Wii U General Discussion

[Sheikah]

If they had guessed right with the poor online infrastructure/features a couple of generations ago, why is the Wii U failing?

 

It's not a guess; it's a certainty. They have neglected what their fans want, in terms of online/power/price/relations with third party devs. They reap what they sow.

 

Also, regarding image - if you're producing a console, you very much care what people think about it. If they think it's lagging behind the competition in fundamental areas then of course they're not going to support it.

[Pestneb]

If they had guessed right with the poor online infrastructure/features a couple of generations ago, why is the Wii U failing?

power/price/relations with third party devs.

 

I think you summed it up pretty well

 

*just to clarify, I'm sure online has a part to play in their poor position, but I don't see that their online has deteriorated that much since the highs of the Wii, which was less powerful hardware and hardly experienced stellar 3rd party core games support.*

Edited March 14, 2014 by Pestneb

[RedShell]

Was Dark Souls II ever on the cards for Wii U? I'm guessing not, but didn't follow development of the game at all.

 

Anyway, playing it at the moment on PS3, and think it's a real shame that it didn't come to Wii U.

Would have been quality for the menus etc, as all of this stuff could've just been chucked on the GamePad screen:

 

Not to mention it would've filled the gap to MK8 very nicely.

[Hero-of-Time]

Was Dark Souls II ever on the cards for Wii U? I'm guessing not, but didn't follow development of the game at all.

 

Anyway, playing it at the moment on PS3, and think it's a real shame that it didn't come to Wii U.

Would have been quality for the menus etc, as all of this stuff could've just been chucked on the GamePad screen:

 

Not to mention it would've filled the gap to MK8 very nicely.

 

The producer of the game was questioned as to whether it would come to the Wii U and he just laughed at the possibilty of it.

[tapedeck]

His laughing was pretty sad where an audience of Monster Hunter exists. Namco Bandai have also worked on WiiU so it seems like a missed opportunity for them as well. We could discuss sales estimates but it's typical third party cynicism in my opinion.

 

Part of the problem is the following as w

Owing to years of tactics from MS and SONY in regards to financial incentives to bring third party titles to their systems - many third parties now expect a transaction to take place. Purely on the basis that their AAA titles bring value to the MS & SONY brand.

As Nintendo tend not to do this, (nor build effective online systems that can extract money from consumers easily) developers can then do a 'Rayman' on WiiU (where no exclusivity/timed exclusivity deals exist) or back out completely.

It's crap for consumers in my opinion, but Nintendo don't want to venture too far down that street.

I don't have the answers but it's definitely frustrating for Nintendo gamers.

Edited March 14, 2014 by tapedeck

[liger05]

The producer of the game was questioned as to whether it would come to the Wii U and he just laughed at the possibilty of it.

 

Yeah basically he said the audience they target isn't one which buys a Nintendo console.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

I kinda picture a maddening, ten minute WW Ganondorf laugh. Lol.

[Sheikah]

To be honest, any developer could legitimately laugh at the idea of bringing anything to the Wii U right now.

[RedShell]

The producer of the game was questioned as to whether it would come to the Wii U and he just laughed at the possibilty of it.

I see.

Well that's very strange as from what I've played of it so far, Dark Souls and Wii U seem like a perfect fit.

 

Like I mentioned before, the GamePad could free up the TV screen, giving players constant and immediate access to items/info. But even better than that would've been Miiverse integration for the message system. For those that aren't aware, you can leave messages all over the game world for other players to read while playing online, offering tips, warnings etc... In fact, the moderated nature of Miiverse would have allowed for custom messages, rather than having to choose from pre-set phrases.

 

Oh well.

[Rummy]

Agreed, there is no way of knowing. They may have made the right choice though.

you suggest the added 1 hour could in effect on it's own be responsible for 100 sales, vs 1 sale yield for the other 100 hours. What if the reality was the other way around though?

Nintendo have a finite amount of hours, determined by staffing levels. Yes it can be increased, but it will always be a finite amount of hours.

If they are sure of a 100 sale = 1 hour, then it makes more sense to finish a game early and put the now available extra hours into a new game that is likely to yield 100 sales per hour, rather than sink that hour into online play...

 

What if the reality was the other way? What if it wasn't? The problem is we don't know. How do we find out/know? By them taking the step and trying it!

 

It can be increased but it's still finite? No, that's going very much against the definition against finite. There is no finiteness - there does not have to be. It is, theoretically, infinite to the point where ALL resources are exhausted. All to a point yes, but to one farther than I believe is being looked at/justified.

 

Finite hours? Determined by staffing levels? For example - I started my job for a 'couple of hours' for 'one week' - I'm still in it 3 years later with many more hours and doing a variety of other things. I was theoretically finite, so far I have been infinite.

 

Why do you think there is or has to be a limit on the time/money/hours? Run it a week longer, put a bit extra into it - get an extra yield? These are usually salaried people after all - so you're not having to 'find' the workforce. Your alternative to my 1% increase on work = 1% or more increase in sales more more seems to imply ADDING that work in will reduce sales? I think putting an ADDITIONAL feature without taking anything away(so Nintendoland, exactly as is, but with MORE content) - will never reduce sales in that respect.

 

 

sure they don't know how online would pan out. they only have their own experience to rely on, for GC the optional online adapter flopped (only supported by 1/2 games right?). So Nintendo gamers don't want online.

Never the less they did incorporate online into the Wii.... but they shifted from the "core gamer" group so they don't really have a lot of experience to draw on. They do appear to be a generation behind, really it does make sense if they have spent all that R&D looking into how to improve that interface, to catch up...

 

They don't because they don't try hard/well enough, possibly. Not a reason to not do it. GC - poorly executed. Not enough to benefit, extra(largely extra) cost for the item - it just didn't sell well because, as the argument is being made now, the model wasn't ideal. This is both within itself and more importantly in comparison to the competition - some consumers will see/notice that.

 

Games like Halo work online because AI sucks..Nintendoland would stand to benefit less, because it is less reliant on intelligent AI.

 

I do see your point though, if compelling online experiences were made available. I mean, the game pad has the camera attached, and microphone. Straight away, opportunities. The thing I love most about multiplayer is seeing reactions, and that possibility remains. Still inferior (for me) to local multiplayer, but about as good as it can get this gen.

 

Anyway. Yeah, it's a shame, hopefully Nintendo will sort it. I think they realise now that they have to!

 

I'm not sure I get this argument - do you mean AI in Halo campaign so needed for online? I didn't complete either Halo campaign, I barely even touched the single player - I was all about the online, multi-person, and friends, experience. Every single game will be different - because it's got different people. I'm the same IRL I was discussing last night - sometimes I love just playing/watching people play games just for the variety it offers itself(admittedly I'm talking short tabletop games in this respect).

 

You're bang on about compelling online experiences though - I played NFS:MW with a few folks here and what was really nice was the gamepad's built in mic/speaker. Voice chat. Off the bat. I was part of the action straight away. No need for headsets, let alone bluetooth or 2.5mm ones - just there, then, easy as a piece of pie. Few lag pockets but actually generally quite good too. Headset option AVAILABLE, but not NECESSARY. Big win in my book, not on money so much but just that inclusive design - kinda comes back to why I think the GC modem wasn't approved of(not inclusive).

 

 

I also agree very much on local - I like local for the experience and personal interaction it brings(maybe why I tabletop much more now). That's why I'm not saying get rid of it in favour of online, keep it, but offer both. I can't wait for Smash mostly for local as I did so much before - but also for online because I can do so much more! I genuinely believe with/for online the investment vs payoff will work IF it's done properly - and I think that's been demonstrated well by other consoles both current and past.

[Cube]

I'm not sure I get this argument - do you mean AI in Halo campaign so needed for online? I didn't complete either Halo campaign

 

The co-op Halo campaigns are great, especially on harder difficulties (due to great enemy AI). I played way more campaign in Reach then I did the multiplayer.

[Captain Falcon]

His laughing was pretty sad where an audience of Monster Hunter exists. Namco Bandai have also worked on WiiU so it seems like a missed opportunity for them as well. We could discuss sales estimates but it's typical third party cynicism in my opinion.

 

The monster hunting audience is certainly at the more hardcore end of the gamer spectrum to the point that they likely own another console that could play the Soul's titles. The overlap is such that the number of the population that isn't covered isn't worth bothering with. Besides, one of the reasons for MH's mild susccess in the west is Nintendo's considerable push and effort - something that wouldn't be given to a none exclusive third party game. If the audience was so strong, Capcom would do a port of MH4G to Wii U but judging by the interview over at EG the other day, there is little change of that happening unless Nintendo decides to pony up the dough. There is a market there, alothough small, but it's already covered else where.

 

 

Part of the problem is the following as w

Owing to years of tactics from MS and SONY in regards to financial incentives to bring third party titles to their systems - many third parties now expect a transaction to take place. Purely on the basis that their AAA titles bring value to the MS & SONY brand.

As Nintendo tend not to do this, (nor build effective online systems that can extract money from consumers easily) developers can then do a 'Rayman' on WiiU (where no exclusivity/timed exclusivity deals exist) or back out completely.

It's crap for consumers in my opinion, but Nintendo don't want to venture too far down that street.

I don't have the answers but it's definitely frustrating for Nintendo gamers.

 

Or to put it another way...

 

Owing to a decade of bullying tactics from Nintendo in regards to third party support and making them jump through hoops just to be allowed to publish at costly rates, many third parties were fed up of being treated so poorly. Purely on the basis that their games are good enough to stand up without the Nintendo brand associated with them, they took them elsewhere.

As Sony and MS were very happy to welcome these companies and provide support, both technical and financial, they were looked upon quite favourably. They also build a foward thinking robust online infrastructure that enables a developer to support their game long after release in variety of ways to keep customers happy and loyal and widen the player base by offering services that would draw in people who want more than a dedicated games machine. Sometimes this may involve an expense to the player but it is their choice whether to pay and the take up of such services has only grown as the hardware manufactures offer greater services that allow consumers to extract even more value from their machines.

 

The crafty bastards...

 

 

Look, I'm not saying MS and Sony are innocent here, but you're offering such a blinkered view that I also mistook your post for that of another member. You're normally far more balanced than that in your analysis, whilst still looking for the good in Nintendo, that I feel you've done yourself a disservice here.

[Dcubed]

I see.

Well that's very strange as from what I've played of it so far, Dark Souls and Wii U seem like a perfect fit.

 

Like I mentioned before, the GamePad could free up the TV screen, giving players constant and immediate access to items/info. But even better than that would've been Miiverse integration for the message system. For those that aren't aware, you can leave messages all over the game world for other players to read while playing online, offering tips, warnings etc... In fact, the moderated nature of Miiverse would have allowed for custom messages, rather than having to choose from pre-set phrases.

 

Oh well.

 

Yeah it would really improve the experience. A big part of what puts me off the Demon's/Dark Souls games is how clunky they are, with its bazillion different menus and stat porn.

 

Streamlining that with the Gamepad would do wonders for making it more accessible (note to the developers: Making a game more accessible doesn't mean that the game is made easier. It's ok to make the game more accessible to people who aren't turned on by masses of menus and numbers )

[Sheikah]

Masses of menus? It's really not difficult to understand at all, and seems to have been blown out of all sense of proportion. That image is only daunting for a second until you level up once and understand what all of it means. There's no point dumbing it down when people will generally buy the game because they've heard how awesome it is anyway.

[Retro_Link]

What so you just look down at the Gamepad and scroll through all these stats and menu's?

 

If you're doing work on your stats and items etc... you're not going to be playing the game anyway, you're going to want the game paused to get this stuff done. I would have thought Dark Souls was possibly the last game you would ever want running in the background whilst you focus on other things.

[dazzybee]

To be honest, any developer could legitimately laugh at the idea of bringing anything to the Wii U right now.

 

Why do you have to make a little dig in 90% of your posts?

 

But maybe developers should just have a little more respect?

[Sheikah]

Why should they have respect for the Wii U? Nintendo have long run with the 'join us if you want' mentality with a view that third party games are there as an accompaniment to their first party lineup. They didn't even care to ask other devs what they wanted out of their new console when designing it. They frankly didn't give a fuck, and ended up with a console nobody wanted to develop for. D'em chickens, d'ey be roostin'.

 

Also, why do you care so much if I remark negatively about Nintendo? Is your life so centred around a company that any negativity towards it comes back to you? I just don't get why you fly off the handle every time I make a negative comment about Nintendo. Nintendo are doing much wrong these days so it's not surprising they get a lot of criticism.

 

What so you just look down at the Gamepad and scroll through all these stats and menu's?

 

If you're doing work on your stats and items etc... you're not going to be playing the game anyway, you're going to want the game paused to get this stuff done. I would have thought Dark Souls was possibly the last game you would ever want running in the background whilst you focus on other things.

 

Exactly this. The gamepad solves absolutely nothing in terms of menu management, apart from Wind Waker as the boat could automatically continue to sail while you sifted through the map/menus.

 

And let me just say, as it sounds like there are a lot of people here who are not familiar with the game; nobody is going to be doing much menu management while in an area with enemies. You will die. Serious menu management will be for the hub world.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Sheikah

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

Why do you have to make a little dig in 90% of your posts?

 

But maybe developers should just have a little more respect?

 

TBH Ninetendo bring it on themselves. I cant argue against the frustration of fans - its an incredibly fustrating time to be a Nintendo fan.

[tapedeck]

 

Look, I'm not saying MS and Sony are innocent here, but you're offering such a blinkered view that I also mistook your post for that of another member. You're normally far more balanced than that in your analysis, whilst still looking for the good in Nintendo, that I feel you've done yourself a disservice here.

 

I totally get where you are coming from and appreciate you highlighting such aspects (and giving me a slap.)

 

I think I'm just tired of the apathy toward Nintendo systems and how the big developers I loved as a kid all now want to become adult entertainment developers where games should all be hyper realistic and focus on becoming a killing/competition simulator.

 

Titanfall is the latest 'Murica fuck yeah war machine game to fit into this philosophy (and I expect that from EA) but what the hell happened to Konami, Capcom and all of the great developers we lost over the years in pursuit of this Hollywood-competing industry?

Half of the western studios were bought out by bigger western companies and killed. Rare/Criterion/Bulldog/Westwood studios are all examples where the money machine doesn't always work.

 

I'm pro Nintendo because they at least have stayed congruent with who they are also offering brilliant games and age-appropriate entertainment that can be enjoyed by all ages. Instead, half the kids I know all now want (or play) GTAIV and don't want to play 'kids games' like Mario.

 

But I realise this is Nintendo's fault too. They constantly make the same mistakes when they promise to have learnt from their previous mistakes time after time. They also let the Wii die out with a flicker not building or riding on the system's legacy. And the name WiiU showed how out of touch they are with a global market.

This generation is going to be generally frustrating all round for WiiU owners as is the norm for many Nintendo gamers - but again most of it is Nintendo shooting themselves in the foot.

[dazzybee]

Why should they respect the Wii u? Well they should respect Nintendo, because we're talking professionals, not children on Internet forums, and people should respect each other.

 

I don't mind negative discussion, it's just the painful digs all the time. It bothers me because it bores me senseless and drags all discussions into the same old shit. It's just painfully childish. I just want proper, intelligent discussions.

[Retro_Link]

I don't know @tapedeck, as much as other big developers may have changed from when we were kids, I personally don't feel Nintendo themselves are that same company anymore either.

 

I struggle to get as excited about their games as much anymore and often they just aren't there. They're not really consistently putting out the [range of] games I loved them for, and sometimes I feel like they're letting the quality slip a little (as much as we have a go at other developers for day one patches). With Yoshi's Island being the latest example.

 

I don't really feel I know what they're about as much anymore, where their priorities lie. Since the Wii they now seem to be progressively heading more and more towards this 'lifestyle third pillar' of theirs. Are they focusing a lot of their resources internally on this? is this why the games often aren't there now when their consoles really need them? They seem to be neglecting so many areas, online, virtual console, their franchise library, new characters... the gamepad! And they make very strange decisions.

 

More often they seem to be getting help with their games too... and whilst the Nintendo Seal of Quality may not have been meant as what it was taken for, it used to stand for something with the fans. I'm not sure that's the same Nintendo anymore.

[Captain Falcon]

I totally get where you are coming from and appreciate you highlighting such aspects (and giving me a slap.)

 

I think I'm just tired of the apathy toward Nintendo systems and how the big developers I loved as a kid all now want to become adult entertainment developers where games should all be hyper realistic and focus on becoming a killing/competition simulator.

 

Titanfall is the latest 'Murica fuck yeah war machine game to fit into this philosophy (and I expect that from EA) but what the hell happened to Konami, Capcom and all of the great developers we lost over the years in pursuit of this Hollywood-competing industry?

Half of the western studios were bought out by bigger western companies and killed. Rare/Criterion/Bulldog/Westwood studios are all examples where the money machine doesn't always work.

 

I'm pro Nintendo because they at least have stayed congruent with who they are also offering brilliant games and age-appropriate entertainment that can be enjoyed by all ages. Instead, half the kids I know all now want (or play) GTAIV and don't want to play 'kids games' like Mario.

 

But I realise this is Nintendo's fault too. They constantly make the same mistakes when they promise to have learnt from their previous mistakes time after time. They also let the Wii die out with a flicker not building or riding on the system's legacy. And the name WiiU showed how out of touch they are with a global market.

This generation is going to be generally frustrating all round for WiiU owners as is the norm for many Nintendo gamers - but again most of it is Nintendo shooting themselves in the foot.

 

I wasn't sure if was being a touch personal with that last section but I'm glad you didn't take offense. I just don't like seeing smart people saying silly things when I know they know better. There are plenty of other people posting rubbish around here and the last thing it needs is yourself, typically a beacon for balanced positivity, joining in with them.

 

As for the rest of this, totally agree but I think you answered you own question with regards to what happened to the devs. The market they were targetting changed and now the kids do want their "adult" games. It's reflective of a total change in the types and ways we absorb media, and how its content has changed, with some having adapted and some having not.

 

Nintendo continue to do, as they always have and likely will, their own thing and sometimes it pays off and sometimes it's to their detriment. It is incredibly difficult, however, to argue against the fact that they have in large been totally responsible for their own downturn in performance over the years.

 

@Retro_Link

 

Isn't that just as much you changing as it is Nintendo changing.

 

I know my tastes have changed, or perhaps more accurately expanded, over the years. Had Nintendo's recent output been coming out 15 years ago, yes it would seem exciting but now it doesn't have the appeal because I'm targetting a broader range of games and there are plenty of other things out there that I haven't experienced before.

[Retro_Link]

Isn't that just as much you changing as it is Nintendo changing.

 

I know my tastes have changed, or perhaps more accurately expanded, over the years. Had Nintendo's recent output been coming out 15 years ago, yes it would seem exciting but now it doesn't have the appeal because I'm targetting a broader range of games and there are plenty of other things out there that I haven't experienced before.

A bit of both.

 

I don't think I would have the same affection for Nintendo as I do now if it were based off of today's output released 15 years ago. The diversity just isn't there, genre, character, gameplay. And I think the magical experiences that used to be there almost game in game out are becoming fewer and farther between. The fact that third party relationships have broken down to such a bad extent also doesn't help the matter, as before I could associate Nintendo consoles with that of Rare's output, Capcom's output etc...

[dazzybee]

That's interesting; I feel Nintendo's output is still incredible personally; I think that fact it's all been done before may dampen the experience, but 3D world and Pikmin 3 are leaders in their genres; I still think things like Wii Sports and Nintendoland offered great new experiences; I mean, I still think Nintendo are nintendo and that's why I love them, they appeal to my sensibilities and provide the games i want to play most.

 

Obviously we'll never know, but I don't think Nintendo 15 years ago were more magical than now, I remember the N64 years and the gamecube years and it was the same conversations - N64 was awful and not as good as the snes, gamecube came out, it's awful, not as good as the N64, wii comes out, it's awful, not as good as the gamecube, now wii u comes out and we're still looking at their pasts.... It's the same with music and films and most things, in the moment it's not as good as the past, usually because you only remember the best of the best of the past and it's all great; while now we're exposed to everything - the bad games, the droughts, the bullshit media etc. I have no doubt we'll be able to look back on the Wii U and view it as a classic console!

[Sheikah]

Nintendo changing used to be the norm though - Mario 64 was groundbreaking, Zelda OoT was groundbreaking, Smash was something very new and cool. Now their games are mostly derivative, polished versions of earlier games. There's only so long you can rehash before people tire.