Progression % indicators

[bob]

Often when playing a game, i'll wonder how far I am through it. Not just if the game is crap, or dragging the plot, but also if it is great, i'll be curious how far through I am. Obviously Googling how far you are is a bit of a minefield, as you can easily spoil yourself if you're not careful. So you are left trying to work it out based on the number of collectables, trophies, etc.

I recently started up Uncharted (the first one), and it tells you how far you are through the story as a percentage every time you save, which I really like. I believe some people however, would prefer not to know - they would rather stay in the dark right up until the final credits. 

It's weird though, because in other forms of media, you usually know exactly how much longer you have to go. Books for example, it's very hard to hide how much further you have left, and I think that it tends to add to the excitement (or disappointment) as you near the end of a book and feel the pages dwindling. With films, it's usually as easy as pausing it, or checking the clock, but that usually only really happens when you aren't enjoying the film, and want it to end quickly.

 

Anyway, do you prefer to know exactly how far you are into a game? Or would you prefer for it to remain a mystery?

[Glen-i]

It's an interesting dilemma, isn't it?

Me personally? I don't particularly like having a % indicating main plot progression (assuming the plot is an important aspect of the game). It's hard to hide twists or surprises when you're aware of how much game is left. TV Tropes refers to that as "Interface Spoiler".

Spoiler

This is a more recent example of this kind of thing. The surprise of Dharkon coming along to mess things up after you first beat Galeem is kinda lost if you were thorough in rescuing ever playable fighter.

Anyone who noticed that around half of the roster were unaccounted for probably saw that one coming.

Now full 100% completion progression? Yeah, I definitely want that.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Glen-i

[Ronnie]

Not too fussed either way, it's nice to know how much is vaguely left but not necessary. Usually when I'm wanting to know how much is left it's because I'm really enjoying the game and don't want it to finish.

Conversely though, I wish World of Light would have had one, I would have stopped 9 and a half hours before the end.

[Cube]

Games also have different ways of tracking progress. With Breath of the Wild, you can have all shrines completed, all quests completed...and the tracking bar will say something like 15% because all the Korok seeds are part of that bar. 

Some games have achievements with chapter numbers so you can look at those to see how many chapters to expect. Sometimes the achievements have spoilers in so they're all "hidden" achievements so you can't see which ones relate to chapters.

I think knowing the progress can help bad endings, but can also make good endings have less of an impact. Some games can end abruptly, so knowing that its approaching can help the disappointment. Some games can have a section that feels like the climax but still carry on. Sometimes this can be great (in which, knowing ahead of time would diminish it slightly), but other times it can just really drag on instead, which is where knowing ahead will help. 

[Glen-i]

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

Conversely though, I wish World of Light would have had one, I would have stopped 9 and a half hours before the end.

It did though?

Spoiler

 

[Sheikah]

I don't really like progression indicators. Most of the time they feel inaccurate because they're not actually reflective of how much of the game is really left. Also I think I'm the sort of person that doesn't want to know how close I am to the end.

It's not like with a film where you can see precisely how much you've watched and how much is left.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Sheikah

[Dcubed]

It really depends.  In some cases, they can spoil how far you are into a game and subsequently ruin surprises.  While in others, they can be incredibly useful (like in Metroid Fusion/Zero Mission; where after you complete the game, you get given item completion percentages on the map screen for each area, making it much easier to keep track of where you need to go to get 100% item completion).

And then there are cases where it they are used for pure evil operant conditioning; like with Theatrhythm's DLC shop, which turns song purchases into a skinner box metagame that rewards you with completion percentage numbers as you buy each song; encouraging the loss of self control in vulnerable people to buy songs that they would otherwise not want.  Most modern AAA open world games also use progression indicators for evil operant conditioning purposes too; in order to force vulnerable people to keep playing their crappy game for longer and to buy more DLC/lootboxes.

Like anything in game design, it is a tool that can be used for good as well as evil.  It all depends on how it is used.

[Rummy]

On 18/01/2022 at 9:01 AM, bob said:

Often when playing a game, i'll wonder how far I am through it. Not just if the game is crap, or dragging the plot, but also if it is great, i'll be curious how far through I am. Obviously Googling how far you are is a bit of a minefield, as you can easily spoil yourself if you're not careful. So you are left trying to work it out based on the number of collectables, trophies, etc.

I recently started up Uncharted (the first one), and it tells you how far you are through the story as a percentage every time you save, which I really like. I believe some people however, would prefer not to know - they would rather stay in the dark right up until the final credits. 

It's weird though, because in other forms of media, you usually know exactly how much longer you have to go. Books for example, it's very hard to hide how much further you have left, and I think that it tends to add to the excitement (or disappointment) as you near the end of a book and feel the pages dwindling. With films, it's usually as easy as pausing it, or checking the clock, but that usually only really happens when you aren't enjoying the film, and want it to end quickly.

 

Anyway, do you prefer to know exactly how far you are into a game? Or would you prefer for it to remain a mystery?

So you're that kinda dickhead checking his phone for the time in the cinema halfway through the film, eh?

Well so am I and I am surprised your post seems to imply you don't know about or don't use the rather-exactly-what-you-want-for-this-mostly-spoiler-free-affair sort of site. I've used it for years to gauge value and longevity in committing to/buying games but it can also be useful for when you're wondering...just how many MORE deus ex machina's could possibly BE in this plot?!?

 

https://howlongtobeat.com

 

[darksnowman]

I don't see any harm in knowing how much further you have to go in a game, be that from a review stating it's a 15-hour experience (or however many hours) and being able to estimate from that, or an in-game progression indicator.  

Here's some reactions:
Super Mario World doesn't top out at 100? Have you checked? We're certain on this? Why wouldn't they want a nice round 100 on complete save files?
DKC: An exclamation mark after the level name means you've got all the bonus rooms in that level? That's handy! Hold on, I've done that and now my file says 101%? How is that even possible? This isn't how my teacher said percentages work.  
DKC 2: Same again with the exclamation marks and now DK coins? Got it. But now I've finished with 102%...!!  
DKC 3: I know how this works. 103% here we come.  Then the January/ February magazines said HARDR will get you 104% and TUFST 105!!!
Well, that's Breath of the Wild done. I must've put 70-odd hours into that. What a monster of a Zelda game. Wait, what? I didn't even finish it 30%??!! Fook that.

 

[bob]

1 hour ago, darksnowman said:

I don't see any harm in knowing how much further you have to go in a game, be that from a review stating it's a 15-hour experience (or however many hours) and being able to estimate from that, or an in-game progression indicator.  

Here's some reactions:
Super Mario World doesn't top out at 100? Have you checked? We're certain on this? Why wouldn't they want a nice round 100 on complete save files?
DKC: An exclamation mark after the level name means you've got all the bonus rooms in that level? That's handy! Hold on, I've done that and now my file says 101%? How is that even possible? This isn't how my teacher said percentages work.  
DKC 2: Same again with the exclamation marks and now DK coins? Got it. But now I've finished with 102%...!!  
DKC 3: I know how this works. 103% here we come.  Then the January/ February magazines said HARDR will get you 104% and TUFST 105!!!
Well, that's Breath of the Wild done. I must've put 70-odd hours into that. What a monster of a Zelda game. Wait, what? I didn't even finish it 30%??!! Fook that.

 

Yeah, BOTW is a great example of a progression indicator that is completely broken because they tied it to Koroks. I mean, it may be accurate for the vanishingly small percentage of people who'll try and get all 900, but for the majority, it's just useless.

[Julius]

For me, it really depends on the game and what it's trying to achieve. 

Sandbox collect-a-thon or a LEGO game? A progression % indicator is great for knowing how deep into the completionist rabbit hole I really have gone. Imagine having an Easter Egg hunt without knowing how many there actually are, that's exactly how villains are born. 

Something story focused, like The Last of Us? I'd rather they not be included, as they kind of take away from my immersion (I turn trophies off specifically in a first playthrough for games where I want to fully immerse myself) and can ruin how much of the game is left to go, as others have said. 

And then you get the really messy examples, like Breath of the Wild, which is a cocktail of both. A big "no thanks" to that. 

For me, I use How Long To Beat as already mentioned by @Rummy to get a rough idea of how much time, at a minimum, I need to invest to complete a critical path, main story-only playthrough. And it really is only a rough idea: there are some games where I've gone down the crit path and finished the game in 60% of the time that's on HLTB, whereas others I ended up running a bit over. I don't pay attention to anything except the main story time that they put out purely because, if I'm enjoying a game enough to want to check out way more than just the critical path, then I don't mind losing a bunch of hours to it. These are typically games where I go for all of the side quests, 100%, or Platinums (such as your Yakuza games, Mario games, and JRPG's) or want to explore more of the world (such as in a From Software game - I couldn't care less how long it takes me to get through, not to mention the HLTB times are going to be wonky at best for skill-based games). 

It's tough, but I don't think you can really get a fair idea of a typical playthrough length for most games until the game is actually released to try and nail down, at best, an average playtime of a range of skilled players like HLTB does. The development team aren't going to be positioned in a way that they can fairly play through the game and assess this, I'd say the same would go for play testers who are focused on looking for issues with the game, and the only alternative I could think of would be hiring a bunch of play testers with the aim of them playing the game through in their own style and timing that...but there wouldn't be much to gain, really, from the financial investment that would require. 

So, I think for now, HLTB is probably the best resource to use if you do want a rough idea of how long a game might take to play through.

Something I've actually been thinking about lately is that if Xbox, with Game Pass, might have something to gain purely from a player experience perspective by picking up a site like HLTB, because as a service, any way to improve retention is of benefit to them, kind of similar to how Amazon picked up IMDb and BoxOfficeMojo to make Prime Video more feature rich. There are a whole lot of games on Game Pass to sift through, so having an approximate time to completion when looking at a game on a service like Game Pass would be a smart move, I think. 

[Ronnie]

41 minutes ago, bob said:

Yeah, BOTW is a great example of a progression indicator that is completely broken because they tied it to Koroks. I mean, it may be accurate for the vanishingly small percentage of people who'll try and get all 900, but for the majority, it's just useless.

I'd say a percentage completion stat goes against the very design of BOTW, so I don't think it's to be taken too seriously in that game. Their 'reward' for getting all 900 Korok seeds was pretty much poking fun at that fact.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Ronnie

[darksnowman]

16 minutes ago, Julius said:

Something I've actually been thinking about lately is that if Xbox, with Game Pass, might have something to gain purely from a player experience perspective by picking up a site like HLTB, because as a service, any way to improve retention is of benefit to them, kind of similar to how Amazon picked up IMDb and BoxOfficeMojo to make Prime Video more feature rich. There are a whole lot of games on Game Pass to sift through, so having an approximate time to completion when looking at a game on a service like Game Pass would be a smart move, I think. 

I beg to differ. Nintendo should incorporate this on the eShop. Xbox doesn't have to get everything.  

12 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

I'd say a percentage completion stat goes against the very design of BOTW, so I don't think it's to be taken too seriously in that game. Their 'reward' for getting all 900 Korok seeds was pretty much poking fun at that fact.

This thread isn't about how worth it 100% completion rewards are though.  

[Sheikah]

In terms of progression/rewards, can we all agree that replacing Mew with a certificate in the western releases of Pokémon Blue/Red was bullshit of the highest order.

[Dcubed]

2 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

In terms of progression/rewards, can we all agree that replacing Mew with a certificate in the western releases of Pokémon Blue/Red was bullshit of the highest order.

???

Mew is not obtainable via legitmate means in the original R/G/B at all; neither in the western or Japanese versions.  Only way is by attending a real-life event, or by using glitches.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Dcubed

[Sheikah]

???
Mew is not obtainable via legitmate means in the original R/G/B at all; neither in the western or Japanese versions.  Only way is by attending a real-life event, or by using glitches.

Really? For all this time I believed that the Japanese versions gave you Mew for getting all 150, instead of a certificate. You saying that's smelly chat?

[Dcubed]

1 minute ago, Sheikah said:

2 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

???
Mew is not obtainable via legitmate means in the original R/G/B at all; neither in the western or Japanese versions.  Only way is by attending a real-life event, or by using glitches.

Really? For all this time I believed that the Japanese versions gave you Mew for getting all 150, instead of a certificate. You saying that's smelly chat?

That's not just smelly chat, that's stinky Garbador chat lol.

[Sheikah]

I'm really just pretending to be bitter here. The racket I had going on in Mew trades due to having a gameshark back in the day was something to behold.

[darksnowman]

2 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

3 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

???
Mew is not obtainable via legitmate means in the original R/G/B at all; neither in the western or Japanese versions.  Only way is by attending a real-life event, or by using glitches.

Really? For all this time I believed that the Japanese versions gave you Mew for getting all 150, instead of a certificate. You saying that's smelly chat?

Sounds like he's saying getting it from an official event is not legitimate. To which I say the Shaymin I got from a Toys R Us event is 100% legit and I won't hear it any other way!

[bob]

I'm really just pretending to be bitter here. The racket I had going on in Mew trades due to having a gameshark back in the day was something to behold.

Mew or not, getting a measly certificate as a reward for getting all 150 Pokémon was bullshit.

[darksnowman]

41 minutes ago, bob said:

4 hours ago, Sheikah said:

I'm really just pretending to be bitter here. The racket I had going on in Mew trades due to having a gameshark back in the day was something to behold.

Mew or not, getting a measly certificate as a reward for getting all 150 Pokémon was bullshit.

Gauging your progress by gym badges and Pokédex completion (seen and owned) was pretty cool though.  

[Glen-i]

Yeah, Pokémon is definitely one of the better ways to have a progress indicator.

[Rummy]

12 hours ago, darksnowman said:

I don't see any harm in knowing how much further you have to go in a game, be that from a review stating it's a 15-hour experience (or however many hours) and being able to estimate from that, or an in-game progression indicator.  

Here's some reactions:
Super Mario World doesn't top out at 100? Have you checked? We're certain on this? Why wouldn't they want a nice round 100 on complete save files?
DKC: An exclamation mark after the level name means you've got all the bonus rooms in that level? That's handy! Hold on, I've done that and now my file says 101%? How is that even possible? This isn't how my teacher said percentages work.  
DKC 2: Same again with the exclamation marks and now DK coins? Got it. But now I've finished with 102%...!!  
DKC 3: I know how this works. 103% here we come.  Then the January/ February magazines said HARDR will get you 104% and TUFST 105!!!
Well, that's Breath of the Wild done. I must've put 70-odd hours into that. What a monster of a Zelda game. Wait, what? I didn't even finish it 30%??!! Fook that.

 

96 always confused me but 

 

7 hours ago, Sheikah said:

In terms of progression/rewards, can we all agree that replacing Mew with a certificate in the western releases of Pokémon Blue/Red was bullshit of the highest order.

yeah tbh an NFT is what it really needed