Doctor Who

[yesteryeargames]

what a stinker , didn't enjoy a second of that episode .

[Serebii]

Wasn't the best episode, but it was somewhat nice to have an episode without a big-bad and just focusing on a wonder.

[Grazza]

I quite enjoyed last night's. It was nice to just have a sci-fi idea that you can apply to real life (trees are very underappreciated, I feel) without them feeling the need to have monsters in the story just for the sake of it. I was also thrilled at the reference to the Tunguska Event - one of our biggest and most thought-provoking mysteries.

[Cube]

And I thought "Kill the Moon" was bad. This episode was extremely similar - no actual danger but "wonder" instead, utterly stupid science, pointlessly added "monsters" (in this case animals from the zoo), the very same "we've seen the future of Earth but it could be rewritten" plot point to add false drama and the ending just putting everything back to normal via magic.

 

What made this one worse was Clara's decision to let the kids die because they would "miss their parents". I could understand ignoring the people on Earth in order to save an innocent life (like Kill the Moon), here it just doesn't work at all and instead seems like a weak plot point to get The Doctor in the TARDIS on its own. Overall, the episode seemed like fan fiction that a uneducated environmentalist (by this, I mean the writer is uneducated -there are plenty of environmentalists who know a lot about the subject) and not a real episode.

 

Luckily, the rest of the season has been pretty great so it's still a good season. It's just odd that we get two incredibly similar terrible episodes.

[Supergrunch]

I don't really understand why people complain about bad science in Doctor Who - it's about a resurrecting alien who flies a geometry-warping time machine around, but suddenly if the moon hatches like an egg, everyone's up in arms. That said, this latest episode was pretty bad - it seemed like the writers only really had one idea, and didn't do much with it.

[Cube]

I don't really understand why people complain about bad science in Doctor Who - it's about a resurrecting alien who flies a geometry-warping time machine around, but suddenly if the moon hatches like an egg, everyone's up in arms. That said, this latest episode was pretty bad - it seemed like the writers only really had one idea, and didn't do much with it.

 

"Suspension of disbelief". Alien technology allows for lots of wonderful things, but when basic science is done utterly wrong, then it's just poor writing.

 

The idea of a forest suddenly growing on Earth isn't the poor science, that's something that could work in Doctor Who, but the part of them "making an oxygen pocket" to guard the Earth from a "coronal mass ejection" just reeks of them not understanding any science and unable to think of a good reason for the forest to exist (and completely ignores all the radiation and damage to our technology).

 

Just a quick idea that would have improved it significantly: these trees have iron content and are denser based on magnetic fields. They then "enhance" the Earth's magnetic field. It's still out-of-this-world, but it works. It's still not a great thing, but it's much better than what was in the episode.

 

Again, with Kill the Moon, have the thing hatch and lay a new egg, which then reforms the "shell" out of the same material instead of the moon breaking into tiny bits and a completely new one appearing. Also, remove the "single celled organisms" thing and just have them as parasitic creatures that live on these creatures.

 

Essentially, the problem is with them using real science completely wrong in order to disguise poor writing.

[Supergrunch]

Well, I always took the point of Doctor Who to be giving up any attempts to suspend disbelief and enjoying the ride. The attempts to use scientific ideas can be pretty hilarious though, but I don't think it's bad writing to e.g. call the spider things single-celled organisms, any more than it's bad writing to, say, relate weeping angels to the observer's paradox. I mean, this season has had a fair amount of poor writing, but I don't think the science has had much to do with it - what we need is believable scenarios, dialogue, and characterisation, not for the sci-fi to go from mush to soft.

[Happenstance]

I think I might just have to stop watching the show until Capaldi gets replaced. I barely enjoy it at all anymore. To be fair I havent enjoyed much of the season altogether but even in the crap episodes I would at least be able to enjoy watching the Doctor but Capaldi's version just has nothing.

 

Also I think Danny Pink has been a complete mess this season. I actually quite liked the actor and character at the beginning but his relationship with Clara has been so rushed to get to the point it needed to in this episode that I couldnt believe any of it. I can absolutely imagine Amy going to the lengths that Clara did if it was for Rory but nothing about this has made me care.

[Retro_Link]

The Master reveal was terrible. It just feels like an attempt to try and satisfy those calling for The Doctor to change gender.

[Cube]

I thought it was a great episode.

 

Although the reason for The Master's name change was rubbish. There's absolutely no reason why she can't carry on calling herself "The Master". It could have easily have been explained as her using the name because she didn't want to reveal herself at that point, and then carry on with "The Master" in the next episode.

[S.C.G]

So no one else liked it then?

 

Oh well, I enjoyed it, saw it coming about halfway through the episode but still thought it was decent, Michelle Gomez is good at playing evil roles so this was always going to be decent. : peace:

 

There are still a few nagging questions but I'm sure they'll be answered in the finale.

[flameboy]

I have absolutely no problem with the reveal of the Master however it does seem somewhat unnecessary when there is already a certain popular female timelord who people would love to see come back. Also I had hoped for a return to the Pertwee days where we had two older commanding figures as the Doctor and the Master which is kind of where I expected them to go after John Simm was David Tennant's equal. Who knows maybe when he best him here we end up seeing him regenerate into something similar.

 

One thing I hated the marketing of this episode absolutely wrecked the reveal o what was happening with the dead bodies as it became pretty damn obvious early on.

Edited November 2, 2014 by flameboy

[Serebii]

 

Just got round to watching it due to "Halloween" party last night. Decent enough episode. Clearly setting up for the second half next week. Totally called Missy being the Master at the start, but still not disappointed when it happened.

 

Roll on next week. Curious as to if they'll show how he/she (oh god, the pronouns while talking about the Master are going to go wonko) regenerated and got off Gallifrey

Edited November 2, 2014 by Serebii

[Agent Gibbs]

Well...i liked the episode as a whole, and now Danny Pink has had some character development i like him a little more, the whole concept of the episode was great, playing on fears/revelations of death (christ can you imagine being conscious after death.....)

 

but the master

I just don't like they way they've pandered to those who've wanted a gender/race change for the Doctor by doing it with his greatest enemy,it just seems like a box ticking cop out....if they wanted a strong female role bring back the Rani...

 

or

 

I didn't think it was the master.....i was totally expecting her to go on about being left behind in some sort of monologue and then finish it with something like...."Whats the matter Grandfather, feel betrayed like i did" and it turn out to be Susan (his grand daughter.....which i really wish it was now, going full circle with the Doctor cycle, right back to the routes, plus being betrayed by family (although that could have been achieved by his daughter, only she had one heart so i ruled that out), explore those that get left behind (its been touched on before by companions of what happens to those who came before etc)

Missed opportunity to revive a female character who's been left behind, ignored and 'left for dead'

 

meh the name change just made it even more of a joke, Timelords choose their name for life don't they? so why change when the gender changes if its something that could occur? surely there would be precedence of it? and to my knowledge their isn't in this way.... unnecessary the whole lot

[Ashley]

 

Roll on next week. Curious as to if they'll show how he/she (oh god, the pronouns while talking about the Master are going to go wonko) regenerated and got off Gallifrey

 

There are gender-neutral pronouns

[Cube]

Like "shkle" and "schler".

[Grazza]

I thought it was a brilliant episode, but also agree with everything that @flameboy said. Last year's finale with Richard E Grant was good, but to me, last night's was actually the first time Steven Moffat has managed to match a Russell T Davies season finale (meant 100% as a compliment). Of course, that was only part 1.

 

But yes, the Master reveal felt like such a cop-out when it could have been the Rani. Felt "too" clever, in that they already had an option that would have been more natural and exciting, but used a gender gimmick instead, just for the sake of it. Can't believe they didn't play the Time Lord heartbeat when the Doctor felt her heart either!

 

Still, overall, very good.

[flameboy]

I thought it was a brilliant episode, but also agree with everything that @flameboy said. Last year's finale with Richard E Grant was good, but to me, last night's was actually the first time Steven Moffat has managed to match a Russell T Davies season finale (meant 100% as a compliment). Of course, that was only part 1.

 

But yes, the Master reveal felt like such a cop-out when it could have been the Rani. Felt "too" clever, in that they already had an option that would have been more natural and exciting, but used a gender gimmick instead, just for the sake of it. Can't believe they didn't play the Time Lord heartbeat when the Doctor felt her heart either!

 

Still, overall, very good.

 

Yep like I said no actual problem with it being the Master but I do wonder if we will see any sort of flashback and reason as to why he took female form....Just there could have been a better option.

 

It all comes down to that Cybermen reveal they managed to keep Missy's identity secret so why not keep that quiet too it would have been amazing.

 

So where do people stand on the whole dead thing? Are we to believe that they are in fact not dead and instead their bodies are plucked out of existence at the last minute....this is some sort of mechanism to get people to give up and delete themselves as perhaps if they do it willingly they will be better Cybermen? Or they are only alive in the form a Cyberman and the afterlife is a simulation as part of the indoctrination process.

[The Peeps]

I thought about it for about 5 seconds to reply to you and the whole thing basically unravelled in my head...

 

Their dying minds are 'downloaded' to the cyber mainframe or whatever so when we see Danny Pink we're just seeing what he thinks he can see... he's actually just code at that point. So my question is, if they can pluck the mind from someone like that then why do they bother waiting for them to die? Also why do they even need their minds at all? That's the first thing they delete usually! It's a lot of effort to go through just to get people to 'donate' skeletons... and if it's just a skeleton inside the metal suit then why is that needed at all either?

 

Please don't ask any more questions, I was fairly content with the episode before now :p lol

[flameboy]

I thought about it for about 5 seconds to reply to you and the whole thing basically unravelled in my head...

 

Their dying minds are 'downloaded' to the cyber mainframe or whatever so when we see Danny Pink we're just seeing what he thinks he can see... he's actually just code at that point. So my question is, if they can pluck the mind from someone like that then why do they bother waiting for them to die? Also why do they even need their minds at all? That's the first thing they delete usually! It's a lot of effort to go through just to get people to 'donate' skeletons... and if it's just a skeleton inside the metal suit then why is that needed at all either?

 

Please don't ask any more questions, I was fairly content with the episode before now :p lol

 

Yeah ok I'm with you on all that....my point about the simulation as part of the indoctrination process goes with what you said about dying minds being uploaded to the mainframe. Still doesn't explain The Master plucking dying people from all over time and space to use as Cybermen? Why not just round up people off the streets as before? Is the entire army going to be formed from people the Doctor "killed" in some other kind of twist?

 

I also question the Doctor's motives around taking Clara to the afterlife....later in on the episode when it looks like there may be some kind of afterlife he starts to say there is no such thing? Now did he:

 

A. Not believe Danny was dead and knew they would find him?

 

or

 

B. Aim to take Clara on some sort of trip to help her get closure.

[Grazza]

So where do people stand on the whole dead thing? Are we to believe that they are in fact not dead and instead their bodies are plucked out of existence at the last minute....this is some sort of mechanism to get people to give up and delete themselves as perhaps if they do it willingly they will be better Cybermen? Or they are only alive in the form a Cyberman and the afterlife is a simulation as part of the indoctrination process.

 

I believe most of them are, but maybe not Danny. We saw the villain in the first episode impaled, and the fried hand of the community support officer in The Caretaker. Danny, though, might have just been whisked away to get Clara there.

 

I also question the Doctor's motives around taking Clara to the afterlife....later in on the episode when it looks like there may be some kind of afterlife he starts to say there is no such thing? Now did he:

 

A. Not believe Danny was dead and knew they would find him?

 

or

 

B. Aim to take Clara on some sort of trip to help her get closure.

 

I don't think was B. It was probably that he knew Clara had a psychic link to Danny and, if he was anywhere, she had a chance of finding him. There's also the option that he suspected there might be some sort of scheme going on.

 

I've got some more thoughts but I'll put them in spoilers in case they're right.

 

Seems to me that, once again with the Cybermen, emotion is key. If minds really have been uploaded to a Time Lord hard drive, it might be to separate their emotions out so they're usable by the Cybermen. Why did they show Danny the civilian he killed? To get the emotion out of him, I think. The Cybermen can't use the bodies until they press 'Delete'.

 

The Doctor will know how to use this hard drive and will probably utilise the emotion within.

 

[flameboy]

I believe most of them are, but maybe not Danny. We saw the villain in the first episode impaled, and the fried hand of the community support officer in The Caretaker. Danny, though, might have just been whisked away to get Clara there.

 

 

 

I don't think was B. It was probably that he knew Clara had a psychic link to Danny and, if he was anywhere, she had a chance of finding him. There's also the option that he suspected there might be some sort of scheme going on.

 

I've got some more thoughts but I'll put them in spoilers in case they're right.

 

Seems to me that, once again with the Cybermen, emotion is key. If minds really have been uploaded to a Time Lord hard drive, it might be to separate their emotions out so they're usable by the Cybermen. Why did they show Danny the civilian he killed? To get the emotion out of him, I think. The Cybermen can't use the bodies until they press 'Delete'.

 

The Doctor will know how to use this hard drive and will probably utilise the emotion within.

 

Yep totally agree with your Possible Solution....

 

I also read an interesting theory on The Master:

 

We all know the Master has found incredible work arounds to elongate his life past his alloted regenerations (even though he was given extra during the time war?) including whatever the hell that witchcraft was in the End of Time. So the theory I read was What if his mind is in fact in the hard drive and he just appearing in Missy's body...doesn't explain the double heart beat though. Which I'm assuming is genuine by the way the Doctor kept his arm held out afterwards as something was amiss.

 

Edited November 3, 2014 by flameboy

[Agent Gibbs]

Yep totally agree with your Possible Solution....

 

I also read an interesting theory on The Master:

 

We all know the Master has found incredible work arounds to elongate his life past his alloted regenerations (even though he was given extra during the time war?) including whatever the hell that witchcraft was in the End of Time. So the theory I read was What if his mind is in fact in the hard drive and he just appearing in Missy's body...doesn't explain the double heart beat though. Which I'm assuming is genuine by the way the Doctor kept his arm held out afterwards as something was amiss.

 

What if thats right and he's in a cyber body with two artificial hearts..... so it wasn't a normal rhythm and it threw the doctor?

 

what happened to the masters original body anyway?

 

[flameboy]

What if thats right and he's in a cyber body with two artificial hearts..... so it wasn't a normal rhythm and it threw the doctor?

 

what happened to the masters original body anyway?

 

Well....

Lost his original body way in the Tom Baker era...he was in fact a black corpse like thing...as he was in his final regeneration and decaying. He later took over somebody else's body and wiped their memory...

 

I recently watched the Five Doctors and in that he is offered a new set of regenerations if he helps locate the Doctor (whose various incarnations keep getting plucked out of time). I don't remember if he actually gets those regenerations.

 

In more recent history his as it stands “original body” is exterminated by Daleks after he faces trial (1996 McGann movie), it's alluded to that this was his final body form and then he takes liquid form apparently as a result of all the crazy ways he extended his life in the past. He ends up falling into the eye of harmony presumably to his death....

 

Until he is resurrected during the Time War of the new Doctor Who...to be the ultimate warrior. So presumably this is the "body" in so much as it's an incarnation of the original Master brought back (much the same as how Peter Calpadi is still the same Doctor despite being past his final generation....)…or they use the timelord matrix/hard drive to place his consciousness into a newly renewed body.

 

So then we have Professor Yana who becomes John Simm who the Doctor burns following his death (as he busts through many regenerations off screen).Now I'm unsure how he is resurrected in the End of Time by just his ring alone...he has a barely functioning body that requires him to constantly eat. So it could be seen that it's his mind inhabiting a body that appears as his previous John Simm incarnation.

 

So it’s a muddled maze his original body was long since gone it would appear.

 

 

These are bits I remember.

 

It's also noting at this point that there is a history of him concealing his identify has happened before....the body I mentioned before belonged to someone called Tremas an anagram of Master. So the Missy thing is not such a jump…except for why was it necessary to change sex/why did he want to.

 

Also something worth mentioning about Clara that I read on Den of Geek, is there some possibility that she ends up in the Timelord mind matrix/hard drive and somehow in the mind of the Dalek where we first find her during Asylum of the Daleks? It’s long been assumed this was as a result of her going into the Doctor’s time stream.

Edited November 4, 2014 by flameboy

[Esequiel]

No. Just no. If they are going to play shit out like this just cancel the show now. Worst episode of Dr Who since the new seasons began with Ecclestone.