What was 'wrong' with Twilight Princess?

[Goron_3]

The thing that made wind waker so good is that islands like Windfall had SO much character! I mean, the sheer AMOUNT of sidequests on that one tiny island was quite remarkable and even the moment you get to island and have to play hide and seek with the kiddies makes you feel so attached to the whole island. One particular side quest was the one where you had to take 3 different pictures of that camera guy...god they were a bitch!

....OH! And there was one when a girl was stealing money from the safe at night and you had to follow her around all stealthy...<3

 

TP barely had any side quests which was a shame, and it particularly hurt it when after dungeon 5 the game spoon fed you to the next the dungeon and you couldn't do much else.

 

As for Hyrule Field being linear, well i would kind of have to agree to an extent. It felt pretty small when you consider half of it was unreachable, which was surprising compared to WW and OoT. Was an alright overworld but nothing special at all.

[Hellfire]

Yeah TP did miss those sidequests with a more personal feeling no doubt about it, I agree with you there, Windfall island was awesome. Of course that's a side effect of the game being smaller and having few populated islands. TP did have a lot to do, although they weren't quests per se, I was always doing something other than the main dungeons even after the last dungeon so I didn't feel a lack of "sidequests", just like people complained about the Triforce hunt in WW and I didn't feel it, because I was always sailing and getting treasure and exploring.

 

I still can't for the life of me, comprehend how people found Hyrule Field and the rest of the world small or linear. Even just the Hyrule Field is big and has enemies and places to go, whereas in WW it's obvious it was pretty stretched. WW did give off a bigger feeling of traveling, because you had to sail huge empty distances and it took a while to go somwhere and that was Nintendo's objective, to leave players with that impression, but the truth is that the world was much emptier than TPs.

 

But the thing is, the world is much more diverse, explorable and complete than the other Zelda, because when you're not in Hyrule Field itself, there are lots of locations that are integrated in the world instead of being dungeons. You could reach every place you see(of course you couldn't climb mountains and such, but that's a ridiculous thing to ask and don't say SOTC did it, that was a game designed around climbing), you saw the castle in the distance, Lake Hylia, Death Mountain, etc. you could go there. Then there were the hidden caves, the beautiful Lake Hylia, the ability to swim underwater, going up the waterfall to go to the Zora's domain, the Gerudo Desert was huge, you saw the fortress in the distance you could go there, there was the cave of ordeals, Snowpeak etc... I mean, in WW it was huge, but filled with nothing, barely any enemy encounters, most islands were tiny pieces of rock and asides from the 3 villages, everything else were dungeons instead of being a part of the outside world. You could only see a silhouette when you were far, but close enough, which was an awesome touch, but in TP, you can see everything if there isn't something in front of you. Liking one overworld or another, that's a matter of taste, but I don't think it can be said that the world in TP was small.

 

Also, pre-emptive strike, for the love of hypnotoad, we're all discussing this like civilized people and stating reasons and facts, so please try not to start attacking me, because I'm always "defending" TP, because it happens every damn time mmkay?

[Sheikah]

Or by 'wrong' I mean missing. Also sorry for all these questions, just things that are on my mind.

 

It seems to be an almost universal fact that TP lacked 'something' that the N64 Zelda games had, even though technically TP is totally superior to at least OOT in possibly every way, well maybe minus the NPC involvement/attachment.

 

What i first noticed while playing TP was the lack of idle animations, ie the movements Link do while the player doesn't press anything. In OOT Link would; arrange his belt, look back and around, stamp his boots, strike his sword, try out his shield, yawn (especially during morning/night), sneeze in cold places and wipe sweat away from his head in hot places and more.

In TP it was reduced down to the boot stamping, and I think just one more movement. Maybe these reductions were a sign of rushing the game. You might think its insignificant but consider the LOL you get when Mario trips occasionally in paper Mario.

 

So, yeah maybe it was rushed a bit, or could it be due to the lack of Miyamoto involvement?

 

I also didn't like the natural barriers of the world... Using a cannon to get to the Desert, to get to the sky temple and using a (cough) cucco to get to the Lost Woods. It was so very restrictive, unlike OOT and MM but a bit similar to Wind Waker.

 

But did TP seem lacking in any specific area to you?

 

 

I don't think details like arrangements of the belt etc had anything to do with OOT being liked more in the end. It boils down to four major things...hype, freshness, our age and the public trend.

 

The series had been hyped to the next level since OOT, so really it's a no brainer that people would be disappointed or at least be playing a game that was worse than it would be. By freshness, I mean that OOT was using a relatively new format, and was the first Zelda game to do this in 3D. By the time TP came along, plenty of Zelda games, as well as 3D ones, had been out, meaning that the same tasks you were doing in TP weren't so great anymore.

 

Age, I think, is important. Most of us here are old enough to have played Zelda games before, and thus TP probably isn't our first one. Even if it is, just being old itself makes games less great. When I was younger, games seemed so much better, while now I tend to do loads of other things besides games. I remember playing Mario 64 like it the best thing ever....now when M64DS came along, it was just another good game for me to play and finish. Same with other Mario games.

 

Finally public trend...back in the day Zelda OOT was pretty much in its element. Now while you have TP coming out you also have other great games, particularly ones that surpass the game graphically and perhaps even in terms of fun.

 

Put simply, if this game was released instead of OOT back in the day, but with N64 graphics, chances are everyone would treat it just the same as OOT.

[James McGeachie]

Seems I'm in the minority who preferred TP to WW. While I agree on many of the points - I love the cel shading, I love the story, etc - it just didn't grab me like TP did. Indeed, I never actually finished WW, because I got so bored of sailing about, and the Triforce quest near the end just completely took it too far and I gave up.

 

You should really finish the game. It has one of the more epic end sequences of the franchise.

[darksnowman]

-TP's dungeons were great, actually. It was a different approach, mainly because they bothered to introduce some story-telling within the dungeons. Add that to the new items and good design, and you get something great.

What I didn't like, though, was how the items were under-used outside the dungeons. Did anyone use the beyblade, or the ballchain outside their respective dungeons? I really wish they expanded more on that (and I hope they will, in a future Zelda)

 

I used the ball and chain as much as possible! From fighting baddies to breaking walls and stuff cos it basically worked on most things you would have used bombs for. I think its a great item!

[Jonnas]

I used the ball and chain as much as possible! From fighting baddies to breaking walls and stuff cos it basically worked on most things you would have used bombs for. I think its a great item!

 

Hmm, I don't remember the Ball & Chain working as bombs. I thought it just broke things bombs didn't, and vice-versa. I guess I'll take back what I said about that, then.

 

But the spinner should've really seen more use, though. I really hope they improve on that one. We could see more uses for it, wether in puzzles, battle or movement (like climbing those mountain ledges. What if we could use the spinner to climb a jagged mountain?).

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

I don't think details like arrangements of the belt etc had anything to do with OOT being liked more in the end. It boils down to four major things...hype, freshness, our age and the public trend.

 

 

I used that comparison because I felt they perhaps underlined a lack of creative flair in this new Zelda team. Those unecessary quirks added in games like OOT and Paper Mario really show the developers having fun and really brainstorming a lot of ideas. With TP (and Super Paper Mario), these little suttleties are lost leaving the game feeling like a raw concoction of only the base ingredients of what a Zelda must have.

 

So yes, these little details may add to the charm of the game placing it in a special corner of the gamers heart. Stuff like seeing Mario and Yoshi posters in the castle rooms, having characters resemble Mario and Luigi (Talon and Ingo?), and scarecrow dances - nothing of that sort is featured in TP.

 

And back to characters, I really cared more for Talon and Ingo at Lon Lon Ranch than those two homo-looking dudes at Lake Hylia in TP - not because of my age or freshness etc but to the fact that they expressed CHARACTER! Those camp carpenters running around kakariko, the arrogance of young Princess Ruto, Darunia and the Kokiri kids...scale to scale, TP pales in comparison. These little touches are what I feel contribute to the lacking magical spark in TP

[Blue_Ninja0]

But the spinner should've really seen more use, though. I really hope they improve on that one. We could see more uses for it, wether in puzzles, battle or movement (like climbing those mountain ledges. What if we could use the spinner to climb a jagged mountain?).

 

Yeah, I also felt that the items could have been better used outside of the dungeons. But the game had a huge amount of them too.

[darksnowman]

Stuff like seeing Mario and Yoshi posters in the castle rooms, having characters resemble Mario and Luigi (Malon and Ingo?), and scarecrow dances - nothing of that sort is featured in TP.

 

Malon (Marin) was the girl, Talon (Tarin) was the man that looked like Mario.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

Malon (Marin) was the girl, Talon (Tarin) was the man that looked like Mario.

 

Whoops, knew I got them mixed up, thanks.

[The Bard]

I thought TP was a great game. The problem was that it progressed in exactly the same way as every Zelda before it.

 

I loved WW, I prefer it's graphical style to any Zelda game thus far, and it's my favourite Zelda outside LTTP.

[Hellfire]

I thought there were awesome characters, Midna is the best Zelda character ever, King Bokoblin's last appearence was great specially because he's just a mini-boss and well... an orc or something and he showed character, Colin's struggle to be brave and the way he changes since the beggining is awesome, Malo is hilarious, Ilia was the typical girl that needed to be saved but she showed feelings for Link which is a first in Zelda, the Mayor, Rusl and his band of freedom fighters are pretty cool too.. I also found Ralis very memorable and likeable, brave even when he's dying. Heck, I could go on, Telma, Renado, Yeto and Yeta and obviously Zant, which goes from the stylish clichéd badass villain to

a madmen that's Ganon's puppet just like Aghanim was in ALttP

. It's a matter of taste I suppose.

 

There were lots of small "worthless" details, Midna's animations were very very varied and awesome and make up for the lack of Link's idle animations, the Forest Temple being pretty much the Deku Tree, people's reactions to wolf Link, controlling cucoos, seeing cats running attacking them, a woman called Impa, Link sheating his sword like a badass, the fortune teller saying "loading bla bla" backwards as if they were magic words, different ways of mounting the horse, picking up used arrows, the Oocoos being from a M.C. Escher painting, making pumpkins grow with water and if you use the lamp in the bomb shop the owner will pour water on you for example. Oh and the gay cannon guy has a bullet bill on his sleeve. (I'm making this long posts, because I don't feel like studying -.-').

 

It's a shame they didn't use the spinner more, the parts that use it are amazing, specially the Stallord and the dominion rod was pretty much useless asides from the temple that used it and those statues. <3 Ball & Chain though.

 

EDIT: found some easter eggs here: http://boards.ign.com/legend_of_zelda/b5188/135608456/p1/

I should be studying...

[Sheikah]

And back to characters, I really cared more for Talon and Ingo at Lon Lon Ranch than those two homo-looking dudes at Lake Hylia in TP - not because of my age or freshness etc but to the fact that they expressed CHARACTER! Those camp carpenters running around kakariko, the arrogance of young Princess Ruto, Darunia and the Kokiri kids...scale to scale, TP pales in comparison. These little touches are what I feel contribute to the lacking magical spark in TP

 

 

Maybe you did, but the majority of gamers probably loved the game for its gameplay...something that isn't fresh anymore, particularly with all the games we've played and that are out now. Little extra things like characters were nice, but I think OOT is held in such high regard because of the actual gameplay and settings. The dungeons were such great fun, and Hyrule field was huge for its time.

 

Really TP is a great game, but we've played lots of Zelda games now and the game clearly was never going to have the same impact as OOT. I don't think any Zelda game ever will (except Majora's Mask, for me).

[nekunando]

I played Twilight Princess constantly when I got it (I'm up around 30 hours in it..) but the problem I have had with it is I don't feel a huge desire to go back to finish it yet..

 

I dipped my toe in again a few weeks ago and figured out where I was and what to do next.. but it was very brief and I just didn't have the enthusiasm at the time. I guess you just have to be in the mood to play that sort of game as sometimes you just don't feel like getting stuck into a big adventure..

[...]

One problem I can point out right now, is that you return to Ordon too quickly. Even though the game is of epic length and size, details like this remove epicness from it. You finish one Temple and before you begin the second one, after you leave Ordon, you have to return so quickly? They should have made it so that you only have to return after some 4 or 5 dungeons, that way you would feel more the passing of time.

 

Another thing I don't like is the music in Hyrule Field. Both during the day and during the night. I don't like the tune during the day, and I don't like the fact that the night has music at all. It should only be ambient sound, like it was in Ocarina, again this would add something to it, atmosphere wise, more isolation. It's all in the details. The big picture is all awesome in TP, it's little details like these that make the difference.

 

Oh and the music in general is very disapointing to me... Most temples have bad to unlistenable music. i can mention right now that the City in the Sky had probably the worst I've ever heard. Really headache inducing.

[Jonnas]

@Hellfire: Yes, you're right, those small things aren't worthless, and it's things like those that prevent me from actually "hating" TP. That, and the good bosses/dungeons (Stallord may be the best Zelda boss ever). Nice easter eggs, by the way. I knew a bunch of those, but others went unnoticed.

Also, who was Ralis? Seriously, the name seems familiar, but I can't quite place it .

 

@Sheikah: I believe the reason many people loved OoT wasn't gameplay alone. Charm, story and the like played a huge part in it's success. How else to you explain the huge amount of OoT-based fan-material in the Internet?

[Sheikah]

@Sheikah: I believe the reason many people loved OoT wasn't gameplay alone. Charm, story and the like played a huge part in it's success. How else to you explain the huge amount of OoT-based fan-material in the Internet?

 

They are indeed things people loved it for, but there is no doubt that the defining thing was the gameplay. By defining thing, I'm talking about the one thing that Zelda needed to make a huge impact on the gaming community at the time. As the first 3D Zelda, it introduced an epic and somewhat innovative quest with an amazing puzzle dungeon system that has since been rather copied. Like Hellfire said, there were plenty of animations in TP, but the fact is that people just remember OOT's NPCs and slight quirks fondly, particularly as we were younger back then or it was one of our earlier 3D action/RPG genre games.

 

 

Any money that in 10-15 years, there will be people our age saying similar things about later games in the series.

[Jonnas]

Any money that in 10-15 years, there will be people our age saying similar things about later games in the series.

 

I'm already saying that about WW.

 

I also loved Link's Awakening, which I played relatively recently (before TP, but after Minish Cap and Oracle of Ages). I don't hold LA as the best 2D zelda because of the gameplay, though. I hold it because of the simple, yet touching story, world and characters.

[Hellfire]

@Hellfire: Yes, you're right, those small things aren't worthless, and it's things like those that prevent me from actually "hating" TP. That, and the good bosses/dungeons (Stallord may be the best Zelda boss ever). Nice easter eggs, by the way. I knew a bunch of those, but others went unnoticed.

Also, who was Ralis? Seriously, the name seems familiar, but I can't quite place it .

 

 

The Zora prince. Also, you suck.

:P

 

 

@Sheikah: I believe the reason many people loved OoT wasn't gameplay alone. Charm, story and the like played a huge part in it's success. How else to you explain the huge amount of OoT-based fan-material in the Internet?

 

Everything is a part of OoT's success, it's a fucking amazing game, but c'mon, let's a have a little perspective here. OoT was launched 10 years ago, was the first 3D Zelda, it was revolutionary and most of us were very young. That changes the whole equation, it's basically like giving out rose-tinted glasses. Which is basically what Sheikah, but wtvr :P OoT deserves all the praise in the world though, not saying otherwise.

[Zell]

Just so we're all clear on this: Link's Awakening = Best Zelda :P

[flameboy]

Well I have been reading this thread whilst collecting my own thoughts and views on this issue. Whilst there is no way it can be said that Twilight Princess was a bad game it is on that is perhaps not as good as it could have been.

 

It was almost a greatest hits game. It took what we liked about the Zelda games of the last few decades and put them into one package, retold and reimagined the story and served up everything you would expect from a Zelda game. All the people you expected to see, new versions of the same locations etc...

 

Now perhaps the controversial part of my view. The series has to evolve past what it currently is. It has that common flaw of a Nintendo IP that it largely hasn't changed and just slowly refined. The wolf mechanic wasn't anywhere near as innovative as expected and just yet another use of duality in the series that has been a stable since Link to the Past.

 

It needs to take on parts of other games in the genre, Okami, Folklore, God Of War all games that are either action rpg/adventure that all could offer something to the Zelda series. TP did in some ways start to move towards God Of War epic levels with the boss fights but I think we could see some of its combat system. We have been playing Zelda for years now, give us a more refined and complex combat system. Don't be scared of scaring off the casual they can have Phantom Hourglass. Folklore offers its own fair share of mechanics that could be incorporated in someway.

 

Another way it could be improved is moving closer to movies. TP did have some Lord of Rings overtures to it and they should play on this. Make it more epic, everything bigger, have Link fighting along side others (perhaps something like the big battle scenes in Viking for PS3 and 360) and also give Link a voice! Yep you heard right, the Zelda series needs to move on how it rolls out its story and I honestly feel that voice acting has to come. Link could be recreated into a hero with a voice up there to match Solid Snake (hell get David Hayter...ok that bit was a joke) I don't mean that Link should be like Solid Snake but it all helps to the characterisation and would help create the hero we crace rather than the blank slate we get in every game.

 

Now I don't think you to have voice acting for a game to be great. I mean look at Foreman, gamings greatest mute. Perhaps just voice acting for the rest of cast would be a compromise for those who can't handle Link talking.

 

Thats it for now...

[stev2604]

Reading this makes me realise what a great game TP was.

 

I do feel though that they could have included more side quests and more memorable characters. Lon Lon Ranch would have been a great addition, and a Kakariko Village that was more like the one in OOT. Maybe a better Goron town, though I felt Zora's Domain was perfect. Castle Town too could have been made better, by giving a proper 3rd person view and more characters to talk to. This would give more things to do between the later dungeons.

 

Again, as I said, TP is a great game as it stands, but to me these aspects would make it better. TP was a really enjoyable game, but I didn't enjoy it as much as the other 3D Zeldas. I'm not saying it's a lot worse than the others, more of a least good of an excellent bunch scenario.

[Start/Select]

Oh where to start with Twilight Princess?

 

Well there was almost any part of the game where you played wolf link which was an absolute bore in my opinion (until you got to lake hylia).

The lack of a real enthusiastic story didn't help and I think I'm the only person in the world who really hated Midna. Other than that Hyrule didn't have a very Hyrule feel it was interesting but trying around it was a bit linear it was go in one direction or the other. The key places also felt really uncomfrotable, I loved travelling around the goron village and zora domains in OOT and MM but in TP it's just not a fun really. I think TPs main problem is that it was just proof that the Zelda games need to change and so much in TP pointed that out, the typical dungeon to dungeon set up, the boring intervals between.

 

On the pro side I will say that horse back attacking was good and some areas like Lake Hylia with the giant bridge looked amazing. TP, not the worst but far form the best.

[Pit-Jr]

Now I don't think you to have voice acting for a game to be great. I mean look at Foreman, gamings greatest mute. Perhaps just voice acting for the rest of cast would be a compromise for those who can't handle Link talking.

 

Thats it for now...

 

Link needs a voice and a personality. As it is with so many RPG's with a mute protagonist, Link has the personality of a traffic cone.

 

I dont get the argument that Link is supposed to be a 'link to the player'. Im not a pointy-eared Hylian with green tights but Link is so why cant they go ahead and expand on him a little

[Tellyn]

To combat the "Link has no personality" argument, I refer you to Wind Waker. The amount of emotion and personality expressed through Link's eyes is comparable to Gromit, no need for voice acting when you've got that.