The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword HD

[Sheikah]

32 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

It’s not difficult, but it does require some knowhow and active circumvention.  If you wanted to cheat, you would have to turn off the cloud saves in order for your failed save file to not overwrite the previous one; then download the previous save file and try again.  That’s all outside of the game itself.

Not true, you don't need to turn the cloud saves off to do this. Cloud saves only backup on PS4/5 overnight when the console is suspended. If you think about it it wouldn't make any sense otherwise, since if the cloud was constantly being updated with whatever was on your console then a corrupted save would also be automatically backed up. That would rather defeat the point of them!

It also doesn't require any technical knowledge at all, all you do is click online storage and go to the save you want then download it. The point is that anyone who wants to cheat by abusing saves can easily do it with cloud saves, just like people could technically do it with autosaves. If anything autosaves make it harder to cheat since a good, regular autosaving system will save right after you do things, so you can't just reload to try again!

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The entire game is designed around getting as much done during a 3 day cycle as possible.  Having permanant saves and decoupling them from The Song of Time completely ruins that, as you can just do things at your own pace now; like every other Zelda game.  You can just reload your save and try again as many times as you want; rendering things like Sakon’s Hideout completely pointless now.

You still only have 3 days, it's not like you have more than 3 days by using autosave. it doesn't decouple the game from the Song of Time either, since you didn't use the Song of Time to suspend your game before (the owl statues don't use the Song of Time). All this does is change the mechanism for which you suspend your game.

In order for progress to be "hard saved" you still need to play the Song of Time. And you still only have the same amount of time to complete a dungeon. All the autosaving does is provide a big QoL boost in that you don't need to leave dungeons to seek out an owl statue if you want to quit playing. And if your game freezes you don't lose progress either. All win win, really.

If Nintendo want they could even force an autosave upon failing certain tasks like Sakon's Hideout - meaning you wouldn't be able to just reload and try again. You have to wonder why Nintendo would force that on people though, given the cyclical nature of the game meaning you can just try again and again anyway, just with a lot of faff involved each time. Again, I'd argue it's overkill to stop playing this way in a single player game.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Sheikah

[Dcubed]

1 hour ago, Sheikah said:

Not true, you don't need to turn the cloud saves off to do this. Cloud saves only backup on PS4/5 overnight when the console is suspended. If you think about it it wouldn't make any sense otherwise, since if the cloud was constantly being updated with whatever was on your console then a corrupted save would also be automatically backed up. That would rather defeat the point of them!

It also doesn't require any technical knowledge at all, all you do is click online storage and go to the save you want then download it. The point is that anyone who wants to cheat by abusing saves can easily do it with cloud saves, just like people could technically do it with autosaves. If anything autosaves make it harder to cheat since a good, regular autosaving system will save right after you do things, so you can't just reload to try again!

Ok, I don’t use cloud saves on PS4 so I didn’t know that’s how Sony do it; but they are the exception in that regard.  Everyone else has instant uploading of cloud saves (including Nintendo on Switch), so it’s Sony’s fault for designing a system so easily abused & manipulated  

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You still only have 3 days, it's not like you have more than 3 days by using autosave. it doesn't decouple the game from the Song of Time either, since you didn't use the Song of Time to suspend your game before (the owl statues don't use the Song of Time). All this does is change the mechanism for which you suspend your game.

In order for progress to be "hard saved" you still need to play the Song of Time. And you still only have the same amount of time to complete a dungeon. All the autosaving does is provide a big QoL boost in that you don't need to leave dungeons to seek out an owl statue if you want to quit playing. And if your game freezes you don't lose progress either. All win win, really.

Song of Time in MM3D doesn’t save your game at all anymore.  It JUST resets the 3-day cycle now; and has nothing to do with saving.  The owl statue saves are the only way to make a permanant save in the 3DS version; and there is no suspend save feature anymore.

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If Nintendo want they could even force an autosave upon failing certain tasks like Sakon's Hideout - meaning you wouldn't be able to just reload and try again. You have to wonder why Nintendo would force that on people though, given the cyclical nature of the game meaning you can just try again and again anyway, just with a lot of faff involved each time. Again, I'd argue it's overkill to stop playing this way in a single player game.

Autosaves in that game would fundamentally change the way the game is designed; that’s the point.  You can’t just throw autosaves onto a game and not expect it to fundamentally break a lot of the intended design.  Sakon’s Hideout, for instance, would lose all of its tension if there was no consequence for failure (in the original N64 version, you have to complete the whole 3-day cycle Anju & Kafei quest from scratch if you choke it at the last moment!).

Edited July 13, 2021 by Dcubed

[Sheikah]

23 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

Ok, I don’t use cloud saves on PS4 so I didn’t know that’s how Sony do it; but they are the exception in that regard.  Everyone else has instant uploading of cloud saves (including Nintendo on Switch), so it’s Sony’s fault for designing a system so easily abused & manipulated  

But as stated if you're backing up automatically then it can overwrite your good save on the cloud with a corrupted one. So Sony's approach works better than Nintendo's if that's truly the case (not surprising, because Nintendo often haven't a clue when it comes to things like this).

The best system will be one that backs up often but also lets you restore several versions back, which I know PCs can do but that certainly isn't a standard by any means, at least not on console. Xbox for instance automatically syncs your save when you exist your game which could be disastrous if your save corrupts.

Either way you can disable automatic cloud saves to achieve exactly what PlayStation consoles do so this is really more of an academic argument; people who want to cheat on other consoles still can with ease.

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Song of Time in MM3D doesn’t save your game at all anymore.  It JUST resets the 3-day cycle now; and has nothing to do with saving.  The owl statue saves are the only way to make a permanant save in the 3DS version; and there is no suspend save feature anymore.

But what difference does it make? You must still play the Song of Time to avoid a game over at the end of 3 days. You don't get any extra time advantage for having auto save. Having auto save means if your game crashes you don't lose your whole 3 day cycle's worth of progression which is a very good thing. It also means you can pause playing partway through a dungeon; you don't need to go out of the dungeon and find an owl statue. There's really no defending the old system in my opinion, I think you are just a bit too averse to change and perhaps a bit too focused on preserving history at the cost of quality of life improvements.

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Autosaves in that game would fundamentally change the way the game is designed; that’s the point.  You can’t just throw autosaves onto a game and not expect it to fundamentally break a lot of the intended design.

You could easily implement autosaves to avoid the issue of people replaying Sakon's Hideout. Upon starting the hideout section the game could create a temporary checkpoint that if you were to load, would load you in after the quest had finished and assumed you failed. The only way to win would be to successfully complete the quest. That quest is easy as tits anyway, so not really a good example to bring up, but almost any example you could come up with about auto save being bad can be overcome without too much thought. Autosave also isn't as easily controlled as you're suggesting, since it saves by itself so it's not like you can easily reload back to the exact point you wanted.

If anything autosave is the means to prevent cheating. In fact many online-only games where there is server-sided saving are constantly "auto saving" to their servers, so any gun you acquire in Destiny for instance cannot be lost if you console breaks. Everything is saved automatically.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Sheikah

[Aneres11]

I think I’m going to pick this up at the weekend. 
I very vaguely remember playing the original and hating it, but I generally hate motion controls so that’s probably why. 
 

My only issue with Zelda games is getting stuck.  

YouTube and guides become my friend and then I always feel like an absolute moron for not realising that’s what you have to do. Too impatient! 

Although sometimes with Zelda it’s not actually that obvious! 

[Cube]

30 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

(in the original N64 version, you have to complete the whole 3-day cycle Anju & Kafei quest from scratch if you choke it at the last moment!).

This is a great example of one of the major flaws of Majora's Mask. 

Making players repeat a large amount of stuff as a "consequence" is just a complete waste of players time. 

But even so, Skyward Sword is fairly linear, you complete a section and move on, there aren't things that you can get wrong and cause you to restart massive sections. An autosave would not alter this in any way. Skyward Sword is not built around it being a challenge to get from one save statue to the next. And if you do die, you are sent to the last bird, but the game remembers what enemies you've defeated and you keep the items you have collected. 

So hopefully this will eliminate the small bits of pointless backtracking by putting you at the start of the room/area instead of bird statue. However, it could just be that the autosave will work exactly the same way as dying and saving manually at a bird statue.

 

Looking back at the small clip, Link isn't doing anything special when the autosave is triggered, other than walking past a bird statue. It's entirely possible that the autosaves only happen when Link walks past a bird statue (which means if you want to turn the game off, it'll still be better to get Link killed before you turn off your game). In this case, the autosave is simply saving you a bit of time from having to talk to the statue.

[Dcubed]

4 minutes ago, Cube said:

This is a great example of one of the major flaws of Majora's Mask. 

Making players repeat a large amount of stuff as a "consequence" is just a complete waste of players time.

That’s not a flaw.  Consequence for failure is what gives a game tension; if there is no risk? There is no reward.

4 minutes ago, Cube said:

But even so, Skyward Sword is fairly linear, you complete a section and move on, there aren't things that you can get wrong and cause you to restart massive sections. An autosave would not alter this in any way. Skyward Sword is not built around it being a challenge to get from one save statue to the next. And if you do die, you are sent to the last bird, but the game remembers what enemies you've defeated and you keep the items you have collected.

You’re right about Skyward Sword, the original version was already pretty forgiving with its save points.  I don’t think that this will be a massive change in this case TBH, but it will certainly have some ramifications for certain dungeons that are longer (at the very least, it’ll have huge ramifications on speed runs for this game; as they abuse death warps like crazy!).

4 minutes ago, Cube said:

Looking back at the small clip, Link isn't doing anything special when the autosave is triggered, other than walking past a bird statue. It's entirely possible that the autosaves only happen when Link walks past a bird statue (which means if you want to turn the game off, it'll still be better to get Link killed before you turn off your game). In this case, the autosave is simply saving you a bit of time from having to talk to the statue.

I really doubt that’s the case (it would be a totally pointless addition in that case).  It probably just saves every so often at set intervals (like every 10 mins or so) and reloading an autosave will most likely plonk you back into the last “room” that you entered when the game was autosaved.

[Cube]

14 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

if there is no risk? There is no reward.

No risk, no reward is one of those phrases which is complete and utter nonsense. There's lots of enjoyment to get out of games, even when the only "risk" is starting the current section. Or even in games like BioShock, where there's literally zero consequence to dying other than walking possibly one room away and continuing the same fight with the enemies still damaged from your previous fight. Or Halo in co-op, where respawning while one person is alive is really quick.

[Ronnie]

Another nice little change. I really want to play this and Twilight Princess but the only things putting me off are the lengthy opening tutorials. 

[Dcubed]

Lol! Link just blanks him and nopes out of the door 

[Glen-i]

Just wading in to say that if you really wanted to maintain that 3-day cycle in Majora's Mask 3D, you could always just limit yourself to only saving at the Clock Town Owl Statue at the start of every cycle. That's what I did. The option is there.

I also find it really weird that this is something that bothers you, seeing as the Owl Statue suspend save was already a QoL change because it didn't exist in the Japanese N64 version. Why is that change OK, but the 3DS hard saves not?

[Dcubed]

57 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

Just wading in to say that if you really wanted to maintain that 3-day cycle in Majora's Mask 3D, you could always just limit yourself to only saving at the Clock Town Owl Statue at the start of every cycle. That's what I did. The option is there.

I also find it really weird that this is something that bothers you, seeing as the Owl Statue suspend save was already a QoL change because it didn't exist in the Japanese N64 version. Why is that change OK, but the 3DS hard saves not?

Because that was a temporary save; it didn’t enable or encourage save scumming.

[Sheikah]

Because that was a temporary save; it didn’t enable or encourage save scumming.

But why do you care how other people choose to play their single player games?

What did you think about the optional cheats in Banjo Kazooie?

[Dcubed]

18 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

But why do you care how other people choose to play their single player games?

What did you think about the optional cheats in Banjo Kazooie?

They’re awesome! Was pissed off when they blocked them in the XBLA version of BK & BT.

This isn’t the same thing though.  Changing the save system fundamentally changes how the original game works; and in the case of Majora’s Mask? It breaks it completely (unless you purposely do a self limiting challenge; which isn’t an appropriate substitute for the original game design).

Edited July 13, 2021 by Dcubed

[Sheikah]

25 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

They’re awesome! Was pissed off when they blocked them in the XBLA version of BK & BT.

This isn’t the same thing though.  Changing the save system fundamentally changes how the original game works; and in the case of Majora’s Mask? It breaks it completely (unless you purposely do a self limiting challenge; which isn’t an appropriate substitute for the original game design).

But you just said to Glen-i that you were ok with the owl statues but not auto save because of the potential for save scumming. Save scumming though is something people have to actively do to cheat, just like entering cheats onto a sandcastle floor, so why do you only approve of cheats?

If not save scumming then there is no disadvantage to auto save whatsoever, it is purely a QoL improvement.

[darksnowman]

Absolutely the worst invocation of Donkey Kong Country that I've seen in my life. 

If Rare really must be brought into this you's could at least use Dinosaur Planet.

[Glen-i]

58 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

They’re awesome! Was pissed off when they blocked them in the XBLA version of BK & BT.

This isn’t the same thing though.  Changing the save system fundamentally changes how the original game works; and in the case of Majora’s Mask? It breaks it completely (unless you purposely do a self limiting challenge; which isn’t an appropriate substitute for the original game design).

You're getting dangerously close to dictating how games should be played. Don't turn into the Competitive Smash Melee community, that's a dark (souls) path you don't want to go down.

There's an argument for this kind of thing when multiplayer is involved, but who cares when someone else is cheating? It doesn't affect your gameplay in any way!

As an aside, how about added auto-save features to games that actually makes them harder? Because that's what happened with PMD: Rescue Team DX.

[Dcubed]

38 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

But you just said to Glen-i that you were ok with the owl statues but not auto save because of the potential for save scumming. Save scumming though is something people have to actively do to cheat, just like entering cheats onto a sandcastle floor, so why do you only approve of cheats?

If not save scumming then there is no disadvantage to auto save whatsoever, it is purely a QoL improvement.

That’s because save scumming becomes the default; you have to self-impose the challenge of the original game in MM3D, since permanant saves are now the default.  They’ve changed the whole dynamic of the Anju Kafei quest with the changes made to the save system; now, if you want to experience the same tension of the original, you have to purposely self-impose the challenge to do everything perfectly within the one cycle.

There is no option within the game itself to experience the original gameplay; you have to self-impose that yourself now.  As a result, the game is now significantly easier than the original version unless you self-impose the challenge.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Dcubed

[Glen-i]

1 minute ago, Dcubed said:

That’s because save scumming becomes the default; you have to self-impose the challenge of the original game in MM3D, since permanant saves are now the default.  They’ve changed the whole dynamic of the Anju Kafei quest with the changes made to the save system; now, if you want to experience the same tension of the original, you have to purposely self-impose the challenge to do everything perfectly within the one cycle.

Then self-impose it?

Who gives a toss if someone else doesn't do it?

Also, you totally save-scum through Ace Attorney games because you don't want to have to go through the same thing again if you get a Game Over! (Everyone does it, don't lie!) How is this any different?

[Dcubed]

11 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

As an aside, how about added auto-save features to games that actually makes them harder? Because that's what happened with PMD: Rescue Team DX.

That’s an interesting case, particularly since it actively blocks off an unintentional loophole with the original game.  In that case, it’s not so much that they’re changing the original intended experience, but rather they doubled down on it and blocked methods of cheating the original game’s punishment for failure.

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Then self-impose it?

Who gives a toss if someone else doesn't do it?

Also, you totally save-scum through Ace Attorney games because you don't want to have to go through the same thing again if you get a Game Over! (Everyone does it, don't lie!) How is this any different?

 

It’s not that people can cheat that bothers me, it’s that you can’t get the original gameplay experience from the N64 version without taking additional measures outside of the game itself.

If MM3D had an option to play it the original way, in addition to the altered save system, I wouldn’t mind at all then.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Dcubed

[Sheikah]

10 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

That’s because save scumming becomes the default; you have to self-impose the challenge of the original game in MM3D, since permanant saves are now the default.  They’ve changed the whole dynamic of the Anju Kafei quest with the changes made to the save system; now, if you want to experience the same tension of the original, you have to purposely self-impose the challenge to do everything perfectly within the one cycle.

But permanent saves themselves are not the problem. The problem you noted above was save scumming - the act of loading up prior saves to undo a negative consequence or replay a segment with the foresight you learned. That is no different to how entering cheats is an action you have to willingly perform.

I don't follow your point about the Kafei quest, how does this play out any differently with autosaves in effect, if you don't save scum (actively choose to cheat)?

How is not save scumming any different from not entering cheats? It feels like your argument is the same one that elitists present as a reason why there shouldn't be easy modes in certain games to broaden accessibility, even though such a mode could be entirely ignored by said people if they choose. I don't really understand the fixation on how other people want to play their own single player games?

Edited July 13, 2021 by Sheikah

[Glen-i]

11 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

It’s not that people can cheat that bothers me, it’s that you can’t get the original gameplay experience from the N64 version without taking additional measures outside of the game itself.

If MM3D had an option to play it the original way, in addition to the altered save system, I wouldn’t mind at all then.

It's 5 seconds to run over to the Owl Statue after a cycle reset, hardly any effort at all!

[Dcubed]

1 minute ago, Glen-i said:

It's 5 seconds to run over to the Owl Statue after a cycle reset, hardly any effort at all!

It’s not the same when it’s self-imposed.  You just don’t get that same level of tension that you would otherwise have when it’s part of the game itself.  Like, imagine if in Metroid Zero Mission, there was no Hard Mode and you’d have to self-impose your own higher difficulty by limiting what pickups you find? It just wouldn’t be the same.

And it’s the fact that the new save system is the default (with no in-game option to play it in the original way) that really bothers me (never mind the litany of other changes I really dislike about MM3D anyway).

[Glen-i]

5 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

Like, imagine if in Metroid Zero Mission, there was no Hard Mode and you’d have to self-impose your own higher difficulty by limiting what pickups you find? It just wouldn’t be the same.

But people have been doing that sort of thing in Metroid long before Zero Mission.

I don't buy that you lose tension with a self-imposed challenge. Many self-imposed challenges are done precisely to heighten the tension in a game.

Pokémon is a fine example of this. Completely easy-going normally, but apply some Nuzlocke rules to yourself and every battle suddenly becomes terrifying.

If there's a reasonable and easy way to maintain something from the original game, then put the effort in if you want it so bad.

[Sheikah]

It’s not the same when it’s self-imposed.  You just don’t get that same level of tension that you would otherwise have when it’s part of the game itself.

Like, imagine if in Metroid Zero Mission, there was no Hard Mode and you’d have to self-impose your own higher difficulty by limiting what pickups you find? It just wouldn’t be the same.And it’s the fact that the new save system is the default (with no in-game option to play it in the original way) that really bothers me (never mind the litany of other changes I really dislike about MM3D anyway).

But what tension is that? In the original you always have the Ocarina in your pocket which will save your game and reset the cycle. There is no danger that you will run out of time and lose everything you did since the start of Day 1 since you always have the means to reset/save on you.

The real tension is in running out of time to do the things you want to do, like if you're partway through a dungeon and feel you won't complete it in time and will lose your progress. That same tension still exists with auto save, with no changes!

 In fact the most tension ever in this game was playing with the original save system on the Gamecube disc port of the game which regularly locked up, meaning you could lose hours of play. Again, auto save solves this problem!

[Mokong]

My copy just arrived in the post, a day early, wohoooo.

My amiibo is going to be delayed though, ordered that through GameStop, got email from them earlier.

Game ordered through Smyths, they didn't have the amiibo