Manning Up

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

A thread about what it means to be male.

 

Do you believe in the traditional role a man is meant to play in society? ie be strong, less or unemotional, provide for the family etc.

 

Or do you believe that's outdated BS?

 

Or a mix between the two?

 

Or make no generalisation whatsoever?

 

Basically seeking an open dialogue on this subject.

[somme]

It's all bollocks. The sooner we breed out violent, "manly" men the better.

[Fierce_LiNk]

The problem I have with being "strong" or "less emotional" is that why do you just have to display one characteristic? Why do you have to be either strong or emotional?

 

I find categorising people to be bizarre because we're basically limiting them by doing so. "Oh, this person is a girly girl", "he's a man's man", "he's tough", etc. How boring. At least that's how I see it. What exactly is tough anyway?

 

I think a person can be lots of things. Most of the men I know aren't just one thing, they're a mixture of several qualities. Funny, approachable, moody, optimistic at times, pessimistic at others, tired, etc. I think @Eenuh would say I'm all of those things!

 

I don't necessarily think traditional is better. You could play devil's advocate and suggest that the traditional model for men was for them to oppress women. For them to be kept in the house all day long whilst men forged careers or went out drinking, etc.

[Iun]

I very strongly hate the phrase "Man Up".

 

To me, the speaker might as well be saying "Conform to my perception of what constitutes a man!" And that could quite be anything in the context - be less emotional; open a door for me; pay for everything; punch that other man; have more/less sex. It's such a nebulous phrase, but it's still incredibly offensive. I don't believe in rigid gender roles, so if you enforce or try to enforce them on me, it just makes me angry.

 

I don't necessarily think traditional is better. You could play devil's advocate and suggest that the traditional model for men was for them to oppress women. For them to be kept in the house all day long whilst men forged careers or went out drinking, etc.

 

Exactly this. You want me to "Man Up" you better "Be more ladylike" and submit.

[Sméagol]

You should not be thinking about what it means to be a man, you should be thinking about what it means to be you.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

You should not be thinking about what it means to be a man, you should be thinking about what it means to be you.

 

But I am a man, so therefore it is 'me'?

 

I've been watching a few YouTube vids on this subject, I think most of them are anti-feminazis who feel that the 'manosphere' is being downtrodden. I hear some good points and obviously some scary ones.

 

To some degree, I believe that the traditional set-up of what a man should be came about naturally, as we can see from most other male species in the animal kingdom - and not chiefly about subjugating women.

 

From my (limited) life experience it would seem some women also appreciate an 'old fashioned' man - in the sense that, when I was younger and I played the shy and coy 'good guy', that behaviour seemed like 'chick repellent' - I think a lot can attest to the phenomenon of women being attracted to the bad guy. Sadly, the more I became a bit more stoic and less emotional I found myself getting more successful with ladies.

 

In an ideal world I want to believe these generalisations don't apply but (heterosexual) men are still forced to, for example, approach women first to show interest which is obviously unfair and I would imagine many still feel it's a mans duty to pay for dates etc.

 

I'm just spitballing here.

[MoogleViper]

It comes down to sexism, and how it affects both genders. A lot of people view sexism as an issue that is one gender oppressing another. But it affects everyone. Take the gender stereotypes imposed on children. Go into any children's store and look at the toys. The boys toys will be things like lego and mechano and computer games. The girls toys will be a wall of pink made up of dolls, toy kitchens etc. Then we wonder why few women are going into STEM careers, contributing to the gender pay gap. If a young boy wants to play with a doll adults will immediately dissuade him from that. Tell him that playing with dolls (i.e. being caring and passionate) is for girls. When a boy cries we tell him to "man up" and that "men don't cry". And then we wonder why there's so little support groups for men (e.g. male victims of domestic violence) and why suicide is the biggest killer of young men, and why men constitute 95% of the prison population, why the vast majority of child custody cases are awarded to the mother. We tell young boys that to impress women he needs to "be a man", be strong and confident and take charge, and then wonder why there are so many cases of sexual assault and rape where the man didn't even realise that it was rape.

 

I think most of these issues come from childhood. We treat children in ways that we wouldn't dream of treating adults.

 

 

I'm not a man, I'm a human with a penis.

[Shorty]

Go into any children's store and look at the toys. The boys toys will be things like lego and mechano and computer games. The girls toys will be a wall of pink made up of dolls, toy kitchens etc.

So you don't think there's anything hardwired into males to lean towards action figures, and females to lean towards dolls? If you just made a store where all the walls were white and all the toys were mixed together, and brought in 500 boys and 500 girls who had never had a toy before, you don't think the results would lean towards fairly traditional choices anyway?

 

I'm just wondering here, I don't have an opinion either way.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

So you don't think there's anything hardwired into males to lean towards action figures, and females to lean towards dolls? If you just made a store where all the walls were white and all the toys were mixed together, and brought in 500 boys and 500 girls who had never had a toy before, you don't think the results would lean towards fairly traditional choices anyway?

 

I'm just wondering here, I don't have an opinion either way.

 

I think there is [something hardwired] and I think it stems from the main thing that makes men and women different - testosterone.

 

My gfs 2 year old nephew almost instinctively loves playing with tractors and cars and loves pointing out big machinery when we're out. We've taken him to toy shops where he could easily have chosen a doll with a dress as opposed to the traditional boys toys and he chooses them all the time. And coming from a country with a heightened sex equality than most, I can't say his been lured into liking boys toys.

[MoogleViper]

So you don't think there's anything hardwired into males to lean towards action figures, and females to lean towards dolls? If you just made a store where all the walls were white and all the toys were mixed together, and brought in 500 boys and 500 girls who had never had a toy before, you don't think the results would lean towards fairly traditional choices anyway?

 

I'm just wondering here, I don't have an opinion either way.

 

I think there is. We are still animals at a basic level, and are genetically programmed to have one gender hunt and the other gender be the primary care-giver.

 

But the issue is when we don't allow children to break out of these norms. Go to any kids party and all the boys will be running around playing. The girls will be in pretty dresses and as soon as they try and join in some mother will interject with "sweetie, don't ruin your dress". When a boy picks up a doll an ignorant father usually swoops in in case touching a doll will "mess him up" for later life. We don't have gender sections in adult shops (except for when it makes sense, such as clothes as we have different shapes). If you go into PC World there isn't a blue mens section and a pink womens section. So why is there a girls and boys section in toy shops? If a boy wants to play with a doll why does he have to wander into the pink girl's section to do it? If a girl wants to play with a car why does it have to be pink and say "barbie" on it? If we get rid of the gender roles then yes I imagine more girls will still choose dolls, and boys will choose action figures. But the ones that don't want to choose that way won't be forced to.

[EEVILMURRAY]

why the vast majority of child custody cases are awarded to the mother.

I would say that's down more to do with the mother being the primary caregiver (and usually the kids preference) over the father who is interacted less because he's off working to provide.

 

And that arrangement is normally down to the mother having a greater attachment to the lil git she's been fapping about for nine months. Unless she's a real career freak, then you may have the father stepping in.

[The Cape]

So you don't think there's anything hardwired into males to lean towards action figures, and females to lean towards dolls? If you just made a store where all the walls were white and all the toys were mixed together, and brought in 500 boys and 500 girls who had never had a toy before, you don't think the results would lean towards fairly traditional choices anyway?

 

I'm just wondering here, I don't have an opinion either way.

 

I think that for this experiment to work, you would need 500 boys and girls who have never been in contact with anyone. Who have not even learned any language. Also I believe you would need them all to enter alone and separately. I'm saying all this because you don't want societies standards play a role here. We could argue why our society is like that, and I'm inclined to think that is because the female is the one who carries the children before they are born. Anyway, going back to the experiment: assuming perfect isolation, would girls and boys choose the same? I think they would at an early age. If there are any genetic differences I have the impression that they show up later (as in teenagers). But then again, my knowledge about genetics is close to zero, so that's just my impression.

[somme]

Before 1900 colours were generally not gender specific and around 1920 pink was for boys and blue for girls. So, that when it comes to toys, is not hardwired but forced upon kids.

 

Myself, as a child, I liked to play with anything and everything: hero turtles, trains, barbies, mud, video games, board games dressing up (as both genders).

 

And I'm a pretty well-adjusted, non violent person who simply cannot fathom why both genders are not treated equally. It's 2016 for crying out loud.

[Grazza]

I'm not a fan of gender stereotypes at all, but I do think men and women are bound to feel different in certain ways. I wouldn't go as far as applying this to toys (because I think there is societal pressure in that regard), but I'm certainly not very emotional. I must have gone about 25 years without crying, for example. I hadn't been bottling it up - it's just that not much upsets me. When some bad stuff started happening a few years ago I cried buckets.

 

Men are bound to want certain things from women, and women are bound to want certain things from men. We shouldn't blame either gender for that. However, over the past few years I have been getting the very strong feeling that society has no regard for men's needs, and offers no help for those who don't live up its demands.

 

I've noticed, King V, that you are very astute about the importance of testosterone. It's a vital ingredient of men's health and drive. The general impression I get (and I'm sure this is backed up by studies) is that testosterone levels are falling worldwide - we see this in the fertility rates.

 

So why is this not seen as a huge problem? Why is the Andropause not considered real? Why are men not offered HRT on the NHS (heck, at least make it easy to pay for)? Why is there not a Minster for Men, and why do MPs laugh when you suggest bringing up men's problems in Parliament?

 

The other day I saw a story about a doctor who suggested the NHS offers women testosterone pills! If they want it, fine, but what a sick society that thinks of offering it to women when men are offered nothing. If you go to your doctor, you'll be told it's "Normal", and basically to bugger off.

 

What I see is men becoming more biologically feminine, thus suffering poor health, low happiness and (ultimately) not being able to live up to what society needs them for. I'm not saying it's good to pump yourself full of hormones (if you do that, your body will never be able to function as well on its own), but you'd think they'd at least look at taking some of the oestrogen out of the environment. Whether this is accidental or intentional, I cannot say, but it bothers me that it's not tackled.

[bob]

I'm not a fan of gender stereotypes at all, but I do think men and women are bound to feel different in certain ways. I wouldn't go as far as applying this to toys (because I think there is societal pressure in that regard), but I'm certainly not very emotional. I must have gone about 25 years without crying, for example. I hadn't been bottling it up - it's just that not much upsets me. When some bad stuff started happening a few years ago I cried buckets.

 

Men are bound to want certain things from women, and women are bound to want certain things from men. We shouldn't blame either gender for that. However, over the past few years I have been getting the very strong feeling that society has no regard for men's needs, and offers no help for those who don't live up its demands.

 

I've noticed, King V, that you are very astute about the importance of testosterone. It's a vital ingredient of men's health and drive. The general impression I get (and I'm sure this is backed up by studies) is that testosterone levels are falling worldwide - we see this in the fertility rates.

 

So why is this not seen as a huge problem? Why is the Andropause not considered real? Why are men not offered HRT on the NHS (heck, at least make it easy to pay for)? Why is there not a Minster for Men, and why do MPs laugh when you suggest bringing up men's problems in Parliament?

 

The other day I saw a story about a doctor who suggested the NHS offers women testosterone pills! If they want it, fine, but what a sick society that thinks of offering it to women when men are offered nothing. If you go to your doctor, you'll be told it's "Normal", and basically to bugger off.

 

What I see is men becoming more biologically feminine, thus suffering poor health, low happiness and (ultimately) not being able to live up to what society needs them for. I'm not saying it's good to pump yourself full of hormones (if you do that, your body will never be able to function as well on its own), but you'd think they'd at least look at taking some of the oestrogen out of the environment. Whether this is accidental or intentional, I cannot say, but it bothers me that it's not tackled.

It seems to me that you've made up a problem here, and got very upset about it.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

It seems to me that you've made up a problem here, and got very upset about it.

 

How so? I see valid points in what Grazza says.

 

I'm not a fan of gender stereotypes at all, but I do think men and women are bound to feel different in certain ways. I wouldn't go as far as applying this to toys (because I think there is societal pressure in that regard), but I'm certainly not very emotional. I must have gone about 25 years without crying, for example. I hadn't been bottling it up - it's just that not much upsets me. When some bad stuff started happening a few years ago I cried buckets.

 

Men are bound to want certain things from women, and women are bound to want certain things from men. We shouldn't blame either gender for that. However, over the past few years I have been getting the very strong feeling that society has no regard for men's needs, and offers no help for those who don't live up its demands.

 

I've noticed, King V, that you are very astute about the importance of testosterone. It's a vital ingredient of men's health and drive. The general impression I get (and I'm sure this is backed up by studies) is that testosterone levels are falling worldwide - we see this in the fertility rates.

 

So why is this not seen as a huge problem? Why is the Andropause not considered real? Why are men not offered HRT on the NHS (heck, at least make it easy to pay for)? Why is there not a Minster for Men, and why do MPs laugh when you suggest bringing up men's problems in Parliament?

 

The other day I saw a story about a doctor who suggested the NHS offers women testosterone pills! If they want it, fine, but what a sick society that thinks of offering it to women when men are offered nothing. If you go to your doctor, you'll be told it's "Normal", and basically to bugger off.

 

What I see is men becoming more biologically feminine, thus suffering poor health, low happiness and (ultimately) not being able to live up to what society needs them for. I'm not saying it's good to pump yourself full of hormones (if you do that, your body will never be able to function as well on its own), but you'd think they'd at least look at taking some of the oestrogen out of the environment. Whether this is accidental or intentional, I cannot say, but it bothers me that it's not tackled.

 

Those are fair points - I don't see many treatments for helping men with lowering testosterone while most health professionals will tell you how vital it is for mens health. Most people outside of athletes and health pros don't know how vital it is for all-round health, including maintaining erections, mental health and self confidence etc.

 

I guess its also a double-edged sword of men traditionally not talking about these male-specific issues amongst ourselves.

 

I would say that's down more to do with the mother being the primary caregiver (and usually the kids preference) over the father who is interacted less because he's off working to provide.

 

And that arrangement is normally down to the mother having a greater attachment to the lil git she's been fapping about for nine months. Unless she's a real career freak, then you may have the father stepping in.

 

But that still isn't fair - the father is an equal parent to the child.

[Ashley]

But I am a man, so therefore it is 'me'?

 

I've been watching a few YouTube vids on this subject, I think most of them are anti-feminazis who feel that the 'manosphere' is being downtrodden. I hear some good points and obviously some scary ones.

 

To some degree, I believe that the traditional set-up of what a man should be came about naturally, as we can see from most other male species in the animal kingdom - and not chiefly about subjugating women.

 

From my (limited) life experience it would seem some women also appreciate an 'old fashioned' man - in the sense that, when I was younger and I played the shy and coy 'good guy', that behaviour seemed like 'chick repellent' - I think a lot can attest to the phenomenon of women being attracted to the bad guy. Sadly, the more I became a bit more stoic and less emotional I found myself getting more successful with ladies.

 

In an ideal world I want to believe these generalisations don't apply but (heterosexual) men are still forced to, for example, approach women first to show interest which is obviously unfair and I would imagine many still feel it's a mans duty to pay for dates etc.

 

I'm just spitballing here.

 

You've got to be careful basing any ideas on your perceived reasons for being rejected. Without sounding rude, there could be many you're not aware of. And given it happened when you were younger, it could be down to reckless youthful mistakes as much as anything else. We're more inclined to seek trouble (or less averse to it I suppose) when we're younger and that could extend to the kind of partner you pick. Some people grow out of it, some people don't, some people actually do prefer more 'challenging' people, but I'd be hesitant to draw too strong a link between being rejected in your teens in favour of someone else that you perceive to be more stereotypically manly because you don't know the reasons you were rejected (even if they tell you, few people will be completely honest) and you also don't know what that person is like in private. Much like Kanye, they may enjoy a pinkie in the bum

 

Why are men not offered HRT on the NHS (heck, at least make it easy to pay for)?

 

The reasoning is because the immunity is transferred through sex so its less of a man's issue and more of a gay man's issue and it has been challenged (to little success). You can still get it privately.

 

Anyway, to the topic as a whole and as others have said I think the notion that someone needs to "man up", or someone (of either gender) needs to behave in such a way because it is the societal expectation is dangerous. It becomes a vicious circle whereby if you don't fit to those norms you're not allowed to express it because expressing it defies those norms. Each generation has the ability to question and critique the previous generation (as time passes and new thinking naturally derives from younger generations) and I think it's important we continue to critique this notion of what a man/woman should be because its predicated largely on fear. Fear of standing out. Fear of being wrong. Fear of failure. And fuck that.

 

And for the point about toys, there's a fair bit of research about the gendering of toys and initiatives if you're interested (Let Toys Be Toys being the main one).

 

But that still isn't fair - the father is an equal parent to the child.

 

Only biologically, which is why cases should be looked at individually.

 

I don't know, maybe its easier for me to question as I had no strong male role models growing up. The men in my family are drunks, druggies or convicted criminals (one or more of those characteristics depending on the man) except for my grandfather on my mother's side who isn't even biologically related to me (and he's quite co-dependant anyway and the older he gets the more he becomes a miserable git). Whereas the women in my family have always been more independent, more resourceful and more a source of inspiration.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Ashley

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

 

Only biologically, which is why cases should be looked at individually.

 

I don't know, maybe its easier for me to question as I had no strong male role models growing up. The men in my family are drunks, druggies or convicted criminals (one or more of those characteristics depending on the man) except for my grandfather on my mother's side who isn't even biologically related to me (and he's quite co-dependant anyway and the older he gets the more he becomes a miserable git). Whereas the women in my family have always been more independent, more resourceful and more a source of inspiration.

 

But that's surely sexism against men on your part.

 

I didn't grow up with strong male figures either, so with my aim to hopefully be a parent some day and be a good one at that, I would be pissed if a divorce etc meant unfair conditions on my part.

 

The system at the moment is not right and definitely needs to be corrected.

Edited October 26, 2016 by King_V

[Ashley]

But that's surely sexism against men on your part.

 

I didn't grow up with strong male figures either, so with my aim to hopefully be a parent some day and be a good one at that, I would be pissed if a divorce meant etc meant unfair conditions on my part.

 

The system at the moment is not right and definitely needs to be corrected.

 

Which part are you calling sexist?

 

My first point was to merely say that it's only biologically that a male is 50% of a child's parentage. The actual raising and care for a child varies and this should be factored in when making a decision.

 

If its about my family, it's not that I'm a misandrist but rather just pointing out there was no male role model for me growing up and thus that defined my idea of what "being a man" was.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

You've got to be careful basing any ideas on your perceived reasons for being rejected. Without sounding rude, there could be many you're not aware of. And given it happened when you were younger, it could be down to reckless youthful mistakes as much as anything else. We're more inclined to seek trouble (or less averse to it I suppose) when we're younger and that could extend to the kind of partner you pick. Some people grow out of it, some people don't, some people actually do prefer more 'challenging' people, but I'd be hesitant to draw too strong a link between being rejected in your teens in favour of someone else that you perceive to be more stereotypically manly because you don't know the reasons you were rejected (even if they tell you, few people will be completely honest) and you also don't know what that person is like in private. Much like Kanye, they may enjoy a pinkie in the bum

 

 

 

Speaking frankly, I would say the 'bad guy gets the girl' scenario is a general global phenomenon at least at some point in time - and the stereotypical traits of these guys are usually synomous with being a 'traditional' male, or who show the symptoms of having healthy-high levels of testosterone. I would say the animal kingdom replicates this perfectly.

 

Im not entirely oblivious of my own shortcomings and I feel I can state the above statement in a pretty assured way. But of course Im generally speaking. But I'll be willing to bet that the shy and retiring guy isn't as successful as pulling a mate as the stereotypical brash bad boy.

 

A hot topic amongst black Americans is the absent father in the home. Its always been stipulated as the men being the problem, but only until recently has it been asked if its the women who are making bad choices in men and procreating with the more thuggish type of men.

 

Which part are you calling sexist?

 

My first point was to merely say that it's only biologically that a male is 50% of a child's parentage. The actual raising and care for a child varies and this should be factored in when making a decision.

 

If its about my family, it's not that I'm a misandrist but rather just pointing out there was no male role model for me growing up and thus that defined my idea of what "being a man" was.

 

The second point made me think that the experience with men in your life has given you the impression that in general, women are the default 'better parent' - sorry if I misunderstood.

 

 

And I'm a pretty well-adjusted, non violent person who simply cannot fathom why both genders are not treated equally. It's 2016 for crying out loud.

 

I think most men who are not plagued with inferiority complexes and insecurities would always vouch for both sexes being treated equally.

 

An issue I'm repelled by is what I see as men worshipping women, for a lack of a better word "manginas" (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mangina) or "simps" - who put women on this pedestal whereby they are prone to come with a shitty attitude and think all they need to bring to the table are good looks.

 

Opening doors, giving up seats, paying for everything when the woman is working - that 'ladies first' chivalry non-sense is making women superior to men, not equal.

Edited October 26, 2016 by King_V
Automerged Doublepost

[Grazza]

It seems to me that you've made up a problem here, and got very upset about it.

 

It seems to me that you may not be qualified to talk about it.

 

You've got to be careful basing any ideas on your perceived reasons for being rejected.

 

Well, he is right that if you give off a feminine vibe, you simply won't be able to have that heterosexual male-female chemistry. Not that I'm an advocate of acting macho or anything, but at times when you are less masculine (biologically - it fluctuates), you will not be able to hold a woman's attention. When you are more masculine, on the other hand, she will laugh at all your jokes even if they're not funny.

 

The reasoning is because the immunity is transferred through sex so its less of a man's issue and more of a gay man's issue and it has been challenged (to little success). You can still get it privately.

 

Do you mean some sort of HIV treatment? I was talking about Hormone Replacement Therapy, ie. the understanding that women's hormones drop massively and it affects their wellbeing (and so we help them); compared to men's hormones dropping massively from age 30-40 and beyond, and us not helping them.

[Ashley]

Speaking frankly, I would say the 'bad guy gets the girl' scenario is a general global phenomenon at least at some point in time - and the stereotypical traits of these guys are usually synomous with being a 'traditional' male, or who show the symptoms of having healthy-high levels of testosterone. I would say the animal kingdom replicates this perfectly.

 

Im not entirely oblivious of my own shortcomings and I feel I can state the above statement in a pretty assured way. But of course Im generally speaking. But I'll be willing to bet that the shy and retiring guy isn't as successful as pulling a mate as the stereotypical brash bad boy.

 

A hot topic amongst black Americans is the absent father in the home. Its always been stipulated as the men being the problem, but only until recently has it been asked if its the women who are making bad choices in men and procreating with the more thuggish type of men.

 

The second point made me think that the experience with men in your life has given you the impression that in general, women are the default 'better parent' - sorry if I misunderstood.

 

I think most men who are not plagued with inferiority complexes and insecurities would always vouch for both sexes being treated equally.

 

An issue I'm repelled by is what I see as men worshipping women, for a lack of a better word "manginas" (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mangina) or "simps" - who put women on this pedestal whereby they are prone to come with a shitty attitude and think all they need to bring to the table are good looks.

 

Opening doors, giving up seats, paying for everything when the woman is working - that 'ladies first' chivalry non-sense is making women superior to men, not equal.

 

Well yeah we're of course speaking generally so its murky, but how many men do you think have chosen the hot but bad/dull woman over a better one? And how much of what you're chalking down to simply testosterone could be confidence being the attractive quality? Or what about experimentation? What if that woman that rejected the nice guy did so just once in her life, but that nice guy then buys into the narrative that women always choose 'bad' men. Never mind the problems the self-proclaimed nice guy narrative has (research is out there, its too late for me to bother to find it).

 

Women have certainly been the better (and certainly more present) parent in my upbringing and that of my parents, but I wouldn't begin to suggest that is the case for all people.

 

I honestly don't know how you could say this though: "I think most men who are not plagued with inferiority complexes and insecurities would always vouch for both sexes being treated equally." Women are not treated equally. It's what, 2060-something before women are projected to be paid equally in this country? Women are statistically more likely to be raped, abused or attacked. Women are less likely to be in high-power positions at work and women in these positions are either asked if they're neglecting their family or asked why they didn't have one (if they didn't have children). These issues, and others, do affect men too of course, but not to the same degree and some very rarely. The sexes are not treated equally and it's not just down to a perception of men with inferiority complex. There is clear empirical evidence that women are not treated equally, even in societies such as ours that claim to be equal (much less in societies that don't even give the pretence of being equal).

 

Why does men worshipping women repel you? It's just some men doing it and they may get a sexual kick out of it and its consentual. To make (although I know its not you that made it) a portmanteau using the word "vagina" to describe something you says repels you shows how even language is used to lessen women. The implication being vaginas (or having one) makes you weaker, less strong and in this case less manly. From a purely biological point of view a vagina goes through a hell of a lot more than a penis does (even if you don't give birth to a child, simply having check ups and things like UTIs mean vaginas are put under more strain than a penis). But why is it that word is used to defame someone?

 

Women are by no means anywhere close to being superior to men. Just nowhere. But from a purely academic point of view - what if they were? Would that be a bad thing? I'm aware that changing perceptions of the genders as well as other factors (such as changing reliance on certain industries) has resulted in increasing issues for men, particularly young men, (primarily mental health issues) and they absolutely should be addressed, but would women being superior to men after centuries of being seen as inferior be such a bad thing? I open doors, give up seats (at least for the elderly) and have a lassaiz-faire approach to payment with all people regardless of gender (the only gendered one I do adhere to is giving up a seat to a pregnant woman because she's got a tiny human making her uncomfortable), although there have been times I've offered my seat to a pregnant woman and she's said she's okay.

 

Ultimately I feel like these are issues you are facing in your life and seem to be suggesting it is more wide spread in society than I believe it is and I don't want to sound condescending and I'm happy to be proven wrong, but in my academic research on this topic there is little merit for this idea that men are becoming weaker than women. The perception of what a man is/should be is (rightfully) changing. One could argue it is becoming more 'feminine' (one then risks making stereotypes about femininity in an attempt to critique stereotypes about masculinity). I would suspect it would be very hard to find credible research that suggests women are becoming superior to men as a whole. Maybe aspects of society, but as a whole?

 

 

Do you mean some sort of HIV treatment? I was talking about Hormone Replacement Therapy, ie. the understanding that women's hormones drop massively and it affects their wellbeing (and so we help them); compared to men's hormones dropping massively from age 30-40 and beyond, and us not helping them.

 

Sorry, I think I'm thinking of HPV. Bloody acronyms!

Edited October 26, 2016 by Ashley

[EEVILMURRAY]

But that still isn't fair - the father is an equal parent to the child.

 

I never said it was fair, and unless you want to King Solomon each kid involved in a separation - one side will always lose out.

[somme]

 

Well, he is right that if you give off a feminine vibe, you simply won't be able to have that heterosexual male-female chemistry. Not that I'm an advocate of acting macho or anything, but at times when you are less masculine (biologically - it fluctuates), you will not be able to hold a woman's attention. When you are more masculine, on the other hand, she will laugh at all your jokes even if they're not funny.

 

So you know all women do you?

[Iun]

I would say that's down more to do with the mother being the primary caregiver (and usually the kids preference) over the father who is interacted less because he's off working to provide.

 

And that arrangement is normally down to the mother having a greater attachment to the lil git she's been fapping about for nine months. Unless she's a real career freak, then you may have the father stepping in.

 

Here's the thing - when my parents divorced, I made it clear that I wanted to be with my father because my mother was an alcoholic, had stolen from us both and was quite violent (wow, that was a painful sentence to type ) but the social worker assigned to the case was insistent that "Mother Knows Best". The result of that was needless court battles and us eventually moving out of the family home one night when mum went crazy attacking us.

 

...rambling, but the fact is, the court system and support system automatically assumes that the mother is the primary caregiver, which is not always the case. Nor is it ideal for the mother to be so in some circumstances.