What are various series' lowest points?

[Glen-i]

This thread was inspired by a conversation I had with @Dcubed that went real bad, real fast. I'm still not entirely sure how it happened, but...

We started talking about the "low points" of different series in the gaming business. The moments when it was pretty universal that "this is not a good look".

For clarification's sake, I'm not talking about games you personally didn't enjoy. So, using myself as an example, I can't go out claiming Breath of the Wild is Zelda's low point, because that's just dumb. It's a crazy success!

Here's an actual example that might come to mind for most people.

Yeah... That's what I mean. When it was released, this movie was a commercial flop that barely resembled the source material, and at that time, I'd say it was Mario's lowest point, and it stayed that way for quite some time. It damn well discouraged Nintendo from trying another movie for decades, that's for sure!

But I think there's been at least one lower point for the series, and here it is.

If there was ever a screenshot that proved how desperate Nintendo got during the GameCube era? This was it.

This is from NBA Street V3. Now, don't get me wrong. This isn't me dunking on the game, I heard it was perfectly OK. And it certainly isn't a low point for EA. But it's pretty obvious what happened here. EA weren't interested in releasing this on the GameCube because it was getting destroyed by the competition. So Ninty pulled out a power bargaining chip and offered the use of Mario, Luigi, and Peach here.

So, you should have an idea of what I'm looking for now, but here are a couple of other great candidates.

That's Bomberman: Act Zero. Yes, that Bomberman. No, I have no idea what drugs they were smoking when they thought a gritty reboot of all things was a good idea!

And finally, one I had actually blocked from my brain until Dcubed bought it up. Because when he said "Young Conker" I thought he was referring to that Game Boy Colour game.

Oh dear god! It all came flooding back once he clarified what he meant!

I mean, I don't know what to say apart from, yes, that's meant to be Conker from Bad Fur Day. No, I have no clue what they were thinking.

Young Conker was a platform game made for the Microsoft Hololens. The reception it got was swift and brutal. Even Banjo's Nuts N' Bolts redesign (Another great low point) would look at that and give it a big "oof!"

Unlike Banjo, Conker hasn't quite recovered from this yet, time will tell, but it's not looking great.

That said, while looking for some images, I came across this drawing.

Yep, that's my head canon now.

So that's enough from me, any examples that come to mind from you lot? Come on, really make me regret making this thread.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Glen-i

[Dcubed]

Bomberman Act Zero? Aww, that's cute... Let me show you the real series lowpoint for our little bomber dude...

Introducing... Bombergirl!

 

This wonderful little trashy piece of trash is the most utterly desperate attempt imaginable to jump in on the MOBA craze.  Released in Japanese arcades in 2018, Bombergirl is a 4v4 League of Legends knockoff where our favourite bomber dude has been turned into bomber dudettes.  So far so crap? Oh wait... let's check out the game's official description...

 

Quote

As Bombergirl, not Bomberman, this is an enjoyable new title with new game elements that is not only fun to play, it is also fun to watch.

Based on the block-destroying gameplay of Bomberman, Bombergirl tasks players with destroying the opposing team’s base before the other team in four-versus-four cooperative battles. By adding new game properties such as this, it is not only fun to play, it is also fun to watch. And with the button that pops out at the end, a match of Bombergirl is a sight worth seeing.

By raising strong and cute Bombergirls, you can make use of not only bombs, but various other skills. You can proceed through the match with the upper hand by strategically using skills. Bombergirl will have exciting matches that you can’t take your eyes off until the very end.

... err... what kinds of sights...

Spoiler

Oh...

 

Oh no...

 

... why, it's softcore hentai of course!

But that's ok you say, it was just a Japanese arcade exclusive! Nobody could actually play it anyway! Who cares? Wait... what do you mean that it actually got a home release on PC!? AND YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR EACH AND EVERY TIME YOU PLAY A SINGLE GAME WITH THE HOME RELEASE!?!?!?

Wow... softcore porn doesn't come cheap these days...

Anyway, that's my quick rundown of this lump of sheer embarrassment.  I just made your day worse.  You're welcome

Edited March 13, 2022 by Dcubed

[Dcubed]

Just to set the mood and tone for the rest of this thread... here's a few more examples, including a couple that you probably know and one you may well have not until now!

Fire Emblem Fates turned out to be a fine enough game in its own right... but I don't think that anyone can really argue that the petting scenes aren't the trashiest low point for the series as a whole...

 

So offputting and disrespectful that it legitimately killed my interest in the entire series until Fire Emblem SD&TBoL got released on Switch

 

Monster Hunter... the movie!

 

 

And finally... The Legend Of Zelda: The Mirinda of Time! A Mexican advert where Link gets a thirst for some cold, sweet Mirinda juice!

 

That's... not really rad Link...

 @Cube Get in here and start educating us about Sonic's lowest lows, we had too many games to choose from; and we don't know Sonic merch and tat nearly as well as you do  

Edited March 13, 2022 by Dcubed

[Glen-i]

44 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

 

 

I read that description before watching the video, and thought "That can't be official"

But yep, there's a Ninty trademark in the bottom right!

That's definitely a new one for me!

[Cube]

Sonic has had some truly terrible games, but really, the only real answer is also in the way the most boring: 14 November 2006

 

 

I personally didn't think Sonic 06 was as bad as people made out, although Sonic Genesis is a horrendous port. That said, the Sonic brand was damaged so much by Sonic 06 that it is still felt today.

I also feel like Sonic and Amy's "relationship" is quite a low point, and in a lot of versions comes across as abusive from both of them. One of the things Sonic Boom did better.

One potential low point actually ended up being one of the best things to happen to the brand (in terms of its overall popularity): the original film design. Got a ton of attention and I think more people saw the film because they fixed it.

 

For Mass Effect, I can pinpoint one particular scene in Andromeda.

personally, I never found this to be particularly bad, I've heard people actually use the "my face is tired" line to describe a type of weariness.

 

But it was perfect meme material, lots of people ended up forming opinions on Andromeda based on this alone and shared their hate, leading to cancellation of DLC and the franchise being put on hold. 

Internal documents for later games even mention avoiding problems that could easily be "memed".

 

 

[darksnowman]

8 hours ago, Glen-i said:

But I think there's been at least one lower point for the series, and here it is.

If there was ever a screenshot that proved how desperate Nintendo got during the GameCube era? This was it.

This is from NBA Street V3. Now, don't get me wrong. This isn't me dunking on the game, I heard it was perfectly OK. And it certainly isn't a low point for EA. But it's pretty obvious what happened here. EA weren't interested in releasing this on the GameCube because it was getting destroyed by the competition. So Ninty pulled out a power bargaining chip and offered the use of Mario, Luigi, and Peach here.

Interesting way of looking at it. They were also in SSX On Tour and was Little Mac in a boxing game or was that axed? I thought it was a cool way of setting the GC versions of those EA BIG games apart rather than desperation/ a low point for anyone involved. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.  

So, is something like Snake being in Smash Bros the low point for him then?  

[Glen-i]

1 hour ago, darksnowman said:

Interesting way of looking at it. They were also in SSX On Tour and was Little Mac in a boxing game or was that axed? I thought it was a cool way of setting the GC versions of those EA BIG games apart rather than desperation/ a low point for anyone involved. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.  

So, is something like Snake being in Smash Bros the low point for him then?  

You're thinking of Fight Night Round 2, which did happen.

That doesn't look quite so bad, as EA attempted to make Little Mac fit the visual style and it makes sense for him to show up in a boxing game.

But NBA Street V3 just clashes horribly with Mario-style characters. They look so ridiculously out of place.

Like, if you thought New Donk City in Odyssey was a weird clash, then NBA Street V3 takes the cake! It was definitely a desperation move on Nintendo's part thanks to the GC's poor reception. EA definitely got the better end of that deal, mind. No-one bought a GameCube to play those versions, let's face it.

You joke about Smash, but Snake became the landmark moment that showed that third parties were on the table. It helps that Smash was already a massive crossover game in the first place, but Smash Brawl is a good contender for MGS's highest highs.

I mean, they used him for the reveal of "Everyone is Here" that Ultimate had. So he did it twice!

@Cube, that's a good shout on Mass Effect there. Even I, a person who is completely disinterested in the franchise, knew about that scene. It was everywhere, and doomed Andromeda almost immediately.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Glen-i

[Julius]

So while I can't comment on the series as a whole having only played one (very long) game, to this day there are still two scenes and the treatment of one particular character from Persona 5 which just don't sit well with me. This isn't an indictment of the game (there's a lot to love there), but these two scenes and the handling of one character in particular. 

So, first off is the animated cutscene of the Phantom Thieves heading towards a Palace through the desert, in which you get the male members of the gang staring down Ann's shirt as they all sweat it out: 

So, I have a few issues with this scene and Ann's depiction in the context of the entire game, besides, well, the male members of the Phantom Thieves being a bunch of horn dogs. 

Ann's entire arc - her Palace and her Confidant quests to romance her, I mean to be honest throughout the entirety of the game - depict her being objectified by the male gaze, and particularly in her Palace at the start of the game by an adult. The game outright condemns sexualising women, and in this case high school students, which is A-okay in my book, that's a fine message for the target audience of such a game. 

But then, with knowledge of these events, the guys in the Phantom Thieves and the player character stare down her shirt the first chance they get (and I'm pretty sure there's a similar scene where Ryuji and Morgana are trying to sneak a peek up her skirt?), which is just an example of both piss-poor and lazy writing. If any of my female friends were subject to constant sexual objectification, harassment, and attempted to be coerced into sexual acts by an adult in the way that Ann was in the game, I would want to do even better than my best to reassure them that I'm not doing the exact same thing by not trying to staring down their top, etc. And to make matters worse, at this point in the game the player character could be at any point in a romancing questline with Ann or other girls in the game, yet that has no bearing on - and we have no say - over how he acts here. 

And so, the thing is, the game shows a world where this character is oversexualised (and again: high school student), so while a couple of creepy comments might get the point across, the game is relentless in its thirst for Ann, and it's poor handling of her character. Trying to not spoil too much, the key takeaway from Ann's Palace is that she's just kind of going to own the situation she's in, because there's not much else she herself can do. Dealing with the situation gives her confidence moving forwards. But this is never shown to be the case: by the time the second palace rolls around, Ann has been forced into posing nude with none of the Phantom Thieves backing her up when she objects, and she is constantly subject to creepy comments throughout the game by NPC's, but doesn't shut any of them down, and the other members of the Phantom Thieves don't back her up there, either. 

There's also the fact that even after her Palace, the entire game is then spent with her still in a skimpy, skintight leather cat suit:

Now, look, there's owning your looks, and then there's this -- I really think that in the context of the story of the game and Ann's Palace, her outfit should have changed after what transpires.

To show that the Persona team aren't just a bunch of horn dogs themselves and can put together an outfit which both shows a character owning their look and actually showing some restraint, look no further than Makoto:

The other scene which made me uncomfortable is when we first meet up with Ryuji in Shinjuku: 

He is subject to the unwanted advances of a couple of pretty stereotypically portrayed gay NPC's.

At that time of night kids aren't supposed to be out on the streets, so you know what, I'll stretch my imagination a bit and give benefit of the doubt that they think he's an adult, and that they aren't harassing a kid, but I myself - the player and the player character - know that Ryuji is in high school, so it's undeniably a bit creepy. 

And then they straight up drag him away, to which Ryuji pleads for your help, which you just...ignore? You have no option to help your friend here, and your time in Shinjuku is cut short -- you are forced, by the game, to not do anything about this, and head back home to sleep.

For a game about rebellion and for standing up for what is right, this is explicitly tone deaf, and to make matters even more egregious, if memory serves, this might be the only example of gay people even turning up in the game. I might be wrong there as it's admittedly been a few years since I played the game, but even if they aren't, there are so few gay characters in the game that these creeps immediately float to the top. I've heard Persona 4 might be distasteful in a similar way in its handling of gay characters, but again, I can't comment there as I haven't played the game. 

[Jonnas]

Hey, come on, come on! Check out this Chinese ad!

I cannot even understand what they were going for here, but I can confidently say this is the lowest point ever for the character.

11 hours ago, Glen-i said:

That's Bomberman: Act Zero. Yes, that Bomberman. No, I have no idea what drugs they were smoking when they thought a gritty reboot of all things was a good idea!

The video tells the whole story, but the short version is "Let's chase trends we barely understand!" several times over.

(Also, if you see any part of this video, check out 12:40 to 13:35, because that shit's hilarious)

Edited March 13, 2022 by Jonnas

[darksnowman]

2 hours ago, Glen-i said:

But NBA Street V3 just clashes horribly with Mario-style characters. They look so ridiculously out of place.

Like, if you thought New Donk City in Odyssey was a weird clash, then NBA Street V3 takes the cake! It was definitely a desperation move on Nintendo's part thanks to the GC's poor reception. EA definitely got the better end of that deal, mind. No-one bought a GameCube to play those versions, let's face it.

Pretty sure no one'd claim these games were system sellers but the Mario, Luigi and Princess inclusion was a nice incentive for people who had more than one console to get the GC edition that year, and equally for GC-only owners who wouldn't normally have tried these games to have a go at what EA was doing.

Just shows how high Mario's alleged low point is.  

[Glen-i]

54 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

Hey, come on, come on! Check out this Chinese ad!

I cannot even understand what they were going for here, but I can confidently say this is the lowest point ever for the character.

It didn't start off well, but then that happened and I immediately starting folding into myself out of pure cringe.

That's real bad!

1 hour ago, Julius said:

*Informative Persona 5 post*

This is one of two reasons why I can't deal with Persona, despite being an RPG fan. Because of that, you kinda develop a tolerance for this kind of stuff and roll with it.

But somewhere, there is a line, and Persona constantly crosses it by contradicting the messages it tries to put forward for cheap fanservice. And it's really blatant. And I just know it would impact my enjoyment.

A good comparison is the Persona and Fire Emblem spin off, Tokyo Mirage Sessions, which is not without it's problems, but is so much more restrained, especially the western version. My theory is that Nintendo may have been reining in the fanservice that the Persona influence might have had. Remember, the western version edits some costumes to be less revealing and flat out replaces the typical swimsuit outfits with something far more tasteful and better looking really.

Boy, a lot of guys really outed their misogynistic views when they started complaining about that! Meanwhile, I immediately chose that outfit for Tsubasa and Ellie and never looked back!

So yeah, I think Atlus really needs a third party to give them a heads up whenever things get a bit too much.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Glen-i

[Dcubed]

Some fantastic examples already, keep it up guys!

Here's one more to add to the list... it should be familiar to anyone that frequents Jim Sterling's videos...

Castlevania Pachinko: Erotic Violence!

 

Because Konami is Konami, and Konami is The Worst

4 hours ago, Jonnas said:

Hey, come on, come on! Check out this Chinese ad!

I cannot even understand what they were going for here, but I can confidently say this is the lowest point ever for the character.

Oh fucking hell! I completely forgot about this one! It doesn't make a lick of sense regarding ANYTHING involving Terry 

[Rummy]

On 13/03/2022 at 1:50 AM, Glen-i said:

This thread was inspired by a conversation I had with @Dcubed that went real bad, real fast. I'm still not entirely sure how it happened, but...

We started talking about the "low points" of different series in the gaming business. The moments when it was pretty universal that "this is not a good look".

For clarification's sake, I'm not talking about games you personally didn't enjoy. So, using myself as an example, I can't go out claiming Breath of the Wild is Zelda's low point, because that's just dumb. It's a crazy success!

Here's an actual example that might come to mind for most people.

Yeah... That's what I mean. When it was released, this movie was a commercial flop that barely resembled the source material, and at that time, I'd say it was Mario's lowest point, and it stayed that way for quite some time. It damn well discouraged Nintendo from trying another movie for decades, that's for sure!

Now I certainly haven't watched it for a decade(s), but c'mon maan - Bob Hoskins! John Luigiamo! Dennis...Hopper?! It's a pretty weird/trippy film thinking back, super surreal(but ykno...how else you gonna do Mario?) but if you think about it - is it anything really much worse/awesome than something like Total Recall?

[Glen-i]

57 minutes ago, Rummy said:

Now I certainly haven't watched it for a decade(s), but c'mon maan - Bob Hoskins! John Luigiamo! Dennis...Hopper?! It's a pretty weird/trippy film thinking back, super surreal(but ykno...how else you gonna do Mario?) but if you think about it - is it anything really much worse/awesome than something like Total Recall?

Hasn't Bob Hopkins come out and said that he regrets acting in that movie?

Says it all, really.

[Dcubed]

34 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

Hasn't Bob Hopkins come out and said that he regrets acting in that movie?

Says it all, really.

Yes he did! He outright said that it was the biggest regret in his career.

From The Guardian...

Quote

What is the worst job you've done?
Super Mario Brothers.

What has been your biggest disappointment?
Super Mario Brothers.

If you could edit your past, what would you change?
I wouldn't do Super Mario Brothers.

Speaking of which, The Guardian actually did a great retrospective article that covers the movie's troubled production, including some interviews with various actors and production staff involved in the SMB movie.  It's really interesting and well worth a read! Really helps elucidate just how this disasterpiece came to be!

Edited March 14, 2022 by Dcubed

[Rummy]

4 hours ago, Glen-i said:

Hasn't Bob Hopkins come out and said that he regrets acting in that movie?

Says it all, really.

Well yeah, Hoskins is a legend. Poor fucker probably had no idea what he was getting into, tbh - but can you deny he gave it a good crack??

BESIDES I DONT REGRET IT SO IT DOESNT MATTER

[darksnowman]

32 minutes ago, Rummy said:

Well yeah, Hoskins is a legend.

Yup, given the choice I reckon the (vast?) majority of fans would side with Chris Pratt being Mario's low point because it's definitely not Bob Hoskins.

[Glen-i]

23 minutes ago, darksnowman said:

Yup, given the choice I reckon the (vast?) majority of fans would side with Chris Pratt being Mario's low point because it's definitely not Bob Hoskins.

Or Charles Martinet. It's gonna be so weird now that Mario has had an established voice for over 25 years.

See, as much as I don't care for the casting choice for the Mario movie, there's no denying that it will be far more tonally accurate then the live action one. Whether it's any good is a different matter, but I don't see it flopping as hard.

I mean, it's safe to say that at least Bowser will, you know, look like Bowser.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Glen-i

[Jonnas]

Remember that time when a solid game called Mega Man 10 came out, and it was to be followed by an ambitious project called Mega Man Universe, and also Mega Man Legends 3 was finally going to get made?

And then it all got cancelled? And Marvel vs Capcom 3 came out and no sign whatsoever of the Blue Bomber? And then Keiji Inafune left? And then-

Capcom's mascot sure went through a rough patch during that time.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Jonnas

[Glen-i]

7 hours ago, Jonnas said:

Remember that time when a solid game called Mega Man 10 came out, and it was to be followed by an ambitious project called Mega Man Universe, and also Mega Man Legends 3 was finally going to get made?

And then it all got cancelled? And Marvel vs Capcom 3 came out and no sign whatsoever of the Blue Bomber? And then Keiji Inafune left? And then-

Capcom's mascot sure went through a rough patch during that time.

You see, any other time, and Bad Box Art Mega Man would've been seen as the silly joke that it was meant to be. Poor timing all round.

[Dcubed]

Oh that's a good one @Jonnas.  Perfect example of a well intentioned joke going horribly wrong with the worst possible timing 

Actually, come to think of it... Street Fighter vs Tekken might well be a series low point for both Street Fighter AND Tekken! The on-disc DLC scandal? The Gem system that basically kickstarted the beginning of full-on F2P Pay 2 Win mechanics in full priced retail games? The confusopoly of pre-order exclusive Gem packs? That game had it all!

Oh, wait... you mean to say that there WAS actually a mobile version of this game!? Oh...

Oh no... well, at least its glorified F2P mechanics now make sense at least!

It was so bad that its reception actively caused the cancellation of Tekken vs Street Fighter! That's... a pretty impressive CV right there.

Also entering the ring for each respective series is Street Fighter: The Movie: The Game, of which Matt Mcmuscles has already done a lovely documentary video on that I highly recommend a watch... (Did you know that there are actually TWO entierly seperate SF:TM:TG games by two seperate developers? Did you also know that SF:TM:TG was actually originally supposed to be the real Street Fighter 3? No? Then watch this lovely video!)

... and for Tekken? Hmm... Well there's Tekken Advance, that's a pretty grim time... Or I could go for Tekken mobile... Nah, screw it, let's go for the American-made 2009 Tekken: The Movie!

Dragonball Evolution called, it wants its gimmick back

Sitting at an ASTOUNDING 0% on Rotten Tomatoes, this movie actually manages to legitimately compete for the title of Worst Reviewed Movie Of All Time; sitting right up there on the shit-list with the likes of Jaws: The Revenge and Police Academy 4.  That's pretty dang impressive by any measure.  Even frigging Dragonball Evolution, a direct analogue to Tekken 2009 that even came out around the same time funnily enough, managed a whopping 15% on Rotten Tomatoes; just to give a frame of reference for how much this steaming pile is truly steaming.   When even the head of the Tekken series actively dunks on a Tekken movie? You know you've done something real bad!

Still, I think that there's something truly poetic about Street Fighter vs Tekken somehow being the low-point for not just Street Fighter, not just Tekken, but for Mega Man as well.  When you're managing to drag THREE series through the dirt and out of the other end of the planet? Yeah, I think it's hard to argue that this isn't a true low-point 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Dcubed

[Rummy]

23 hours ago, darksnowman said:

Yup, given the choice I reckon the (vast?) majority of fans would side with Chris Pratt being Mario's low point because it's definitely not Bob Hoskins.

I'm getting so out of the game these days I had forgotten this was even a thing that was happening(I saw da memes) - it's a very curious casting yeah, but then again - what was Bob Hoskins, a very london lad iirc, doing playing an Italian plumber in New York in the first place??

[Jonnas]

12 hours ago, Dcubed said:

Nah, screw it, let's go for the American-made 2009 Tekken: The Movie!

I had erased this film from my memory. That's a good call, I remember even the most neutrally-written Wikipedia article couldn't prevent making it sound like the hollow shell that it was.

On that note, you also reminded me of another thing that I had excised from my memory

I dare you find any similarity to the source material.

[Ashley]

Tempted to rename the thread "times when games were either very horny or tuned into films"

[darksnowman]

23 hours ago, Rummy said:

I'm getting so out of the game these days I had forgotten this was even a thing that was happening(I saw da memes) - it's a very curious casting yeah, but then again - what was Bob Hoskins, a very london lad iirc, doing playing an Italian plumber in New York in the first place??

Not only were films a different sort of beast at that time (as you mentioned above with the likes of Total Recall), Mario was still a ways from being distilled down to the clean, sterile template we... enjoy... nowadays so the casting didn't seem as outlandish as it might do through today's prism.

At the moment I'm leaning towards Mario's low point being Mario Tennis 64 because of the way he calls every shot that sails past him as out.  Come on, Mario. Keep it classy--the line judges have got this.