eternally recreated by the heroes of different times. I also though would like to believe now that Fi still sleeps within the sword even in the latest games in the timeline(s). By the way, on a music note, this should've played when the triforce was brought together... Edited April 13, 2012 by James McGeachie
Wii Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 Sorry to say this because I love Zelda but I calculate a 99% chance that this was the worst Zelda EVER!!!
Ronnie Posted April 14, 2012 Posted April 14, 2012 I thought the bits where you collect the Triforce pieces were so lazily designed (after you warp into the room(s). Not to mention the fact that when you touch it, the standard 'item get' animation and sound effect played! They could have dialed up the drama a tad, considering your just achieved 1 third of the triforce!
Captain Falcon Posted April 14, 2012 Posted April 14, 2012 I thought the bits where you collect the Triforce pieces were so lazily designed (after you warp into the room(s). Not to mention the fact that when you touch it, the standard 'item get' animation and sound effect played! They could have dialed up the drama a tad, considering your just achieved 1 third of the triforce! See, I'm in two minds about this. On one hand, yes, you've just collected the triforce - the most powerful object in the series universe. It needs a proper fan fare. On the other hand, it made zero difference in terms of gameplay and hyping it up beyond belief for it to have no affect would have been something of a let down in my book. If suddenly Link was stronger, could shoot constantly from the Mastersword, had the ability to warp between check points or at least get some other gain from it, then sure. As it was, you get more benefit out of picking up a bug than you do finding the triforce as at least the bugs can be sold for rupees. I chalk it up to another lazily implemented idea to go alongside the forging of the Mastersword. I just don't think they really knew what to do with it but still felt the need to include it somehow.
Ronnie Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 The Zelda series has done forging of swords far better in Minish Cap and I think Phantom Hourglass, the Master Sword (especially given it's importance in the Zelda universe) was pretty lazily done as you say. RE: the triforce, I see your point about it not adding anything gameplay wise, but that shouldn't matter really. It's the Triforce, proper cutscenes were needed. Wind Waker would have had one. But they seemed hesitant to make many storytelling/descriptive cutscenes in Skyward Sword bizarrely enough, which was quite jarring after TP had a huge amount. Another nitpick about fanfares etc, I'm fairly sure collecting those 3 tablet pieces in the first half the game didn't give us any new jingle to listen to, and placing them in the wall in the Goddess tower, you'd expect a nice little cutscene? Nope, just silence. Seemed a bit meh. You compare to Wind Waker's putting the crystals in those little statue things and having them shoot beams of light between each one. That was brilliant. Skyward Sword just seemed a bit forgettable by comparison.
Jonnas Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 (edited) Just completed it. Man, Demise is now tied with WW!Ganondorf for best final boss in the series. For different reasons, mind you. If the Wii U is going to use Motion+, developers should take note of how it was used here, the controls were brilliant. Facing enemies, bosses... You actually felt like you were accomplishing something. It's the same feeling as facing a Stalfos in OoT, where it wasn't a matter of simply exploiting an weak point. Hell, it's even better, since you can actually get better at the game, and figure out the nuances of battling, little by little. Honestly, I think there's still a lot of room for improvement. Have bosses have more varied attacks, better AI and the like. As the game that introduced us to this control method, it's perfect. (Also, unlike Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, this game doesn't pull its punches. Awesome) Skyloft was cool. When people mention "the best towns", Windfall is always neglected, for some reason. Windfall is still the best for me, but Skyloft was on the right track, at least. I like how NPCs with something different to say regarding sidequests had bubbles over their heads, saved time whenever I re-explored it. I think Dowsing worked fine. It was an option to speed up normal questing, or make actual fetch quests as quick and trivial as possible. Plus, it also helps, near the end of the game, in finding the remaining Goddess Cubes. Regarding dungeons and puzzles... Sky Keep had a great idea, the Lanayru area had a new theme (alternating between eras without travelling through time? Great stuff), which the Sandship developed further (by the way, Sea of Sand is marvellous), and the Ancient Cistern deserves its own article. The 3 areas being separated didn't really bother me. They put plenty of stuff to do in each one, and that's what's important. Treasure hunting was great, just like in the DS games, even better, I'd say. This seems like a good sign that it's a mechanic that's here to stay, and keep growing (hopefully one day it might be as extensive as in an RPG) The art style was nothing to write home about*, but I do think it "corrects" Twilight Princess. Vibrant colours, nothing too dark and muddy... It's more lighthearted, like Zelda ought to be. Also, the characters look very emotive, which is excellent. Zelda, Groose, Link, Ghirahim... Even minor characters like Fledge, Pipit, Peatrice, etc. show plenty of charm. *Demise is the exception. Man, did he look like he was on a league of his own. Music kept mostly to the background, except in Skyloft and the Lumpy Pumpkin. It works well, and there are plenty of good pieces. No problems there. As for flaws...Fi was...overbearing. Interrupting you whenever possible. I can't help but think, she would've worked better as a voice in real time (or even as a simple text bubble, considering how I still can't see Zelda working with voices). Her personality was also dull, with the only interesting thing being her dancing. Also, slow text. Slow with Fi, slow with minigames...Urgh... Overall, a really good game, that avoids the worse elements of the Zelda formula (like "use item to defeat boss"). Not as good as the reviewers were hyping, but still, it's not often that we get a completely reworked control scheme that works. Oh, and I could finally put my real name there! ("João? Your parents have good taste!") (Also, I've been visiting the non-spoiler thread from time to time. Most of the criticism I saw there clearly stemmed from nostalgia goggles constantly comparing it to older games in the series. As I expected, those comments have subsided by now. But the criticism I saw regarding the motion controls is new, though. It's also funny, because it's the exact same thing I hear from non-gamers (or "casuals", whatever) using the Dualshock or the Gamecube controller. In other words, it's a control scheme that works fine once you get used to it, it's just not what you're used to. If you were trying traditional controls for the first time, you'd be saying the exact same thing about those. Just wanted to say that.) Edited April 15, 2012 by Jonnas
Fused King Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 @Jonnas Two things: Thanks for that Ancient Cistern article. I figure it will be a treat (what with being a student of Japanese and all), so doumo arigatou for that! Secondly, Demise is indeed in one hell of a different league than the rest of the game. I can't help but remember Miyamoto saying something about him not being good in coming up with bad guys. So I think, who ever came up with Demise, was all like: 'You want a brutally hellish end boss, consider it done!' The ending was totally fucking awesome, and I loved the fact that Ghirahim was actually Demise's sword!
Jonnas Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Thanks for that Ancient Cistern article. I figure it will be a treat (what with being a student of Japanese and all), so doumo arigatou for that! I always thought there was something odd about that dungeon, with the Buddhist motifs, and the sudden "hell" segment. Mind was blown when I found the article (though I found it before Sky Keep so I accidentally spoiled myself ) Secondly, Demise is indeed in one hell of a different league than the rest of the game. I can't help but remember Miyamoto saying something about him not being good in coming up with bad guys. So I think, who ever came up with Demise, was all like: 'You want a brutally hellish end boss, consider it done!' The ending was totally fucking awesome, and I loved the fact that Ghirahim was actually Demise's sword! I know, right? Demise is what Ganon's final form should look like from now on. When Ghirahim turned his hair like Fi's and started with the Master, I was just...He's the complete opposite of her! He's campy and emotional, while she is serious and robotic! Brilliant! And how awesome was it that both of them could do Skyward Strikes of their own? Evil versions of them! Man, I could gush about this all day
Ronnie Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 As vaguely epic as the final battle with Demise was, it was pretty straightforward and not a patch on the duels with Ganondorf in Wind Waker and TP. I actually found the two-part final battle with Ghirahim a lot more involved and interesting.
MoogleViper Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 People are actually praising the final battle? Other than "OMG DEMISE LOOKS LIKE A BADASS GANONDORF!!!" it was incredibly boring and simple. The ending was pretty poor as well.
Mokong Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 @Jonnas Just read that article, man that was awesome. Would have never considered Nintendo were actually retelling a budist story through the design of the dungeon, I just assumed it was one amazingly crafted dungeon, but never considered it held such a great hidden meaning too
Burny Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 I can't help but think, she would've worked better as a voice in real time (or even as a simple text bubble, considering how I still can't see Zelda working with voices). Quoted for truth. Zelda can work with voices just as about every other game can. You only need to listen to Xenoblade and Kid Icarus for some fantastic voice acting in Nintendo games.
Rummy Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 Almost went in awesome on gen chit chat, but might not be gotten so well there;
Ronnie Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 Skyloft could have looked so much better. The Zelda world is so much 'cuter' than it was back in the NES days.
V. Amoleo Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 I finally got around to completing this the other day. I really enjoyed it overall but here are some issues I did have: The controls were a bit of a chore. The Wii Remote Plus kept losing track of where it was so any of the game mechanics which required specific strikes became far more difficult than they were conceived to be. Fi was annoying like many have pointed out and would have been much better if you had to actually activate her to get her massive clues rather than them being given freely. The final boss was pretty cool and the whole story of it was really good but because it was so awkward to get Skyward Strikes on demand I just brewed up a Guardian+ Potion which made it a pushover. Even so, I'd say it was one of my favourite games of last year and one of my favourites on the Wii.
Fused King Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 @Rummy If that's Skyloft then what could that slingshot on the left be? The real King of Evil?
Rummy Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 @Rummy If that's Skyloft then what could that slingshot on the left be? The real King of Evil? Human error? :P I do think it's quite cool though, and I'm pretty sure that ain't no co-incidence.
FalcoLombardi Posted May 24, 2012 Posted May 24, 2012 @Rummy If that's Skyloft then what could that slingshot on the left be? The real King of Evil? And this is what the Americas were: Just playing Devil's Advocate.
Mokong Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 BUMP OF EPICNESS So I just started my 2nd play of this since I finished it way back whenever I finished it prolly sometime mid December last year I think it was. Decided to go with Hero mode.... the lack of hearts to be found is taking a bit to get used to. Before if you went into a fight with a mob of moblins you'd be thinking " a few hits won't bother me when I kill one he'll prolly drop a heart anyway".... now I'm going "damnit don't rush in stupid there's no heart drops" At least now I know about the being able to sit down on chairs to regain health. Didn't find out bout that till prolly half way into my first play. And its a feature that makes much more sense here on Hero mode now when it is your main way to heal, if you don't have a potion. Oh and enemies do double the damage too so can't wait for the boss fights, should be epic knowing one mistake could ruin everything Was also pleased to see that the relic items and such you use to upgrade get carried over from your first play to Hero mode. I was able to upgrade the wooden sheild as soon as I got it.... but only up one level, was short one bloody tumbleweed for the max upgrade So far I've played up to getting the slingshot and before I turned off I went back to Skyloft and was able to upgrade that to teh Scattershot right away too Are there any other differences to Hero mode or is that it?
Wii Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 BUMP OF EPICNESS So I just started my 2nd play of this since I finished it way back whenever I finished it prolly sometime mid December last year I think it was. Decided to go with Hero mode.... the lack of hearts to be found is taking a bit to get used to. Before if you went into a fight with a mob of moblins you'd be thinking " a few hits won't bother me when I kill one he'll prolly drop a heart anyway".... now I'm going "damnit don't rush in stupid there's no heart drops" At least now I know about the being able to sit down on chairs to regain health. Didn't find out bout that till prolly half way into my first play. And its a feature that makes much more sense here on Hero mode now when it is your main way to heal, if you don't have a potion. Oh and enemies do double the damage too so can't wait for the boss fights, should be epic knowing one mistake could ruin everything Was also pleased to see that the relic items and such you use to upgrade get carried over from your first play to Hero mode. I was able to upgrade the wooden sheild as soon as I got it.... but only up one level, was short one bloody tumbleweed for the max upgrade So far I've played up to getting the slingshot and before I turned off I went back to Skyloft and was able to upgrade that to teh Scattershot right away too Are there any other differences to Hero mode or is that it? I respect your opinion on most games but this is the worst Zelda in my opinion. I couldn't be paid enough to play this twice. I love Zelda. Own and have played them all. Majoras Mask being my favourite, then a toss up between TP and Links Awakening. You can tell they didn't try too hard, it was released too late for Wii. I liked the motion controls in general besides the constant resetting and oh yeah the constant resetting. Instead of creating new areas, they just reused the same assets non-stop over and over. I keep telling myself you can't hate this game, right, c'mon it's Zelda, ZELDA? But I think I do and there is something really disconcerting and annoying about this game.
Ronnie Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 IMO: Fantastic game, with a huge number of flaws. As much as I loved it, I can completely understand the criticisms. Nintendo really need to up their game massively for the next Zelda. Forget making it all about the HD visuals, that's the icing on the cake. The series needs a rethink, to step outside of the box and stop rehashing (like they do for New Mario). Are Nintendo scared to make as big a leap/risk as they did from OOT to MM, and from MM to WW? I really hope not. Ditch the hand-holding, make it more open and definitely bring back that intangible magic that made Wind Waker a joy to experience. I'll despair if we get a Twilight Princess 2 in HD type of game.
Hero-of-Time Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 IMO: Fantastic game, with a huge number of flaws. As much as I loved it, I can completely understand the criticisms. Nintendo really need to up their game massively for the next Zelda. Forget making it all about the HD visuals, that's the icing on the cake. The series needs a rethink, to step outside of the box and stop rehashing (like they do for New Mario). Are Nintendo scared to make as big a leap/risk as they did from OOT to MM, and from MM to WW? I really hope not. Ditch the hand-holding, make it more open and definitely bring back that intangible magic that made Wind Waker a joy to experience. I'll despair if we get a Twilight Princess 2 in HD type of game. There was a topic on Neogaf the other week that got on about the hand holding and tutorials of the newer Zelda games. I can see why Nintendo do it, they want to try and get more people to play the games and make it easy as possible for them to learn how to play. By doing this though they are just annoying fans who grew up with the series. I don't understand why you can't skip such segments or have an option at the start of the game to knock off hints, tips and tutorials. If you look back at the start of LTTP, that is how a Zelda game should start. You have a little introduction, great atmosphere and within 5 mins you have a sword in your hand and are exploring a dungeon. Even OOT is a good example, as you enter the Deku Tree pretty much straight away as well.
Jonnas Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 Even OOT is a good example, as you enter the Deku Tree pretty much straight away as well. Actually, no it isn't. The Deku Tree has a huge monologue before and after said dungeon, you're expected to gather 40 Rupees before entering it, and you're interrupted by tutorials such as "HEY! You can open doors if you press A!" I've seen plenty of beginners being turned off by the morose start. In SS, you can enter the initial cave and practice with your sword pretty early, and then you get stretches of plot afterwards (one of which involves learning how to ride your bird, another one involves following Fi throughout the night). As far as structuring goes, SS is not significantly worse than OoT. In fact, I'd go as far as saying Majora's Mask is the only 3D Zelda with a quick start (the game was going to be an expansion of OoT, maybe that's why) That said, SS's problem was the sloooow texts, making everything seem slower, and Fi sound worse (I believe half of her advice was supposed to be amusing banter that fell flat). I wonder if anyone would be complaining about the hand-holding if the scenes flowed just a little better.
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