Nintendo Quality

[nekunando]

Nintendo build games in ways which are at this point archaic.

I mean, just look at the singleplayer mode in Waverace Blue Storm. Replay the same championship three times over, just adding one lousy new track at the end? That was OK in Waverace 64 when that game competed against the very first Ridge Racer..

 

I get what you're saying but I have absolutely no problem with the structure of the glorious Wave Race: Blue Storm

 

To talk about replaying the 'same' championship three times over is a little unfair considering the actual courses in each tier were different from they were in the previous. The weather conditions also add such variety to each course that they can feel outrageously different whether you play in the sun or in a rain storm!

 

Super game

 

In fact, I actually like the structure of that game and find certain games to be too convoluted. Gran Turismo is probably a perfect example of that, for me.. but then I don't particularly care for that series

 

Mario Kart is certainly different, though, and the structure could do with a shake up, even if it was actually more like Wave Race For instant, 50cc could have your basic courses but higher classes could introduce new hazards, obstacles or even routes through each stage

[Sheikah]

Why can't 2D platformers be "big games"? They require effort and they're lovingly crafted. Why put down an entire genre?

 

They just have loads of them. Loads of the same type of game. Having more diversity is always good.

 

And yeah, it's just the way it is - people have a taste for 'big' open world games and Nintendo, it could be argued, aren't meeting that demand so much with all these smaller scope games. At least they are acknowledging it by making a massive new Zelda.

[Kounan]

Wii U games individually sell well if you compare them to other games but you have to remember that it's mostly a small number of loyal fans all buying the same games. The system has a lot of the same kind of stuff (much of which is 2D platformers), so it's not drawing many new people in (as reflected in system sales). Contrast this to other consoles which typically have more than one or two games for every genre and it's not hard to see why Nintendo struggles to shift the Wii U. With other consoles you have people from all corners picking the systems up for various reasons. Although I will admit it is hard for one developer to float a console by itself.

 

Wii U is the poorest selling Nintendo console on record. We can't all pretend that Nintendo's games are utterly blameless in this situation; games consoles are ultimately for playing games. If they have too many 2D platformers and too few big games that wow people in a new way then that's bound to affect the number of people picking the system up. Yeah, marketing cock up. But come on guys; their game development choices have been pretty shit for a while now.

 

But as someone said, it's not the games that they have that are the problem, it's the lack of some games and that's where I do agree with you, but I still think that marketing was the biggest problem.

[Sheikah]

But as someone said, it's not the games that they have that are the problem, it's the lack of some games and that's where I do agree with you, but I still think that marketing was the biggest problem.

I've always said that Nintendo games have problem with appeal - part of that is not having those games that appeal to other types of gamers, and I think part of it is people getting fed up with Smash 4, NSMB 5 or whatever.

[Kounan]

I've always said that Nintendo games have problem with appeal - part of that is not having those games that appeal to other types of gamers, and I think part of it is people getting fed up with Smash 4, NSMB 5 or whatever.

 

First bold I agree, but again I think that marketing was a big problem (not the only one), because imagine if they have sold at least double what they have sold in the first year, or 15-20mil by now, third party support would have been better. But yes, the result is not enough proper and in time ported third party games which means less console sales at the end.

 

The second bold I am not quite sure, because these games sell really well, so it proves that people do like it and they like it a lot.

[Serebii]

They just have loads of them. Loads of the same type of game. Having more diversity is always good.

 

And yeah, it's just the way it is - people have a taste for 'big' open world games and Nintendo, it could be argued, aren't meeting that demand so much with all these smaller scope games. At least they are acknowledging it by making a massive new Zelda.

Didn't I prove you wrong on this before? The majority of Nintendo's output on Wii U is not a 2D Platformer.

[Jonnas]

On the subject of groundbreaking games, I've seen a point made about how Super Mario Maker is the first major console game of the "game designer" genre. And even compared to other games of that genre (such as RPG Maker), it's a very accessible tool.

 

I know it's a bold statement to say SMM is a groundbreaking game when it's not even the first game of its genre... But then again, Super Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time weren't the first games of their genres, either, just the first ones to do it right, and on consoles.

[dazzybee]

Except, I'm not.

 

I'm pointing out that Nintendo games lack appeal. They are polished and review well, but lack fresh and exciting ideas to appeal to new and existing audiences over extended periods of time. That inability to draw more people in is where sales come in, because they prove that people aren't that into them now. Not like in the 64 days, when the same games were original and exciting and you saw the systems fly. Sure, the Wii U was a marketing cock up, but if it still had games everyone thought were the most exciting and cutting edge, people would be there. The Wii U has no Minecraft, no Blooborne, no Witcher, no League of Legends...nothing like that. Its games just do not have the appeal. They're the games we've seen and played to death and don't advance enough between each iteration, or they're the kind of games that don't have the pulling power they used to.

 

You and Zechs either don't want to connect the dots on this line of thinking or just think it's funny to assume that I am saying the best games in the world are the ones that sell the most. Which of course, I'm not.

 

Except you did equate success, you kept saying about its sales etc but then have fine tuned the argument to talk about appeal. What's funny is that you bring up lack of sales, also bring up it doesn't have these games that have big appeal like Bloodborne and Watcher 3 - what's funny is that mario kart has sold over 5 million copies, on a failing console, more then every copy of blood borne sole on all devices I'd imagine.More than Witcher 3. Smash has sold 10m across 2 devices. Even Mario Maker, just come out has probably sold more than Bloodborne. Splatoon too. How is that not appeal?

 

The problem is the CONSOLE isn't appealing, because it was quite expensive, but cause it was relatively low powered, because it doesn't have much support, many games and the marketing is woeful. Their games - still high quality, still massive appeal.

[Goron_3]

Except you did equate success, you kept saying about its sales etc but then have fine tuned the argument to talk about appeal. What's funny is that you bring up lack of sales, also bring up it doesn't have these games that have big appeal like Bloodborne and Watcher 3 - what's funny is that mario kart has sold over 5 million copies, on a failing console, more then every copy of blood borne sole on all devices I'd imagine.More than Witcher 3. Smash has sold 10m across 2 devices. Even Mario Maker, just come out has probably sold more than Bloodborne. Splatoon too. How is that not appeal?

 

The problem is the CONSOLE isn't appealing, because it was quite expensive, but cause it was relatively low powered, because it doesn't have much support, many games and the marketing is woeful. Their games - still high quality, still massive appeal.

 

Their games definitely have appeal to Nintendo fans, I don't think anyone is denying that. The more pressing issue for me is whether they can still produce system sellers and games that appeal to the wider industry. They've also lost a lot of system sales from fans like myself and others on here who don't think their core software is ambitious enough.

 

It's completely meaningless to post the sales figures as you did. NSMBU sold more than Bloodborne, but which sold more systems? It's great that Nintendo can produce content that has high attach ratio's (although you could make an argument that Bloodborne had much more competition whereas Wii U owners are much more starved of content), but they also need content that's going to inspire us to buy systems.

 

I've purchased the last few Nintendo consoles day 1 but I'm holding off on the NX until they release something special. I buy consoles from software and that's the biggest problem with the Wii U - I've played it all before in some guise or another. That said, their current crop of games is still pretty good and I imagine that hardcore Nintendo fans are relatively satisfied. This was always going to be a transition year compared to say 2013, 2014 etc.

[Jonnas]

NSMBU sold more than Bloodborne, but which sold more systems?

 

A quick note, here, the PS4 sold the majority of its consoles way before Bloodborne was released, or even announced. Just saying, it's weird that people keep saying games like Bloodborne and Witcher 3 sell systems, when they were released less than 8 months ago.

 

Now, GTA V, that is the franchise that sells systems.

[Mr_Master_X2]

Sometimes with this thread, I feel this keeps happening

 

 

:p

 

 

 

Yep. Those are sales that most developers would kill for, and to do it on an install base which is so low is nothing short of phenomenal. 3DS, DS and Wii had great sales of Nintendo titles too

 

...and that's low when you consider a certain games series our Serebii knows and loves. What do they sell...like 12+ million or something...? It's crazy. Yet "Nintendoomed" we are. LOL

[Emasher]

Considering what Nintendo were releasing for the Wii at the same point in it's life-cycle as we're at now with the Wii U, I don't think things are all that bad right now in comparison.

 

Most of what Nintendo published for the Wii in 2009 were GameCube games being sold with updated controls in the form of "New Play Control" and Metroid Prime Trilogy. All we really got that year was New Super Mario Bros. Wii, and Punch-Out. There were also Wii Sports Resort and Wii Fit Plus--if you're into that sort of thing, and Excitebots, which was only released in North America that year. 2009 was such a bad year for Nintendo games that I actually went and bought a PS3, the first non-Nintendo console I ever owned. There were a few decent 3rd Party games released for the Wii that year though.

 

This year on the Wii U, we've seen three significant 2D platformers from Nintendo (Kirby and the Rainbow Curse, Yoshi's Woolly World, and Super Mario Maker), and then there's also been Splatoon, and a couple Mario spin-off titles.

 

Neither console really got anything I would consider a flagship title that year (although some may disagree, and that's fair enough). The Wii in it's last few years did get a few fairly decent games in the form of Mario Galaxy 2 and Skyward Sword. Nintendo only has so many teams which have the capability of putting out really high quality games (like major Mario and Zelda games), and we have already seen a decent number for the console. Since Nintendo games do take a few years to make, it's not surprising that we've seen a bit of a quiet period. Unlike the Wii however, with the not-so-great sales of the Wii U, I wouldn't be surprised at all if instead of seeing things pick up next year, some of the major games get delayed and released as NX launch titles.

[Goron_3]

A quick note, here, the PS4 sold the majority of its consoles way before Bloodborne was released, or even announced. Just saying, it's weird that people keep saying games like Bloodborne and Witcher 3 sell systems, when they were released less than 8 months ago.

 

Now, GTA V, that is the franchise that sells systems.

 

I never denied that the PS4 sold systems before Bloodborne's release You obviously can't quantify how many systems a game sells but I'm willing to bet than more people purchased a PS4 for games like Bloodborne than they would for say Donkey Kong or Pikmin 3. It's anecdotal but I know a lot of people who got a PS4 for just 1 or 2 games specifically; Nintendo need more of those games on the Wii U to sell systems to those who aren't hardcore Nintendo fans.

 

Out of interest, can someone compile a list of games Nintendo release in 2005 and 2011, which were other so called transition years? How did they fare critically compared to games Nintendo released this year?

[Emasher]

Out of interest, can someone compile a list of games Nintendo release in 2005 and 2011, which were other so called transition years? How did they fare critically compared to games Nintendo released this year?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_products_published_by_Nintendo

[Goron_3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_products_published_by_Nintendo

 

No reviews there unfortunately.

[Emasher]

Metacritic has lists here: http://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/release-date/available

They include 3rd party games though, and might not be very accurate for older consoles (such lists are available but I didn't see links to them on the page, so you'll have to search for them).

 

In any case, they should be easy to search based on the Wikipedia list.

[Hogge]

I get what you're saying but I have absolutely no problem with the structure of the glorious Wave Race: Blue Storm

 

To talk about replaying the 'same' championship three times over is a little unfair considering the actual courses in each tier were different from they were in the previous. The weather conditions also add such variety to each course that they can feel outrageously different whether you play in the sun or in a rain storm!

 

Super game

 

In fact, I actually like the structure of that game and find certain games to be too convoluted. Gran Turismo is probably a perfect example of that, for me.. but then I don't particularly care for that series

 

Mario Kart is certainly different, though, and the structure could do with a shake up, even if it was actually more like Wave Race For instant, 50cc could have your basic courses but higher classes could introduce new hazards, obstacles or even routes through each stage

 

I got frustrated with GT because I nearly never got to race the cars I liked the most. But that's not really the point. In Gran Turismo, there's a large mix. There are dozens of championships, each one mixing in different courses into the mix. Then there are single races where you only race one track.

In Mario Kart you have no choice: If you want to play Yoshi Valley, you have to race the other tracks in that championship in the exact same order. Not to mention that you unlock stuff by random, which is infinitely frustrating. Being a Mario Kart 64 lover, I wanted to unlock the Pipe Kart as soon as I got the game. But due to the randomness, the Pipe Kart was the last thing I ever unlocked. I had at that point unlocked Mirror Cup and played countless hours online.

 

Didn't I prove you wrong on this before? The majority of Nintendo's output on Wii U is not a 2D Platformer.

 

It doesen't matter. 2D platformers are still waaaay to big of a part of Nintendo's lineup. It doesen't really matter if Nintendo made 5 sidescrollers for the Wii U or 12, when ONE is enough. Sidescrollers don't sell consoles, PERIOD. They don't impress the general public, they're not what people talk about all the time from the moment it's announced until years after it's released.

Let's be honest: what are you more hyped for: Yarn Yoshi or Fallout 4? Kirbys Something in Whatever or Metal Gear Solid V? Animal Crossing: Amiibo Cashcow or Star Wars Battlefront? While YOU may perhaps pick the Nintendo alternatives, 90% of the market won't.

 

 

It's idiotic to release a whole bunch of first party sidescrollers when the eShop is crammed full with indie sidescrollers which aren't of considerably worse quality than the first party stuff.

The Wii U should've launched with an epic, open world adventure which made all the graphics mongers jizz in their pants. NOT a sidescroller and a minigame compilation. The next first party release should've been a racing game, showcasing vehicle models so real that you could feel the smoothness of the paintjob against your skin and physics so advanced you could taste them. Instead Nintendo churned out a second god damned minigame compilation.

 

IMO, that, and nothing else, gave the Wii U it's terrible start and subsequently doomed the system.

[Mr_Master_X2]

I got frustrated with GT because I nearly never got to race the cars I liked the most. But that's not really the point. In Gran Turismo, there's a large mix. There are dozens of championships, each one mixing in different courses into the mix. Then there are single races where you only race one track.

In Mario Kart you have no choice: If you want to play Yoshi Valley, you have to race the other tracks in that championship in the exact same order. Not to mention that you unlock stuff by random, which is infinitely frustrating. Being a Mario Kart 64 lover, I wanted to unlock the Pipe Kart as soon as I got the game. But due to the randomness, the Pipe Kart was the last thing I ever unlocked. I had at that point unlocked Mirror Cup and played countless hours online.

 

 

 

It doesen't matter. 2D platformers are still waaaay to big of a part of Nintendo's lineup. It doesen't really matter if Nintendo made 5 sidescrollers for the Wii U or 12, when ONE is enough. Sidescrollers don't sell consoles, PERIOD. They don't impress the general public, they're not what people talk about all the time from the moment it's announced until years after it's released.

Let's be honest: what are you more hyped for: Yarn Yoshi or Fallout 4? Kirbys Something in Whatever or Metal Gear Solid V? Animal Crossing: Amiibo Cashcow or Star Wars Battlefront? While YOU may perhaps pick the Nintendo alternatives, 90% of the market won't.

 

 

It's idiotic to release a whole bunch of first party sidescrollers when the eShop is crammed full with indie sidescrollers which aren't of considerably worse quality than the first party stuff.

The Wii U should've launched with an epic, open world adventure which made all the graphics mongers jizz in their pants. NOT a sidescroller and a minigame compilation. The next first party release should've been a racing game, showcasing vehicle models so real that you could feel the smoothness of the paintjob against your skin and physics so advanced you could taste them. Instead Nintendo churned out a second god damned minigame compilation.

 

IMO, that, and nothing else, gave the Wii U it's terrible start and subsequently doomed the system.

 

The first game released should have been the epic Super Mario U(niverse). That sadly only exists in the imagination of fans...

[Hero-of-Time]

It doesen't matter. 2D platformers are still waaaay to big of a part of Nintendo's lineup. It doesen't really matter if Nintendo made 5 sidescrollers for the Wii U or 12, when ONE is enough. Sidescrollers don't sell consoles, PERIOD. They don't impress the general public, they're not what people talk about all the time from the moment it's announced until years after it's released.

 

 

This game sold nearly 30 million units. If the market conditions are right then people will quite happily buy and enjoy a 2D platformer.

 

The next first party release should've been a racing game, showcasing vehicle models so real that you could feel the smoothness of the paintjob against your skin and physics so advanced you could taste them.

 

They don't need to do this because they have Mario Kart to please most people who want a driving fix. Hell, if we can't get a new F-Zero from Nintendo, I highly doubt they are going to spend the time, money and resources on a ultra realistic driving sim.

 

In regards to the amount of 2D platformers, personally it doesn't bother me. I grew up with these games and it's one of my favourite genres. It's certainly what Nintendo do best and I would like them to continue to make them.

[Goron_3]

 

This game sold nearly 30 million units. If the market conditions are right then people will quite happily buy and enjoy a 2D platformer.

 

 

 

They don't need to do this because they have Mario Kart to please most people who want a driving fix. Hell, if we can't get a new F-Zero from Nintendo, I highly doubt they are going to spend the time, money and resources on a ultra realistic driving sim.

 

In regards to the amount of 2D platformers, personally it doesn't bother me. I grew up with these games and it's one of my favourite genres. It's certainly what Nintendo do best and I would like them to continue to make them.

 

Well said - that audience is not coming to a Nintendo console given what's available on other consoles. The 2D platformer topic is interesting..Nintendo have made their consoles the home for platform games but they need to make it the home for other genres too. The Wii U has definitely had too many platform games but the biggest sin for me was letting their biggest Western developer release another one to add to NSMBU/L and SM3DW.

 

Nintendo certainly have the I.P to appeal to western gamers, it's just that they don't necessarily have the development studios to make those games anymore.

 

On a side note, the audience they need to target next is the market that wants sports titles. 1080, Waverace, Excitebike....:awesome:

[Hogge]

This game sold nearly 30 million units. If the market conditions are right then people will quite happily buy and enjoy a 2D platformer.

I never said that it won't sell. I said it won't sell consoles. I said that it's not the game that people will talk about around the water cooler at work.

 

They don't need to do this because they have Mario Kart to please most people who want a driving fix. Hell, if we can't get a new F-Zero from Nintendo, I highly doubt they are going to spend the time, money and resources on a ultra realistic driving sim.

First of all, Mario Kart wasn't shown off as early as it should have. Wii U would probably have had a better run if MK8 was a launch title.

Second, Nintendo reall, really do. Just the same as they really do need FIFA and Call of Duty on the console. Just like Splatoon can't make up for the lack of Battlefield 4, Mario Kart can't make up for the lack of a GT-copy. These games are at this point the bare basics necessary to sell consoles.

Thirdly, I never explicitely said it needs to be a Gran Turismo killer. A very ambitious Waverace or 3D Excitebike could fit the bill as well.

 

Realistically rendered cars is a very simple way to show off your consoles horesepower. A highly stylised 2D platformer is NOT. Just the existence of games like that drive console sales. You don't even have to be interrested in that genre and intend to buy the game to get hyped enough to buy the console.

In regards to the amount of 2D platformers, personally it doesn't bother me. I grew up with these games and it's one of my favourite genres. It's certainly what Nintendo do best and I would like them to continue to make them.

Having grown up with the N64, I'd rather have seen Nintendo's entire lineup be sequels to the stuff available there. But that doesen't matter. Just like whether you like 2D games or not doesen't matter.

What matters is hype. I heard a radio broadcast from ComicCon-Gamex in Stockholm a few days ago. What did every single cosplayer talk about? Regardless if they were dressed out as vault dwellers, Master Chief or Princess Peach, they were talking about Fallout 4. NOT Yarn Yoshi.

You can sell your right arm and your soul and you still wouldn't be able to get people hyped over a sidescroller, much less the fifth on the same system.

[Hero-of-Time]

I never said that it won't sell. I said it won't sell consoles. I said that it's not the game that people will talk about around the water cooler at work.

 

Given that it sold close to 30 million copies, I imagine it was quite the topic of conversation for a lot of people at the time.

 

Second, Nintendo really, really do. Just the same as they really do need FIFA and Call of Duty on the console. Just like Splatoon can't make up for the lack of Battlefield 4, Mario Kart can't make up for the lack of a GT-copy. These games are at this point the bare basics necessary to sell consoles.

Thirdly, I never explicitely said it needs to be a Gran Turismo killer. A very ambitious Waverace or 3D Excitebike could fit the bill as well.

 

I agree that they do need a more diverse line up ( I would love for them to release a new 1080, Wave Race etc. ) but at the same time I can see exactly why they have played it safe.

 

Development costs have skyrocketed over the past couple of generations and this has put many development studios out of business. Sure, they could make a new Wave Race, ExciteBike, F-Zero, Pilotwings etc but most of these franchises simply don't sell enough to justify the price of making them, no matter how good they are.

 

Nintendo have also tried their best to stay away from Season Passes and stupid amounts of DLC, most of which are actually needed to recoup the costs for a lot of these studios. It's not a practice they want to get into and quite rightly so.

 

Have these types of decisions harmed the Wii U? Probably. But even if these types of games had come along, I think the console has far bigger issues that stopped it from becoming a success, with price and marketing being the big two.

 

Realistically rendered cars is a very simple way to show off your consoles horesepower. A highly stylised 2D platformer is NOT. Just the existence of games like that drive console sales. You don't even have to be interrested in that genre and intend to buy the game to get hyped enough to buy the console.

 

This is where we clearly differ. If Nintendo came out during the NX reveal and showed off a realistic racer then my hype would simply deflate. Show me Mario running around and i'm a happy chappy.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Hero-of-Time

[Hogge]

Given that it sold close to 30 million copies, I imagine it was quite the topic of conversation for a lot of people at the time.

I know a lot of people who bought it. But noone was hyped for it. I never heard anyone talk about it.

I agree that they do need a more diverse line up ( I would love for them to release a new 1080, Wave Race etc. ) but at the same time I can see exactly why they have played it safe.

 

Development costs have skyrocketed over the past couple of generations and this has put many development studios out of business. Sure, they could make a new Wave Race, ExciteBike, F-Zero, Pilotwings etc but most of these franchises simply don't sell enough to justify the price of making them, no matter how good they are.

That logic would make perfect sense if Nintendo were a third party developer. Problem is that their entire business builds upon hardware sales. Nintendo will have to develop software which won't earn money if that means that hardware sales will benefit from it.

 

Nintendo have also tried their best to stay away from Season Passes and stupid amounts of DLC, most of which are actually needed to recoup the costs for a lot of these studios. It's not a practice they want to get into and quite rightly so.

Excessive DLC's are annoying, granted.

However, if each franchise only has one entry per console, I think they should go for it. Let's put it like this: I think that there only should be one new FIFA game every three or so years, with a single DLC/patch a year updating the player roster.

Have these types of decisions harmed the Wii U? Probably. But even if these types of games had come along, I think the console has far bigger issues that stopped it from becoming a success, with price and marketing being the big two.

Price wasn't a problem. The Wii U was significantly more powerful than the competition on launch. Problem is that Nintendo didn't have a single game that showed that until well after the announcement of the PS4 and XBONE.

 

And Nintendo could bancrupt themselves marketing the Wii U and still not be able to compete in the market. The software was just wrong.

This is where we clearly differ. If Nintendo came out during the NX reveal and showed off a realistic racer then my hype would simply deflate. Show me Mario running around and i'm a happy chappy.

I think both are necessary. The Wii U suffered from the lack of a 3D Mario during launch, and the subsequently unimpressive nature of Mario 3D World. A 3D Mario for the Nintendo fans and a racing "sim" for the mainstream.

[Ashley]

On the subject of groundbreaking games, I've seen a point made about how Super Mario Maker is the first major console game of the "game designer" genre. And even compared to other games of that genre (such as RPG Maker), it's a very accessible tool.

 

I would personally put something like LittleBigPlanet in the same category so curious what is your reason for not?

 

(genuine curiosity, as passive aggressive as that sounds).

[Jonnas]

I would personally put something like LittleBigPlanet in the same category so curious what is your reason for not?

 

(genuine curiosity, as passive aggressive as that sounds).

 

Nah, it's fair, I had forgotten about Little Big Planet, honestly (and I was reciting a point I saw elsewhere, anyway).

 

I remember seeing a few cool LBP levels back then, though most of them were more style than substance (as in, they had a cool theme, but not necessarily interesting from a gameplay perspective). I guess there are more people talking about Super Mario Maker now than LBP then, and now I'm wondering why. Could be the strength of the Mario brand, could be that the world is "online-ier" in 2015 than in 2008, or it could be that one editor is more comprehensive or accessible than the other.

 

Unfortunately, I've never really dabbled with LBP before, so I can't say for certain if that last one is actually true, or if it's just my impression (maybe @RedShell could shed some light into this, if he built something in Little Big Planet before?)

 

Regardless, I can't help but feel that the notoriety of the Mario brand is a significant factor. SMM allows you to build levels with the same rules as a game from your childhood, whether that be SMB, SMBW or NSMB, and that sort of thing really helps with how accessible the player/maker finds it.