Speedfreak Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 Not really. If you take a car, give it a new tire set, a new paint job and a spoiler, then it drives somewhat nicer it's still essentially the same car. You listed pretty much everything that could be changed without a whole new chip philosophy. If you replaced all the parts in the car with better parts you would literally have a new car with nothing of the previous car remaining. PC GPUs have been the same for years, the difference between a Geforce 3 and the 7800 inside PS3 is more shaders, more flexibility in the shaders, more RAM, clock speed and a better GPU. They're all beefed up versions of previous designs with not much of a change. 360s GPU design, which merges pixel and vertex shaders into unified shaders, is a slight evolution; but even then that's not an enourmous leap, it just affects efficiency. The real leap in GPUs will come with DX10 PC GPUs, which will have geometry shaders introduced into the graphics pipeline. Basically, Hollywood is the same kind of step above previous GPUs as all GPUs for the past 7 or so years. It's just not as big a step. But you're still quite wrong to assume there's some phenomenal difference between an X800 and an X1800 that amounts to something more than beefing up what's already there. The funny thing is the GC was quite RAM limited, it only really had 24MB available for graphics other than the framebuffer. This is why you rarely saw much variation in bump maps (which cannot be compressed like regular textures); Rogue Leader's were mostly straight lines and one rocky surface. It's also quite possibly why normal maps were never used, they use 3 times the space of bump maps. It might've been a RAM issue and not a GPU issue. Wii has triple the graphics RAM available now, and if it has built-in bump/normal map compression/decompression you could see a huge leap above GC and XBox.
DCK Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 You listed pretty much everything that could be changed without a whole new chip philosophy. If you replaced all the parts in the car with better parts you would literally have a new car with nothing of the previous car remaining. PC GPUs have been the same for years, the difference between a Geforce 3 and the 7800 inside PS3 is more shaders, more flexibility in the shaders, more RAM, clock speed and a better GPU. They're all beefed up versions of previous designs with not much of a change. 360s GPU design, which merges pixel and vertex shaders into unified shaders, is a slight evolution; but even then that's not an enourmous leap, it just affects efficiency. The real leap in GPUs will come with DX10 PC GPUs, which will have geometry shaders introduced into the graphics pipeline. Basically, Hollywood is the same kind of step above previous GPUs as all GPUs for the past 7 or so years. It's just not as big a step. But you're still quite wrong to assume there's some phenomenal difference between an X800 and an X1800 that amounts to something more than beefing up what's already there. The funny thing is the GC was quite RAM limited, it only really had 24MB available for graphics other than the framebuffer. This is why you rarely saw much variation in bump maps (which cannot be compressed like regular textures); Rogue Leader's were mostly straight lines and one rocky surface. It's also quite possibly why normal maps were never used, they use 3 times the space of bump maps. It might've been a RAM issue and not a GPU issue. Wii has triple the graphics RAM available now, and if it has built-in bump/normal map compression/decompression you could see a huge leap above GC and XBox. Well, you're right to some extent, but that means you're considering the GeForce 6800 and 6800GT to be different chips as well, while they are the same thing at different clock speeds and memory and shader setups. You're also confused about what really makes a chip run fast. Shaders and memory only really help a GPU to make it more easy to serve the graphics with a better topping (light effects, texture resolution) whereas its real capacity to make graphics is determined by its bandwidth, its amounts of pixel pipelines, texture units and render output units. Those haven't changed in the Hollywood, except that its clockspeed will allow for 50% more work, which is a small step. Like you say, the difference between the GeForce 7800 (PS3) and the GeForce 3 (Xbox), is a better GPU. And that's exactly what the Wii doesn't have. Either way it's not really worth discussing whether we call the chip new or not. Fact is, it doesn't improve that much over the GameCube, so you shouldn't overestimate it. The additional memory is, like you say, bound to make the most difference.
Jamba Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 Please guys can we just cut it and get back to Metroid. If you wanna talk about it, make a new thread.
Speedfreak Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 Well, you're right to some extent, but that means you're considering the GeForce 6800 and 6800GT to be different chips as well, while they are the same thing at different clock speeds and memory and shader setups. A 6800 and 6800GT use the exact same chip, one is either a crippled or overclocked version of the other. That's different to Flipper and Hollywood which are two different chips with two different designs based on the same approach to 3D graphics and sufficient similarities to allow for backwards compatibility. You're also confused about what really makes a chip run fast. Shaders and memory only really help a GPU to make it more easy to serve the graphics with a better topping (light effects, texture resolution) whereas its real capacity to make graphics is determined by its bandwidth, its amounts of pixel pipelines, texture units and render output units. Those haven't changed in the Hollywood, except that its clockspeed will allow for 50% more work, which is a small step. Like you say, the difference between the GeForce 7800 (PS3) and the GeForce 3 (Xbox), is a better GPU. And that's exactly what the Wii doesn't have. 1) How do you know what changes have been made to Hollywood's pixel pipelines or TEV? The only "information" we have on it are it's better clock speed and extra cache. Given how little clock speeds mean in highly parallel GPUs it could mean bloody anything. 2) Gamecube pissed over Xbox in terms of bandwidth, it was a much more bandwidth-friendly design. Didn't stop Xbox looking better through more RAM and more shader power. 3) I was saying that the extra memory could make a lot of difference with Flipper, let alone Hollywood. Either way it's not really worth discussing whether we call the chip new or not. It's not worth discussing because you're wrong, maybe. That's all this was ever about. I don't give a damn whether or not Wii has phenomenal graphics. If I did I'd spend a grand on a new PC. I can just plainly see that Metroid (back on topic) and Mario look way better than Prime and Sunshine ever did, and that's indicative of Wii's power. The single player could have been made better still!Same with Prime 2, but in this case, it didn't!! The multiplayer added nothing to the game, it was pretty rubbish and all because Nintendo folded under pressure from fans and made Retro put one in, which I'm pretty sure they didn't want to do! I really don't think the single player in Prime 2 could've been made much better. The only problems anyone ever really had with it were purely game design issues, no amount of extra time saved from not doing the multiplayer could've helped that because that's the direction they were going in. The world was sufficiently large, there was a large variation in graphics, just as many bosses and enemies and power ups; there simply was no problem with it content-wise. Retro can risk making a good multiplayer mode all they want if they keep the single player just as good and nail the controls, in my opinion.
... Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 The Metroid timeline is no secret and has always been set out! unlike Zelda. Each new adition has been given a definate place in the timeline! It goes; - Metroid/Metroid Zero Mission (hence Zero) - Metroid Prime - Metroid Prime: Hunters - Metroid Prime 2 - Metroid Prime 3 - Metroid 2 - Super Metroid - Metroid Fusion (new suit!) Isn't Metroid Prime a sequel to Super Metroid? Samus beats Ridley in Super Metroid and then in Prime there's Meta Ridley, a Ridley cyborg that suggests is a resurrection of some sorts. That and other things.
Guest Jordan Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 I thought it was: Metroid I Super Metroid Metroid Prime Metroid Prime: Hunters (possibly just a spin off or a gaiden) Metroid Prime 2: Echoes Metroid Prime 3: Corruption Metroid II Metroid Fusion
Cube Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 Isn't Metroid Prime a sequel to Super Metroid? Samus beats Ridley in Super Metroid and then in Prime there's Meta Ridley, a Ridley cyborg that suggests is a resurrection of some sorts. That and other things. Nope, Metroid Prime is before Metroid 2. In MP3, he's just "Ridley", not Meta-Ridley. (Probably a de-stripping of the mechanical parts to operate/save his life). edit: Super Metroid is after Metroid 2 http://metroid.jp/metroid_version2/history/index.html Official Timeline: Metroid Metroid Zero Mission Metroid Prime Metroid Prime: Hunters Metroid Prime 2: Echoes Metroid Prime 3: Corruption Metroid 2: Return of Samus Super Metroid Metroid Fusion
Guest Jordan Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 How wrong i was >_> Yeah, i had a look at Wiki and that has some good explainations and such.
Fierce_LiNk Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 Seriously, you'll all be trying to put a timeline on the Mario Kart games next.
Guest Jordan Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 Well thats an easy one! Super Mario Kart Mario Kart: Super Circut Mario Kart 64 Mario Kart: Double Dash!! Mario Kart DS ...Oh wait you were being sarcastic. :p
Fierce_LiNk Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 *slaps Jordan on the face* I just wanna get this game and enjoy it for what it is. I think many get too caught up with places games in a timeline rather than just...enjoying the damn thing.
Gaijin von Snikbah Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 Actually Mario Kart: Super Circuit came after Mario Kart 64. FYI. :p
SpinesN Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 That wouldn't make sense, since Flipper was manufactured by NEC, who did (or was supposed to do) a core shrink from 0.18 to 0.13 microns on it's own, to cut costs; this by mid 2003's. The only doubt I have is if they ever done it, since cube production got stalled (in order to no build up too much stock) in mid 2003. But it was possible, no need for ATi on that one. I agree. I was being facetious in order to show that the paying of money to ati for a die shrink/overclock was an illogical idea. :p
DCK Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 How do you know what changes have been made to Hollywood's pixel pipelines or TEV? The only "information" we have on it are it's better clock speed and extra cache. Given how little clock speeds mean in highly parallel GPUs it could mean bloody anything. Maybe the developers making those "overclocked GameCube" comments may actually know what they're talking about, as they kind of work with the hardware we're talking about. You're basing this new GPU idea only on Mario Galaxy and MP3 videos, which could be done on a Flipper if it had some extra TEVs (shaders), really, as the only difference is the considerable amount of extra shading over GameCube. It makes it look great, no doubt, but it doesn't mean they've made a new chip. Quite frankly, if the chip was really new, then it would have been better than it is now. Anyway, going back to multiplayer, I really can't be bothered to play a half made attempt of multiplayer that was in Metroid Prime 2. I think it was really lame and I only played TimeSplitters for multiplayer shooting. If Retro has suddenly gone Metroid Prime Hunters with the time they've had though, then it would easily be the best Metroid ever. I don't see that happening though.
mcj metroid Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 Metroid Prime 3's Late Arrival Retro Studios' third installment in the Metroid Prime franchise was all set to arrive for Wii in time for the system's launch, but then it got quietly delayed beyond the holiday season. It's not coming in the first quarter of 2007 and we've been told not to expect it through June. So why does a game that's originally scheduled to debut with Wii get delayed by more than eight months and when, exactly, will it finally release to the masses? Depending on who you talk to, the delay is 1) to add an online mode (which we hope is not true) or 2) for purely marketing reasons. Regardless, we wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo held it well into the third quarter. Oh, Samus, how we'll miss you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ign for you!the only people in the wor;d who dont want a metroid online or even a multiplayer
Retro_Link Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 ign for you!the only people in the wor;d who dont want a metroid online or even a multiplayer(As we've been discussing) I don't want them to make Metroid Prime 3 online, or add multiplayer! Retro should just focus on an epic finish to the story (as they seem to want to do - they didn't want multiplayer in the first place!). They could then take the series in an online/multiplayer/co-op ditrection for the next installment of Metroid or a spin-off series. A tacked on multiplayer, is the worst kind.
or else you will DIE Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 yeah, i'm also completely anti-online/multiplayer
pedrocasilva Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 (As we've been discussing) I don't want them to make Metroid Prime 3 online, or add multiplayer! Retro should just focus on an epic finish to the story (as they seem to want to do - they didn't want multiplayer in the first place!). They could then take the series in an online/multiplayer/co-op ditrection for the next installment of Metroid or a spin-off series. A tacked on multiplayer, is the worst kind. Thing is... Wii needs online gaming, and a good one at that. So let's hope they deliver with Wii, and there's no better title than Metroid Prime 3. and yes, I'm still hoping for a unified friend code system to be used in online games.
DCK Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 Thing is... Wii needs online gaming, Agreed. and a good one at that.Metroid Prime 2's multiplayer doesn't convince me an online mode would be good. Unless Retro ask NST to make them a class multiplayer, I'd rather not see them try and focus on the single player. and yes, I'm still hoping for a unified friend code system to be used in online games.What do you think your Wii Console Code is for? If that's not the friend code, then what is?
Shino Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 A spin off would be better suited for online gaming, like many have said, it would be better to do a Space Pirate VS Galactic Federation.
Hellfire Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 I would like a strategy game like a mix between SW Rebellion and RTS where you control the trade federation or space pirates.
LazyBoy Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 Alright so what kind of locations would people like to see in a Metroid game. Forget about what's likely to be in Corruption. Personally i'd like to see more outside areas, maybe like a forest (with trees for platforming), or a desert (think Road Runner Arizona, big ass cliffs). One of the problems with Echoes compared to Prime 1 was that you didn't have many bright areas to contrast with the dark areas (Phendra drifts v Magma caverns).
Cube Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 Metroid Prime 2 didn't "suffer" from a multiplayer mode (which was quite fun), and the new control scheme suits multiplayer a lot more than Prime 1 and 2 (main problem was the aiming/lock-on). But, yea, a "tacked-on-at-last-minute" multiplayer is always rubbish. I mean, look at GoldenEye. But still, the new control scheme will make the multipleyer/online much better than MP2's multipleyer.
Hellfire Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 But, yea, a "tacked-on-at-last-minute" multiplayer is always rubbish. I mean, look at GoldenEye. Not sure I follow you there.
Retro_Link Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 Not sure I follow you there.He's trying to say that Goldeneye's was tacked on at the last minute, yet it was awesome! Can't say I've heard of Goldeneye's multiplayer being tacked on, but even if it was, it doesn't do anything to the fact the Metroid Prime 2's was tacked on and WAS rubbish! People don't exactly mention Prime 2's multiplayer as being up there with Goldeneye's do they! ---------------------------------- I keep forgetting that Prime 3 was almost a launch title! That means that the main game was in a near complete state; so if the game does end up being released almost 1 year later, it means that what ever it is that's causing the delay is something major! If it is an online/multiplayer aspect, and they've been working on that side of the game alone for almost a year, then in that case, the multiplayer could be something very special indeed!
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