Serious Thread #2: Animal Testing

[Daft]

I'm more in favour of using prisoners instead of animals myself (well, the ones sentenced for life, anyways). It seems a lot more acceptable, and would more likely be more accurate.

 

 

...but I suppose if we run out of them, then I'm all for animal testing.

 

I vote for this idea!

[Jamba]

Also maybe its because the UK court system is meant to be based on justice not punishment. Just because someone has done something heinously wrong, doesn't mean that they should lose all of their privelages a s human being. That would be a very slippery slope to go down.

 

Does anyone remember that story last year about those guys who went on the drug trial that had VERY bad results. That was a horrible (if over hyped) situation where a group of people got seriously. If it wasn't for animal testing this would happen frequently. But hey from the look of this thread I'm preaching to the converted.

[DCK]

I dunno, I kind of have a grudge against the antiglobalists that continually protest against stuff like this. I'm pro animal testing as long as it's the best option.

[The fish]

Also maybe its because the UK court system is meant to be based on justice not punishment. Just because someone has done something heinously wrong, doesn't mean that they should lose all of their privileges as human being. That would be a very slippery slope to go down.

 

Does anyone remember that story last year about those guys who went on the drug trial that had VERY bad results. That was a horrible (if over hyped) situation where a group of people got seriously. If it wasn't for animal testing this would happen frequently. But hey from the look of this thread I'm preaching to the converted.

 

QFT

Animal testing should be used for drugs as they are dangerous, yet essential.

As for cosmetics, testing them on animals ought to be banned.

[Zell]

I'm all for animal testing, I do question the acceptability of animal testing for cosmetic purposes though.

[Chris the great]

well, animal testing is crule, but if we didnt have it, most of us wouldent live so long.

 

there arnt enough people on life sentences to test the drugs, theres probebly only enough people on life sentences in the country to test 3-4 drugs, as there needs to be an adiquite sample size, which will ensure the drugs are safe. it may turn out that the drugs only work on 75% of the population, hgaving terrible effects on the remaning 25%, as a result you need hundreds of participants, and you cant re use them.

 

testing of cosmetics on animals is a little more unethical, as we dont need cosmetics to live, however, if a rat could go blind through use of cosmetics , or a person, id rather it was the rat. people will always want cosmetics.

 

hopefully in the future scientists will devise a new way of testing products, but untill then, its a necicary evil that animals take the fall on this one.

[ThePigMarcher]

Personally , I also agree with the test on prisoners arguements - if they are unquestionably guilty of crimes like murder , rape and child abuse then their life is infinately worth less than that of any animal and their human rights should be abused/ignored as a result.

 

Some have argued that testing on animals will not always provide accurate results as to the drugs capabilities of treating the same disease on humans anyway so it does seem to be a bit pointless.

 

I still also can't understand those who value human rights above animals anyway , as there doesn't appear to be any logical reason for us humans to assume we are the more superior race.

 

Given the choice between having a life threatening illness ignored or treated with drugs that were tested on animals I would choose the former - that being said it is easier to say that at the present when my health is reasonably OK.

[The fish]

Personally , I also agree with the test on prisoners arguements - if they are unquestionably guilty of crimes like murder , rape and child abuse then their life is infinately worth less than that of any animal and their human rights should be abused/ignored as a result.

 

As they are human then their rights are permanent. They do have responsibilities, but so do we as upholders and defenders of human rights.

To force a chemical into a person for any reason other than to cue them of an illness is purely criminal and evil.

 

Get real.

[mike-zim]

Maybe the testing should be done on rapists and pheados and murderes. They should all be totured then maybe people will think twice before commiting crimes.

[Blackfox]

Hmm, I think that animal testing is a necessary evil. I wouldn't ever let is happen for cosmetics though.

 

Now, I wouldn;t go about doing it to criminals. They may be evil little bastards, but some might be innocent. Some might have reformed and repented for their past ways - do more or less torture them would be in human, and put us in the same bracket as countries like Iran and North Korea - granted they don't (afaik) test drugs on prisoners.

 

What I would like to see if these animal rights activists put their ideals where their mouth is when they need life saving drugs. We'll soon see how many of them refuse them!

[Chris the great]

animal tests are actualy alot more applicable mto humans then some would think, the basic physiology of mamels isn't 1,000,000 miles appart, and if we inject a virus into a rat, and try a drug to treat that virus, the effects shouldnt differ. the rat is really more of a container for the experement, as many virus treatments attack the actual virus, which is the same in a human.

 

however, it is true that certain conditions and disseases affect animals differently. monkeys don't mind AIDs, it dosent seem to do them any harm. testing the effects of drugs against aids on monkeys might not be valid.

 

however, scientists arnt stupid, they choose the best fit animals for the study, pigs are often used due to similar organs, the tests really are rather applicablt to humans in most cases

 

oh, and unless a lot more people start to become commit of muder, rape and child abbuse we simpl;y don't have a large enough sample to test drugs on humans.

[Ginger_Chris]

I'm currently at Oxford so this is a big topic of discussion around here. As you might know theres a new animal labs testing building being built and theres a fair amount of protests and such.

 

Firstly, I don't really understand why the protesters are stopping the building from being built, It's primary purpose is to provide more spacious and better environments for the animals being tested on, so they have a better quality life. While the protesters are doing their thing, animals are just being kept in the facilty just down the road that was built in the 70's, without much consideration of the animals. So while the building work is stopped the the protesters are actually lowering the animals quality of life.

 

Minor point aside, as a scientist I feel tha animal testing, as long as it is advancing human knowledge is a very valuable tool. I completely disagree with testing on animals for things like consmetic products. Human vanity is not something animals should be made to suffer for. Also the animals should be kept in good environment, be as unstressed as possible and not be allowed to suffer as much as possible.

The benefits of animal testing are enormous, being able to cure more diseases, grow organs for transplates that have the same generic makeup as the recipient would be massive advances. No more organ waiting lists ever, just for the life of a pig. New drugs that help people live with less pain and suffering. Animal testing really needs to be there so that these drugs are made sure to be safe and to deveoper the drugs in the first place.

And lets not forget that before animals are even tested on, hundreds of pre-tests, mathematical modeling, testing on cell cultures, bacteria etc have already gone ahead. Animal testing is only done when its really needed and not on the whim of whatever scientist is in charge.

 

Anyway, I think the protesters are really going the wrong way about it, colleges have been firebombed, peoples dead relatives have been dug up, students and staff have been subjected to death threats and verbal abuse. Its not the right way. If you don't agree with animal testing,t avoid it, don't take any drugs, medication, dont have most medical processes. Don't try and bully the rest of us into doing what you want, most people just think their crazy. My personal belief that the majority of the protesters that are violent and extremest are just using the cause as an excuse to convince themselves that their actions aren't wrong, just like most religious extremists.

 

(anyone else think its ironic the word protester has the words PRO and TEST in it?)

[The fish]

(anyone else think its ironic the word protester has the words PRO and TEST in it?)

 

Yes, and I think the group called Pro-Test that supports the Animal Testing lab in Oxford picked up on that point too...

 

Did anyone else watch the program about the animal rights campaigners and the Pro-Test people? The debate they had in the pub was chaired by a guy who was at my school, 3 year groups above me. He was a friend of my sister's, and was stupidly intelligent, wise and political.

If anyone one from my school is ever going to become the PM, it's going to be him.

[bob]

countries like Iran and North Korea - granted they don't (afaik) test drugs on prisoners.

 

 

Actually, we were told in our Biomedical materials module, that in LEDCs (not specificallly Iran and NKorea) they often skip out animal testing anyway, and go straight to testing on humans.

[The fish]

Actually, we were told in our Biomedical materials module, that in LEDCs (not specificallly Iran and NKorea) they often skip out animal testing anyway, and go straight to testing on humans.

 

But do they force it, as some people here are suggesting we do on prisoners?

 

What I would like to see if these animal rights activists put their ideals where their mouth is when they need life saving drugs. We'll soon see how many of them refuse them!

 

This gave me an idea: why don't we see if the animal rights protesters would be willing to be test subjects for drugs that aren't previously tested on animals?

If they truly wanted to protect animals, then they would say yes, in order to save at least some animals from testing.

We'll soon see how many of them refuse!

[Jamba]

As they are human then their rights are permanent. They do have responsibilities, but so do we as upholders and defenders of human rights.

To force a chemical into a person for any reason other than to cue them of an illness is purely criminal and evil.

 

Get real.

 

 

Glad to see someone say this. I am actually really surprised that so many people think that"murderers" and "rapists" (please note that those labels will be categorised by how they are convicted not whether they are or aren't) should have testing forced on them.

 

Have you folks never done anything wrong in your whole lives? Ever wanted to undo your wrongs or maybe learn fro your mistakes. There is a reason why we dont have capital punishment in this country. Testing drugs on prisoners and treating them as sub-humans means that you are taking away many of their human rights. Doing so means that you might as well kill them because lets face it you wouldnt feel even slightly bad about killing someone that you've been forcing drugs upon.

[mike-zim]

Glad to see someone say this. I am actually really surprised that so many people think that"murderers" and "rapists" (please note that those labels will be categorised by how they are convicted not whether they are or aren't) should have testing forced on them.

 

Have you folks never done anything wrong in your whole lives? Ever wanted to undo your wrongs or maybe learn fro your mistakes. There is a reason why we dont have capital punishment in this country. Testing drugs on prisoners and treating them as sub-humans means that you are taking away many of their human rights. Doing so means that you might as well kill them because lets face it you wouldnt feel even slightly bad about killing someone that you've been forcing drugs upon.

 

this made me chuckle. yes i have broken a window, stolen some chocolate blah blah blah. but it is a bit different from rape or murder or child molestation. those people are the scurge of society and i tell you what if they were made to suffer properly then i think there would be less crime as the consequeces are more seriouse. i hope that you are never in a siyuation were one of these people have an influence on your life, you might think very differently if they harmed someone close to you.

[Jamba]

this made me chuckle. yes i have broken a window, stolen some chocolate blah blah blah. but it is a bit different from rape or murder or child molestation. those people are the scurge of society and i tell you what if they were made to suffer properly then i think there would be less crime as the consequeces are more seriouse. i hope that you are never in a siyuation were one of these people have an influence on your life, you might think very differently if they harmed someone close to you.

 

Glad I can make u laugh!

 

I understand what you mean. My brother got bashed up by some guy with a metal chair while he was at work and his lung collapsed. It's the worst thing that has happened to any of my immediate family. The guy who did it was a complete junky and was blatantly re-offender. He couldn't even be charged with GBH on my bro cos he was already in jail! If I wanted punishment based justice, then I know he would go out and do it again. He would be hardly any different from before.

 

If he was educated and brought to terms with what he has done then maybe he would genuinely think twice before doing anything again, instead of being frightened into not doing it. Also if his life was restructured and he was helped to get off the drugs and all then he would at least have a chance to become a well adjusted person. To me I don't see the picture on such a personal level, I would rather that justice worked in a more long-term effective format to reduce criminality in society as a whole.

 

But hey, we are getting WAY off the beat n track. Come chat about it here: http://www.n-europe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13826

 

(Shameless plug i know....)