The Russian Doping Scandal

[Fierce_LiNk]

I had to make a thread on this subject as the more I read about it, the more fascinated, shocked, appalled and amazed I became.

 

In short:

 

- Russia had a very poor Winter Olympics at Vancouver in 2010. They achieved only 15 medals, which was branded as "very abysmal" at the time.

 

- Russia seeked to improve the profile of all sports in Russia, particularly at the Olympic level.

 

- It's claimed that it began making positive drug tests disappear from its anti-doping labs in late 2011. Before the Winter Olympics in Sochi, Russia created a clean, frozen urine storage bank.

 

- Russia's security service, the FSB, worked in a building next to the Sochi laboratory, swapping positive urine samples for clean negative ones through a "mouse hole", adding table salt to make them weigh the same

 

- A key FSB agent had access to the Sochi anti-doping laboratory, disguised as a sewage and plumbing contractor. But, in swapping urine samples, the FSB agents left miniscule tool marks on the bottles - later found by McLaren's investigators using a microscope

 

- The Moscow lab destroyed 8,000 samples it held dated prior to 10 September 2014.

 

For those of you who want the full facts, here's a fantastic image which illustrates Russia's involvement (more information can be found here:

 

[Charlie]

This is such a huge scandal. I'm quite against banning Russia outright from the Olympics as it would effect athletes who are clean (and there must be some in Russia) but the question is how do you police it? How will we ever know which Russian athletes are clean?

 

Have all the medals Russian athletes won in Sochi and London been wiped off?

[Sheikah]

I think nothing less than a total ban of Russia at the next Olympics would be sufficient...for the scandal to have been actually orchestrated by the government is ludicrous. Russia needs to be shamed for such a shocking practice and although harsh on those that were clean, those athletes would start looking towards their country and its so often dubious practices.

[bob]

How did Russia do at Sochi? Did it work?

[Fierce_LiNk]

How did Russia do at Sochi? Did it work?

 

 

I think that speaks for itself.

 

I completely understand that there will be clean athletes representing Russia, but...there's no distinguishable way of identifying who has and who hasn't been compromised. The right thing for Russia to do would be to withdraw all of their athletes, but I can't see them doing that. I really do think an outright ban is the only way forward. This was such an intricate and institutionalised operation that there really isn't any other choice. It's shameful and is completely against the spirit with which these Olympics shoud be hosted and attended.

 

The fallout from this is going to be huge.

[Nicktendo]

A total ban would be completely ridiculous. There are doubtless hundreds of athletes, who have dedicated their whole lives to their chosen field and are clean.

 

Despite evidence of state supported doping, this is not the way to go forward. Placing all Russian athletes under constant independent testing for the duration of the games, given the accusations, would allow those clean athletes to freely participate without incriminating or punishing them. This, surely, given the resources available to the IOC is a viable option.

 

A blanket ban is just political point scoring and yet more evidence that the West is only looking for regime change in Russia and has absolutely no intention of cooperating with the current government, irrespective of their policies. Clean athletes have nothing to answer for and are being unfairly and harshly treated.

 

Throughout history the home nation has performed exceptionally well at the Olympic Games. Britain took an unexpected third in 2012. China dominated 2008. Was that because of doping? No, it's because the government invests in sport in order to achieve a good result years in advance of the games taking place. That medal table proves absolutely nothing, even more so when one considers that Russia often finishes in the top 3 at the Winter Olympics.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Nicktendo

[Pestneb]

A total ban would be completely ridiculous. There are doubtless hundreds of athletes, who have dedicated their whole lives to their chosen field and are clean.

 

Despite evidence of state supported doping, this is not the way to go forward. Placing all Russian athletes under constant independent testing for the duration of the games, given the accusations, would allow those clean athletes to freely participate without incriminating or punishing them. This, surely, given the resources available to the IOC is a viable option.

 

A blanket ban is just political point scoring and yet more evidence that the West is only looking for regime change in Russia and has absolutely no intention of cooperating with the current government, irrespective of their policies. Clean athletes have nothing to answer for and are being unfairly and harshly treated.

 

Throughout history the home nation has performed exceptionally well at the Olympic Games. Britain took an unexpected third in 2012. China dominated 2008. Was that because of doping? No, it's because the government invests in sport in order to achieve a good result years in advance of the games taking place. That medal table proves absolutely nothing, even more so when one considers that Russia often finishes in the top 3 at the Winter Olympics.

 

I'm not 100% sure but I understand they test blood at several stages to eliminate training benefits. Once performance enhancing substances clear the body, the body doesn't (necessarily!) go back to normal, in fact I understand many are against athletes who have been caught from ever competing again, because the benefits they will still have.

 

If Russia have been playing around with these samples then even if Russia is allowed to compete, there will always be questions over the results of russian competitors now. Even a clean athlete getting gold, it won't be viewed the same way because a lot of people will have the idea that it could have been the drugs the athlete had been able to take.

 

It all hinges on the evidence, if Russia did do this then I think they should be kicked out, any Russian athletes still wanting to complete be allowed to do so as independent Olympians. It wouldn't be a good move, but I think it would be the best compromise. obviously each athlete would need to be investigated thoroughly - to give them legitimacy that has been stripped from them by their country. I wouldn't see it as a punishment but as a validation of their future performance, simply letting them in as any other athlete would leave too many lingering doubts.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Pestneb

[Sheikah]

Pestneb is right about this - you don't know for sure who has benefited, just that the government was making sure plenty of their athletes tested clean over many years. In situations like this they really do need to put their foot down by outright banning them from the next event. No doubt many athletes that could go to the Olympics now are still benefiting from what they took, so it seems pretty wrong to me if they can still attend. A cooldown and a long period of intense scrutiny is what Russia really needs.

[Rummy]

Did not understand the depth of this until reading this topic Flink, absolutely astounding! Can't believe it would still happen in a day and age like this! What triggered the suspicions to end up with an investigation etc?

 

This is such a huge scandal. I'm quite against banning Russia outright from the Olympics as it would effect athletes who are clean (and there must be some in Russia) but the question is how do you police it? How will we ever know which Russian athletes are clean?

 

Have all the medals Russian athletes won in Sochi and London been wiped off?

 

It sounds harsh - but most athletes competing in the Olympics, whilst competing for themselves, also compete for their country. I don't think any country would appreciate finding out their top athlete has doped and would feel let down. Sadly I think reversing that to let down the athletes due to such a disgraceful action of their country in this context is just a consequence that must be had. As you say - how would you police it? How would we know? What banner would they compete under? What punishment should there be for this occurring? Who would have any faith in them when they win legitimately? Lots of questions spring to mind that just undermines the legitimate athletes completely anyway.

 

Having said that - I'd agree with Pestneb on letting those who are legitimate and want to compete legitimately to do so under an independent banner if they wished and complied with testing regulations etcetc. The only problem is - how are you likely to compete in something under an independent banner without training support etc from somewhere?

Edited July 20, 2016 by Rummy

[DriftKaiser]

Did anyone saw the Horizon episode about the doping last night? It's on iPlayer now. The bit with people injected themselves with untested drugs and people want to do that gene therapy left me speechless.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Did anyone saw the Horizon episode about the doping last night? It's on iPlayer now. The bit with people injected themselves with untested drugs and people want to do that gene therapy left me speechless.

 

I watched this and completely agree. I only caught it halfway through, so I'm tempted to go right back to the beginning and watch it all the way through.

 

It's a very contentious issue. I think it goes without saying that the vast majority want to see the clean athletes compete at the next Olympics. We all want a clean Olympics with athletes winning medals that they've earned rightfully and without compromise.

 

But, there is no clear way right now of distinguishing which athletes have cheated and which ones haven't. We have no clear idea of who is and isn't complicit and this is far too near to the next Olympics to do that thorough a search.

 

We're looking at it from the perspective of clean athletes of Russia who still want to legitimately compete. Well, what about those athletes who were clean at the last winter Olympics and finished second, third or even didn't even make it onto the podium. Think about the years of regret that they've had, every second they would have spent training thinking that they were failures, when in fact they had been cheated and robbed of their rightful prizes. Getting a medal through the post or however you get it is not going to be anywhere near as right as standing on that podium in front of your family and with the whole world watching, knowing that they earned it.

 

Russia have cheated all of these clean, hardworking athletes who dedicated their lives towards that one moment. The fact that it's such a widespread issue and state sponsored is absolutely disgraceful. It goes against everything the Olympics stands for and it goes against the very nature of competition and of sport. It's unsportsmanlike. They have to be punished in a meaningful way in which they learn their lesson, but also to send out the message that this sort of activity is wrong and will go punished. If that means a blanket ban, then so be it. If there are ways in which the clean athletes can compete as independent Olympians, then let's here more on that.

[Rummy]

Well, what about those athletes who were clean at the last winter Olympics and finished second, third or even didn't even make it onto the podium. Think about the years of regret that they've had, every second they would have spent training thinking that they were failures, when in fact they had been cheated and robbed of their rightful prizes. Getting a medal through the post or however you get it is not going to be anywhere near as right as standing on that podium in front of your family and with the whole world watching, knowing that they earned it.

 

I've been watching The Wright Stuff this week and Louise Hazel( :love: ) was on it and they discussed this a bit - and what you've said is pretty much exactly the same as what she said about it all. Another interesting point she raised though, and one that I've heard before - let's consider that fact that this is just one specific and very big case where it's been exposed. Some olympians/athletes within the sports seem to hint you can never truly be sure about who is or isn't doping, because it's been such an issue for such a long time, albeit not necessarily on the same scale.

[Jon]

I think it's a terrible grey area. Look at people like Justing Gatlin, he was banned and came back. The issue being that with stuff like EPO, it's not a one job thing. Research shows it will boost your performance going forward forever, which defeats the whole point of a ban then, unless it's going to be permanent.

 

This isn't a problem that will go away anytime soon, the dopers will always find new ways to avoid the tests. We've seen so many examples over the years of people who continually passed anti-doping tests but were cheating the whole time. Yes they'll no doubt get caught eventually but by then it's too late for the clean, honest people who competed against them and lost.

 

Is anyone really surprised by this? Russia knew they were hosting Sochi and were damn lucky to be doing so considering they're recent actions, hardly in the vain of the Olympic movement. It really doesn't surprise me that this came from the top, Russia always want to be seen as the best and they damn wanted to make sure on their home soil that they would be, whatever it took.

 

The next step for me is to see the individuals who cheated. At the moment it's just a number but once we can put a face to the name of each cheater, it will probably get even worse.

[Nicktendo]

Is anyone really surprised by this? Russia knew they were hosting Sochi and were damn lucky to be doing so considering their recent actions, hardly in the vain of the Olympic movement. It really doesn't surprise me that this came from the top, Russia always want to be seen as the best and they damn wanted to make sure on their home soil that they would be, whatever it was

 

 

See, I don't understand this. Why were they damn lucky? Should London 2012 have been boycotted because of Libya, Iraq or Afghanistan? What about Atlanta 1996 after the first Gulf War? The Olympics are supposed to be apolitical... Even if Moscow 1980 was boycotted, precisely because of the Soviet's intervention in Afghanistan. It's this kind of hypocrisy that makes me sceptical to the real extent of this doping scandal, or whether it's just another political tool to publicly punish Russia. After all, it's not only them that want to be seen as the best at everything. The USA, China and the U.K. are just as guilty of this.

 

Competing under the international flag is a compromise which makes sense, but if outright banning all athletes is the goal of the international community in the hope that it inspires some kind of political change within Russia, then they are delusional.

 

The West has used this 'dissidents' tactic for around 100 years and it has never worked. All that will happen is those Russian athletes who are outraged with the government will move abroad and be rolled out as a spokesperson in front of the Western media to criticise the regime. They will be forgotten in Russia, forever. Those that don't speak out will stay and get on with it.

[Jon]

See, I don't understand this. Why were they damn lucky? Should London 2012 have been boycotted because of Libya, Iraq or Afghanistan? What about Atlanta 1996 after the first Gulf War? The Olympics are supposed to be apolitical... Even if Moscow 1980 was boycotted, precisely because of the Soviet's intervention in Afghanistan. It's this kind of hypocrisy that makes me sceptical to the real extent of this doping scandal, or whether it's just another political tool to publicly punish Russia. After all, it's not only them that want to be seen as the best at everything. The USA, China and the U.K. are just as guilty of this.

 

Competing under the international flag is a compromise which makes sense, but if outright banning all athletes is the goal of the international community in the hope that it inspires some kind of political change within Russia, then they are delusional.

 

The West has used this 'dissidents' tactic for around 100 years and it has never worked. All that will happen is those Russian athletes who are outraged with the government will move abroad and be rolled out as a spokesperson in front of the Western media to criticise the regime. They will be forgotten in Russia, forever. Those that don't speak out will stay and get on with it.

 

You don't seem to understand how Russia works. You don't simply move to the west and speak out against the regime, Russia doesn't take well to what they clearly see as some form of treason, look at the man who lifted the lid on this whole process. He's in hiding in the US for a reason, he wouldn't have lasted long in Russia.

 

Russia has a fairly terrible human rights record, they've never one to agree on the matter of the UN and Europe. Parts of Russia are flat-out war zones, places such as Dagestan have been on the brink of civil war for years, look at what went on in Crimea, whether you agree with them annexing it or not, it's not exactly something that should be going on in the home of an olympics.

 

I don't understand where the whole feel sorry for Russia comes from, this sort of doping is unprecedented. It's unheard of for a government to lead such a corrupt program that goes so against the pure nature of the very essence of sporting competition.

[Nicktendo]

You don't seem to understand how Russia works. You don't simply move to the west and speak out against the regime, Russia doesn't take well to what they clearly see as some form of treason, look at the man who lifted the lid on this whole process. He's in hiding in the US for a reason, he wouldn't have lasted long.

 

 

Considering I have a Master's degree in Russian history, live in Russia and speak Russian to an advanced level, I find that comment pretty insulting. I don't claim to know how Russia works but I could give you a much better insight than any Western media source. I am by no means a supporter of the regime in Russia, but I understand, in the context of geopolitics why it exists in its current shape. The 90s was a very harsh lesson for everyone in Russia with regards to what happens when they play by Western rules, the poverty and sheer economic destruction went largely unnoticed by the rest of the world.

 

I'm sure Edward Snowdon and Chelsea Manning will attest to the fact that no government has a perfect record. Would Snowden last long in the US?

 

The sense of patriotism and love for their country runs deeper in Russia than anywhere I've ever experienced. Not in the balls to the wall cries of USA, USA sense you see in America, but it's deeply rooted into people's sense of personality, culture and history. There's a reason the 'Russian soul' exists as a concept. Speaking out internationally against Russia amounts to treason in many respects, not that it's right, but it's simply how it's viewed. It's fine to criticise and disagree, but to do it so openly on a global scale is seen as a betrayal.

 

There are many, many issues which exist today in Russia. A number of which are looked at unfavourably by the West, of course, with good reason. But similar problems also exist in the West and it's the level of hypocrisy that infuriates me personally. I have no trouble criticising Russia or the government, but I would prefer to do so from a neutral standpoint, and not one where the mirror of the West is held up against them. That mirror is just as dirty as Russia's.

 

Critics of Russia should stop judging it by Western standards, especially when China is rarely afforded similar treatment. Russia is not, and has never been a traditional 'Western' nation and expecting it to behave like one is like expecting apples to taste like oranges.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Nicktendo

[Jon]

Considering I have a Master's degree in Russian history, live in Russia and speak Russian to an advanced level, I find that comment pretty insulting. I don't claim to know how Russia works but I could give you a much better insight than any Western media source. I am by no means a supporter of the regime in Russia, but I understand, in the context of geopolitics why it exists in its current shape. The 90s was a very harsh lesson for everyone in Russia with regards to what happens when they play by Western rules, the poverty and sheer economic destruction went largely unnoticed by the rest of the world.

 

I'm sure Edward Snowdon and Chelsea Manning will attest to the fact that no government has a perfect record. Would Snowden last long in the US?

 

The sense of patriotism and love for their country runs deeper in Russia than anywhere I've ever experienced. Not in the balls to the wall cries of USA, USA sense you see in America, but it's deeply rooted into people's sense of personality, culture and history. There's a reason the 'Russian soul' exists as a concept. Speaking out internationally against Russia amounts to treason in many respects, not that it's right, but it's simply how it's viewed. It's fine to criticise and disagree, but to do it so openly on a global scale is seen as a betrayal.

 

There are many, many issues which exist today in Russia. A number of which are looked at unfavourably by the West, of course, with good reason. But similar problems also exist in the West and it's the level of hypocrisy that infuriates me personally. I have no trouble criticising Russia or the government, but I would prefer to do so from a neutral standpoint, and not one where the mirror of the West is held up against them. That mirror is just as dirty as Russia's.

 

Critics of Russia should stop judging it by Western standards, especially when China is rarely afforded similar treatment. Russia is not, and has never been a traditional 'Western' nation and expecting it to behave like one is like expecting apples to taste like oranges.

 

Yeah, fair enough, I apologise, didn't mean to make out you have no idea about anything regarding Russia and it's history, you clearly do.

 

I don't have anything against Russia at all, it's a country I've always wanted to visit due to the way it operates so differently from the rest of the typical western world. In regards to your comments about China, I was totally against their awarding of the Olympics, they have blatant disregard for human rights and only got it because because the world seems to be in awe of this rising super power. God knows the Olympic movement is corrupt as hell, it stands for integrity and that's probably the last thing that comes up when it comes to awarding competitions to countries and cities.

 

There's nothing wrong with wanting to be the best but for it to reach this stage is beyond disgraceful. I literally cannot see any mechanism of defence that can be made for Russia in this regard. I feel comfortable saying that I don't think would ever have happened in our country.

[Sheikah]

There are many, many issues which exist today in Russia. A number of which are looked at unfavourably by the West, of course, with good reason. But similar problems also exist in the West and it's the level of hypocrisy that infuriates me personally. I have no trouble criticising Russia or the government, but I would prefer to do so from a neutral standpoint, and not one where the mirror of the West is held up against them. That mirror is just as dirty as Russia's.

 

Critics of Russia should stop judging it by Western standards, especially when China is rarely afforded similar treatment. Russia is not, and has never been a traditional 'Western' nation and expecting it to behave like one is like expecting apples to taste like oranges.

 

If by "don't expect it to have Western values" you mean "don't expect people to be allowed to say what they want without maybe going missing" then yes...yes, I expect every nation on Earth to start having these particular Western values.

[Nicktendo]

Yeah, fair enough, I apologise, didn't mean to make out you have no idea about anything regarding Russia and it's history, you clearly do.

 

 

 

I don't have anything against Russia at all, it's a country I've always wanted to visit due to the way it operates so differently from the rest of the typical western world. In regards to your comments about China, I was totally against their awarding of the Olympics, they have blatant disregard for human rights and only got it because because the world seems to be in awe of this rising super power. God knows the Olympic movement is corrupt as hell, it stands for integrity and that's probably the last thing that comes up when it comes to awarding competitions to countries and cities.

 

 

 

There's nothing wrong with wanting to be the best but for it to reach this stage is beyond disgraceful. I literally cannot see any mechanism of defence that can be made for Russia in this regard. I feel comfortable saying that I don't think would ever have happened in our country.

 

 

I agree completely with what you're saying, particularly about how the U.K. would be very unlikely to get caught up in this sort of mess. I do wonder though, if this had been China and not Russia, would the reaction have been different? I was also against the Beijing Olympics and didn't watch any of it, but the fact that we have many mutual financial interests and that they are more open financially to the West, seems to warp the view of our leaders when it comes to things like human rights. Russia still seems to get treated as the old, uncooperative enemy.

 

Incidentally, despite the shaky start, there seemed to be a lot of international goodwill to Russia following Sochi. The controversy based discussion was mainly around the Olympic ring that didn't light at the ceremony and little else. It seemed to be a success. Two weeks later Crimea happened, and the rest is history.

[Jon]

I agree completely with what you're saying, particularly about how the U.K. would be very unlikely to get caught up in this sort of mess. I do wonder though, if this had been China and not Russia, would the reaction have been different? I was also against the Beijing Olympics and didn't watch any of it, but the fact that we have many mutual financial interests and that they are more open financially to the West, seems to warp the view of our leaders when it comes to things like human rights. Russia still seems to get treated as the old, uncooperative enemy.

 

Incidentally, despite the shaky start, there seemed to be a lot of international goodwill to Russia following Sochi. The controversy based discussion was mainly around the Olympic ring that didn't light at the ceremony and little else. It seemed to be a success. Two weeks later Crimea happened, and the rest is history.

 

Whether it's right or wrong I think that's just a by product of being a western country. Places like China are very much out of sight, out of mind for the western world unless it's fits their agenda for something. The culture of the middle east is completely different our own and so we don't try to compare the two where as you've said we kinda see Russia as a failure because they don't perhaps do things they we believe they should be done.

[Nicktendo]

If by "don't expect it to have Western values" you mean "don't expect people to be allowed to say what they want without maybe going missing" then yes...yes, I expect every nation on Earth to start having these particular Western values.

 

 

 

And how long would I last in the U.S or Britain if I started telling foreigners to go home? How long would I last if I started saying homosexuality is an illness? If I advocated Sharia Law? If I wanted to legalise paedophilia?

 

Freedom of speech does not exist in a politically correct world. Russia has freedom of speech but it's political correctness is very, very different from ours. Or that of Iran. Saudi Arabia. Poland, even. Each country operates within its own legal framework based on history, culture, religion and politics. In Amsterdam I could say I want to shag a 15 year old and it would be perfectly acceptable within the legal framework of that country. In the U.K., U.S., or Russia for that matter, I'd be set on by an angry mob.

 

Peter Hitchens is a mostly a vile human being (imo) but he's lived and worked in Russia and gave a great lecture on it at Oxford University. Video's on YouTube. His views on political correctness as a way of controlling dissent are also fascinating. Just because we have 'a great system' doesn't mean it should fit everyone else.

 

Whether it's right or wrong I think that's just a by product of being a western country. Places like China are very much out of sight, out of mind for the western world unless it's fits their agenda for something. The culture of the middle east is completely different our own and so we don't try to compare the two where as you've said we kinda see Russia as a failure because they don't perhaps do things they we believe they should be done.

 

 

 

I honestly think it comes down to the fact that Russia is a mostly white Christian nation and therefore we are inclined to see them as we see ourselves. Crucially though, they have a very different culture from ours, an incompatible one even, maybe... And therefore we tend to view them more critically than we would than those who are more ethnically different from us.

[Nolan]

The US is still pretty indoctrinated against Russia just from the Cold War. They became our Allies in WWII and rather promptly after enemies. I agree that it's likely we see the people as being more similar to countries from the west, and then when the war was in full effect America went full retard with paranoia. For half a century everyone was taught that at any minute a communist might push the button and blast us to hell, be wary of your neighbors you never know who is a communist in disguise trying to bring down democracy. Joe McCarthy rose to power because he had everyone convinced he could point out communists, which was such a dirty word.

 

Even today the words Communist and Socialist are dirty words to call someone. It's part of why are government is so fucked up, anyone a little left is deemed a raving lunatic socialist that wants to spend all our money on the poor. It's why Trump actually has a scary shot at being president. So now in current days after the Iron Curtain fell and the USSR dissolved any time Russia does something we either scrutinize it as if they are western, or we scaremonger that they're going to be the enemy again and attack.

 

Cheesy and oversimplifying, look at Rocky IV. It's a story about how good hardworking American beats the remorseless steroid using Soviet and somehow wins over the Soviet spectators. Saying they can change, implying change to be more like the West. It's 30 years later but that's still how the US views them.

 

As for China, that's a different can of worms. The US wants all our goods to be dirt cheap, but we also hate that these jobs are relocated out of country for less expensive labor. Hence many people (mostly unions) keeping the buy Made in US products Mantra. It's ironic as all hell, and most people are blind to that fact. They'll go so far as to buy a Chevy (Made in Korea) over a Honda (75% Made in US) because they are then supporting a US company instead of a Foreign company...World trade economy means nothing to these people. As for human rights violations, Americans don't give a shit. As long as the prices stay low and they can play around on their new Samsung(More irony of a Korean phone) or iPhone they don't care that Foxconn workers are prone to suicide. Human life is cheap and we try and pretend it isn't by doing all the things we do, child labor laws maternity leave sick leave 40 hour work week, but we buy almost every product from a country where those things don't matter and the country is doing great because of us.

 

Peoples concern about China now? They're too powerful, it's why China was left out of the Trans Pacific Pact. No one cares about human rights, they just care that Communist China is getting too rich and powerful and want to try and stem the flow of money into their economy because otherwise we'll all be speaking Chinese the way some tell it.

 

That's the general view of the US towards Russia and China. Unfavorable, and uncaring to their issues and wondering why they don't just fix themselves up and be more better like we are. Like telling the depressed person stop being sad.

[Pestneb]

I think if we look at European expansionism and it's effect on the world it explains a fair bit. The US and Australia are basically instances of Europe kicking out the natives because "the natives needed a helping hand". Their cultures are unique and distinct, much as say France and England are, but despite being miles from the continent, their outlooks are largely European. The US is basically like 50 European mini countries... mostly English, with some French influences mixed in and an increasing spanish influence.

South America is a bit less influenced, But it is very strongly influenced by Spain and Portugal. Looking at large swathes of Asian and Africa.. between Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Netherlands... not much of the world hasn't had a influential european presence at some point or another.

 

Russia afaik (@Nicktendo can probably give a more educated insight here) hasn't had that sort of invasive european influence, the influence Europe has had on Russia has been external for the most part, or two way. That's allowed Russia to be it's own nation, which is inevitably going to cause a few "personality" clashes. Again.. China has been invaded a few times.. I understand the east by Japan and at some point Britain held enough of China to do a fair bit of damage to the nations heritage and negotiate taking hong kong. But largely, and mostly in living memory, China has been as sovereign as France has been, maybe a little more. So again, that culture is quite separate from the europe-centric model the rest of the world has been shaped in. With the US being the most influential single nation for most of the last 100 years, and before them I understand the UK, again a europecentric world view has been quite powerful. China and Russia sharing a border are probably the second pole. I know Russia and China are distinct, but in many instances you often find China and Russia standing shoulder to shoulder against the european mind.

 

I think that is the main issue in terms of mistrust. Europe, North America and Australia are pretty homogenous on many things. Corruption, in this instance, is something that is much more of a taboo... I've never had direct contact with corruption, being the briber or being bribed, and I feel a greater level of shame is associated with bribery in the west.

In China and Russia (and this is only from what I have gleaned from at best 3rd hand sources, so I am very open to being corrected by anyone with second/first hand experience to share) I feel corruption, as we would define it in the "west" is different, in many cases it is seen as almost tipping is in the west. I mean, in honesty, if I worked in an office, and I am going to work on 3 complex cases and get all 3 done in a week, I do see the argument that if one case has paid me £100, another £50, and the third paid me nothing (as they weren't obligated to pay a bribe/tip to me) I don't see a huge issue with me dealing with the £100 case first, £50 case second and the £0 case finally.

Obviously I do see the issue with getting a few more paid cases and never quite getting round to dealing with the £0 one!

 

But I think the important thing with our incredulous nature is understanding different cultures are DIFFERENT. I'm not saying what Russia are accused of would be ok for them, I think even within Russia it would be looked down upon, but in their culture perhaps it would be seen more as a cheeky bending of the rules.. out witting the system and earning the results that way.

Ignoring the real implications (their athletes health, clean athletes careers, people not getting the reward for their hardwork etc.) it is kinda amusing.

Thing is, this is real life, not a fictional story, so if they are found to have cheated the system they do need to face the consequences.

Although tbh I don't think they'll care about too much. Get kicked out and they will turn it into a political victory by pointing to the enemy outside who have fabricated these lies to try to shame and hurt Russia... Stay in and obviously they are happy enough... and still get the first point along with "yet we were victorious against the evil west" rhetoric.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Pestneb

[Charlie]

Having said that - I'd agree with Pestneb on letting those who are legitimate and want to compete legitimately to do so under an independent banner if they wished and complied with testing regulations etcetc. The only problem is - how are you likely to compete in something under an independent banner without training support etc from somewhere?

 

Athletes competing under a neutral banner isn't a new concept so I'm sure there'll be a way they can manage it.

[Londragon]

... they don't care that Foxconn workers are prone to suicide.

 

There's a wonderful BBC podcast entitled "More or Less" which investigates statistics. And being from the BBC is impartial. They found that the percentage of workers that commit suicide in Foxconn is half of the general world population. A spate of 5 in a row, which happens in statisics, known as clustering, is very common. To repeat, Foxconn overworking their personnel and causing premature death is erroneous, and was pushed by journalists too lazy to actually fulfill their duty to investigate matters fully. A cluster of events happening close together does not indicate the full story, (look at 2 years ago and the spate of plane crashes, the media would have all had us believe in some supernatural power), unfortunately the way the human mind has evolved, over 2.5 million years, leaves us prone to seeing patterns where none exist. Hence the birth of witches, gods, celestial dictators, superstitions, etc.