University Fees - Good or Bad?

[Frank]

Day of the Riots today!

 

 

I'm annoyed at myself for missing the main march. Although, it only lasted about 3 hours, which I found especially surprising. Thought it would be much more serious than that. I arrived to Dublin City about...half 3. Rang some people and turns out they were all in McDonalds etc. WHERE'S YOUR REBEL SPIRIT?!

I originally planned to stay the night -- proper Vietnam 60s style. It lacked fruition, however. I'm still glad I went. The atmosphere around university today felt uniquely different today. It felt so buzzed! I felt the same in the city.

 

20,000 student protesters will hopefully be enough to influence the government to reduce our fees, currently standing at just over 2,000. It feels too good to be political & feeling like you're making a difference.

Spent the afternoon on a high travelling Modern Art Museums and being blown away by it all.

 

I need to lie.

[Cube]

Yes, we shouldn't support universities by letting the government give them lots of money now, and then we slowly pay the governments back once we have a decent job.

 

Instead, we should let the whole university system go ahead underfunded, likely forcing many to close.

 

Instead of protesting, people should work out how else the universities can get the funding they need.

 

Edit: Just realised you're in Ireland. Point still stands, I think.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Cube

[nightwolf]

Only 2k? Are you shitting us? Have you seen some of our fees?

 

...Crazy times.

[Frank]

I fully support the protest + its aims.

 

€2,000 is massive compared to 1996. Our fees stood at just £150. This isn't about comparing our fees to England. Our government has repeatedly lied to us, promising to not increase any fees for college. They lied and we, as a student population, will not stand being so blatedly lied to. They're also threatening to cut our grant scheme, which is outrageous. I know too many people who will simply not be able to afford college if the government gets its way. We have to do this.

[Mr_Odwin]

Thin edge of the wedge. 15 years ago it was free in England.

[EEVILMURRAY]

Day of the Riots today!

 

Rang some people and turns out they were all in McDonalds etc. WHERE'S YOUR REBEL SPIRIT?!

You enquire about the rebel spirit of a few friends who did something other than joining a 20k collective? Don't worry kiddo, I know what you meant.

20,000 student protesters will hopefully be enough to influence the government to reduce our fees, currently standing at just over 2,000. It feels too good to be political & feeling like you're making a difference.

But you haven't made a difference*. You joined a big club for the day. Have fees fallen? Probably not. Have you got the wheels in the heads of bigwigs turning? More than likely. Have they realised they don't give a toss? Definitely.

 

 

Best of luck though Have any of the recent student protests/riots had any results? @chairdriver ! You were at one of them, did anything come of it at the end?

 

 

 

 

*Opinion subject to change due to differences.

 

 

 

Good stuff for me though - Skyward Sword has gone to "preparing for dispatch" now. I've never wanted to cancel the order, but now I don't have a choice!

Edited November 17, 2011 by EEVILMURRAY

[Charlie]

Thin edge of the wedge. 15 years ago it was free in England.

 

I've just finished 4 years of free university education. Gotta love being Scottish. : peace:

[chairdriver]

20,000 student protesters will hopefully be enough to influence the government to reduce our fees, currently standing at just over 2,000. It feels too good to be political & feeling like you're making a difference.

 

Peaceful protest on this scale does little. Superficially it makes it seem democracy is happening, where actually, power rests in the hands of a very small number of people most of which have no obligation to listen to protestors.

 

Don't pretend our political system is a perfect debating chamber where all arguments are weighed up equally and the best choice of action is made. It's not. People with more money, more contacts, more influence, more oil have more say.

 

Of course, you should be going to protests -- everyone who cares should, because having no protest is worse than an ineffectual protest -- but you have to realise that peaceful protest rarely achieves anything.

[EEVILMURRAY]

I've just finished 4 years of free university education. Gotta love being Scottish. : peace:

Gotta love not earning enough at the time! The loan was just for accomodation and beer. I'll pay that when I can.

Of course, you should be going to protests -- everyone who cares should, because having no protest is worse than an ineffectual protest -- but you have to realise that peaceful protest rarely achieves anything.

Did anything come of yours Chair? I know the one you went to was violent and if anyone on this forum was going to follow its progress it's going to be you (this is not an insult).

[chairdriver]

Best of luck though Have any of the recent student protests/riots had any results? @chairdriver ! You were at one of them, did anything come of it at the end?

 

I think, while superficially ineffective, they've had far-reaching results:

 

Lots more people have become politicised. Lots more people have realised that this stuff is important. Politics is a lot BIGGER than Labour vs Tory and parliamentary debate -- politics affects us all. For many these protests were people's first experience of extraparliamentary politics, and for many that was a very valuable thing.

 

Many of the people at these protests have now experienced the way they are policed, and have begun to think about the role of the Police, and the how power, protest and policing work together. Why should a policeman have any power to pepper-spray an 84 year old woman in the face who was legally within her rights to protest?

[Charlie]

@chairdriver; you were at the protests. What do you think should be done to fund universities as you're clearly against the proposed system?

 

Universities need money, they can't go on as they are or they will go bust and have to close down.

 

What's the alternative to raising the fees? Raising the fees is a fair system, you don't pay back what you borrow until you earn enough.

[Wesley]

I think, while superficially ineffective, they've had far-reaching results:

 

Lots more people have become politicised. Lots more people have realised that this stuff is important. Politics is a lot BIGGER than Labour vs Tory and parliamentary debate -- politics affects us all. For many these protests were people's first experience of extraparliamentary politics, and for many that was a very valuable thing.

 

Many of the people at these protests have now experienced the way they are policed, and have begun to think about the role of the Police, and the how power, protest and policing work together. Why should a policeman have any power to pepper-spray an 84 year old woman in the face who was legally within her rights to protest?

 

 

 

Hum... but that didn't happen at the student protests.

 

Also, all you really found out is how police "police" when there are lots of student cocks smashing windows and throwing fire extinguishers from rooftops at police officers.

 

Those, by the way, are two things that actually happened during the student protests in London; and not at a different event over 2000 miles away.

[chairdriver]

@chairdriver; you were at the protests. What do you think should be done to fund universities as you're clearly against the proposed system?

 

Universities need money, they can't go on as they are or they will go bust and have to close down.

 

What's the alternative to raising the fees? Raising the fees is a fair system, you don't pay back what you borrow until you earn enough.

 

While I think raising fees is an attack on the working class and social mobility, in that it immediately dissuades people who can't imagine ever having that much money, my primary concern for being at the protests was about funding cuts, and the marketisation of education.

 

My ideal outcome would be to morph the way we approach economics and the way we structure ourselves socially -- I'm very much a Marxist. It's difficult to tangibly present a battle plan, mostly because I'm not a Marxist theorist -- all I know is that the marketisation of education is a really really bad idea. [And putting on my capitalist hat, funding cuts to universities will actually just make us worse off in the future, because we won't be able to compete with academic development of other countries and our researchers will move abroad where there are better facilities]

 

My first instinct -- other than revolution -- is to divert some of the billions and billions of £ that's fed into the defence budget into education, such that everyone in this country can attain the standard of education that they deserve.

 

 

Education leads people out of oppression.

[The fish]

While I think raising fees is an attack on the working class and social mobility, in that it immediately dissuades people who can't imagine ever having that much money, my primary concern for being at the protests was about funding cuts, and the marketisation of education.

 

My ideal outcome would be to morph the way we approach economics and the way we structure ourselves socially -- I'm very much a Marxist. It's difficult to tangibly present a battle plan, mostly because I'm not a Marxist theorist -- all I know is that the marketisation of education is a really really bad idea. [And putting on my capitalist hat, funding cuts to universities will actually just make us worse off in the future, because we won't be able to compete with academic development of other countries and our researchers will move abroad where there are better facilities]

 

My first instinct -- other than revolution -- is to divert some of the billions and billions of £ that's fed into the defence budget into education, such that everyone in this country can attain the standard of education that they deserve.

 

 

Education leads people out of oppression.

 

Well aren't you a bit of a plonker? The student load system is designed so that anyone can go to University for the first time. Your wealth before Uni, or that of your parents, has no effect on your ability to get a student loan, or your (ie not your parents) ability to pay it back. The idea is that everyone pays of the loan from a level field (ie being a graduate).

 

As for your psudo-communist plan, I disagree. An economically capitalist and socially liberal-socialist system is by far the best system we have. It's by no means perfect, but, unlike the others, it works. Which is nice.

 

The defence budget is a sticky issue, as it employs so many people, and brings a ton of money into the country through sales of technology and kit developed through R&D paid for my the defence budget.

 

Oh, and the Scottish government can fuck right off - I really hate having to pay off my tuition loan AND pay taxes, some of which go to Scotland to allow people who's sole characteristic is being Scottish go to Universities there for free. It's horrifically unfair, and, if I'm honest, a tad racist. I pay tax money that goes, in part, to the Scottish government, so why can't I go to university there for free?

[Jon]

Well aren't you a bit of a plonker? The student load system is designed so that anyone can go to University for the first time. Your wealth before Uni, or that of your parents, has no effect on your ability to get a student loan, or your (ie not your parents) ability to pay it back. The idea is that everyone pays of the loan from a level field (ie being a graduate).

 

As for your psudo-communist plan, I disagree. An economically capitalist and socially liberal-socialist system is by far the best system we have. It's by no means perfect, but, unlike the others, it works. Which is nice.

 

The defence budget is a sticky issue, as it employs so many people, and brings a ton of money into the country through sales of technology and kit developed through R&D paid for my the defence budget.

 

Oh, and the Scottish government can fuck right off - I really hate having to pay off my tuition loan AND pay taxes, some of which go to Scotland to allow people who's sole characteristic is being Scottish go to Universities there for free. It's horrifically unfair, and, if I'm honest, a tad racist. I pay tax money that goes, in part, to the Scottish government, so why can't I go to university there for free?

 

 

Don't pull that one man, there's a ton of shit I pay my taxes for and get fuck all out off it. Pulling the racism card is well out of line.

[MoogleViper]

Don't pull that one man, there's a ton of shit I pay my taxes for and get fuck all out off it. Pulling the racism card is well out of line.

 

Not really. Scotland gets more money from the government than it raises. I'm not complaining about that, but it's annoying when they decide to user that money to benefit only themselves.

 

I also find it interesting, the amount of welsh people I heard complain about scots getting it free, compared to how many I know hear.

[Wesley]

MY GOOD POST OF THE DAY:

 

I found a store that sells Spearmint Polos.

 

Don't pull that one man, there's a ton of shit I pay my taxes for and get fuck all out off it. Pulling the racism card is well out of line.

 

Out of interest, what do you include in that?

 

I mean, apart from the stuff you decide not to use/partake in.

 

For instance, when I was working I paid taxes that was spent on funding public transport, but I didn't use it.

 

That doesn't really count because I still had the opportunity to.

 

Where as when I was paying taxes I was (in theory) paying for a Scottish student's uni fees...

 

But... there's no way that I can take advantage of that?

 

If I went to that very same university and did that very same course, I'd have to just pay for myself?

[Jon]

Not really. Scotland gets more money from the government than it raises. I'm not complaining about that, but it's annoying when they decide to user that money to benefit only themselves.

 

I also find it interesting, the amount of welsh people I heard complain about scots getting it free, compared to how many I know hear.

 

We get a budget that our government decides best how to allocate (rightly or wrongly). This sounds good in theory but comes at the expense of there services. I never went to University so i'm not biased in anyway but it becomes a little tiresome when people trot out the old xenophobic angle.

[Wesley]

Whatever... you're so racist.

 

Racist against...

 

Wait.

 

Who mentioned anything about racism being involved here?

 

That was stupid.

[Jon]

Not really. Scotland gets more money from the government than it raises. I'm not complaining about that, but it's annoying when they decide to user that money to benefit only themselves.

 

I also find it interesting, the amount of welsh people I heard complain about scots getting it free, compared to how many I know hear.

 

According to a report from Oxford Economics, Scotland roughly pays the same in tax as it gets back in public spending. The report is a couple of years old but i'd doubt it's grown to the sort of gap you're alluding too.

 

Scotland makes an enormous contribution to the UK economy through oil revenues from which it gets nothing off.

 

The formula used to calculate what Scotland, N. Ireland and Wales get is ancient and does need to be looked at but take away the Oil industry work done up here and we'll all be fucked.

 

I'd rather we didn't get cheap Uni places, the money could be spent on other things and it would surely stop the many thousands who abuse the system just to get drunk for 4 years and not have to get a real job. A tad harsh probably but there are far too many clowns who abuse the right at the cost of others who actually want to learn.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Jon

[Wesley]

Was this before the banking crisis?

 

Because if Scotland was an independent country that would have CRUSHED you.

 

Not you specifically.

 

But you're kind.

 

OH SHIT IM RACISTY!!!

[Jon]

Was this before the banking crisis?

 

Because if Scotland was an independent country that would have CRUSHED you.

 

Not you specifically.

 

But you're kind.

 

OH SHIT IM RACISTY!!!

 

We'd have survived, we'd just revert to our base instincts. We'd all channel our inner William Wallace and march around in skirts shouting often used one-liners.

[Happenstance]

We'd have survived, we'd just revert to our base instincts. We'd all channel our inner William Wallace and march around in skirts shouting often used one-liners.

 

Your telling me thats not what its like anyway?!

[Jon]

Your telling me thats not what its like anyway?!

 

Only on Sundays.

[The fish]

I'd rather we didn't get cheap Uni places, the money could be spent on other things.

 

And that, my friend, is my point - why can't Scottish students get a loan and pay it back later? The Scottish government would break even, and then have all the money they currently spend on sending Scots to Uni to spend on other things.

 

It's made doubly annoying when some of the money funding that is coming out of my tax bill, whilst I'm simultaneously paying off my student loan. If I go to University in Scotland, I have to pay, even though I pay tax that, in part, goes to the Scottish Government, and the distinction is made by the Scottish Government purely on geographic location.