Sheikah Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 I'm not on about the old games, VC was a bad comparison. I mean just downloadable games like Braid, Bastion, Bionic Commando, Lara Croft Guardians, Shadow Complex, Trials HD, Splosion Man, Portal, Plants vs Zombies, Geometry Wars, Perfect Dark, Sonic 4, N+, Super Meat Boy, Rez HD, Streets of Rage, Ikaruga. I know most of these are on both, but for whatever reason there's no single category to find all these games in on the PS3, and they don't all have a free trial version. With these games being so short I don't see why they all need a trial version. Fairly sure they have their own place in PSN, but even then I'm not sure what the problem is. You know the game you want is Braid, so it makes infinitely more sense to search 'Braid' than to waste even 10 seconds clicking a category and scrolling through it.
Shorty Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 No... You shouldn't know the name of the game before you start, that's just stupid. It's a type of game where you should be able to just browse through and pick one. Downloads are small and fast so you can trial something that looks good or is well received and get it based on that. You should be able to view the most popular/most downloaded and go from there. 360 also has a huge Indie selection at dirt cheap prices with some great little titles like Applejack and the Impossible Game. There is not a section just for these kind of games on the PS3. There is PS3 games (encompassing these types of games), demos and minis, but nothing in between.
Sheikah Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 Of course you would know the names of games you actually want before you start. I knew the name of Braid. If it's a good game, by word of mouth or reviews you are sure to have heard of it. Otherwise you are just demoing game after game in the hope one is good. And there is a LOT of shit to trawl through. Why would I do that when I could be playing Skyrim? As new titles come out they filter to the top, and reviews of games are readily visible. They're also sorted into what type of game they are. The kinds of games at throwaway prices like a pound DO have their own section, and let's face it they're the only ones that it would be reasonable to throw money at without knowing little about it. I'm somewhat negative towards the demos for very short titles, if only because for some like stacking and costume quest you lose everything if you don't buy it within the game in that session. If you have to enter a PSN card to get funds you have to quit out and do it all again.
Happenstance Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 Not everyone is as well informed about games as we are, not everyone will know the titles of games before they go into the store. You seem to be thinking about it from your own personal needs rather than practical needs for everyone.
Aimless Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) The Store is less cohesive than the Marketplace, but I feel that's somewhat inevitable given how much the PS3 has transformed from a functionality stand point. I imagine Vita's Live Areas — where leaderboards, user comments and DLC are instantly accessible from a game's launch screen — give a good indication of how the PS4 will improve in this regard; in many ways the PS3's launch was the fall from grace Sony needed. For the record you can view PSN content based on popularity, though. Top Sellers is one of the first level options. Anyway, the crux of my general argument is that the PS3 and 360 are so similar I don't see why people get so heated about the small discrepancies. It's like the whole left stick situation: it makes no difference to me whether I have to move my thumb 15 degrees up or 15 degrees down, both are 'unnatural' yet perfectly comfortable. Edited November 24, 2011 by Aimless
Sheikah Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 Not everyone is as well informed about games as we are, not everyone will know the titles of games before they go into the store. You seem to be thinking about it from your own personal needs rather than practical needs for everyone. Of course we should think about our own needs! We were talking about personal opinions as to why we do/do not like certain stores. We are well informed, so there is no real need for this for us. Who cares what Billy from down the road needs? If you don't need it, I don't see a reason to knock it for not being there. Plus there's no real reason why anyone with internet access couldn't google best PSN games or similar before pissing a fiver down the drain.
Cube Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 Besides, just using Xbox.com is far superior than using the stores on either console.
Oxigen_Waste Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 Strongly disagree, the right analogue stick is used by the overwhelming majority of 3D games, and it's used a lot because adjusting camera is just as vital as moving. Of course, I never argued otherwise. Hell, I'm such a control freak with the camera, I'm constantly changing it... but the point is, it's used in a secondary function... (usually camera adjusting), the face buttons wouldn't make sense that far down.
Sheikah Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 I wouldn't consider it secondary to buttons, it gets used more than the buttons. Either way it makes little difference where it is for me.
Oxigen_Waste Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 I wouldn't consider it secondary to buttons, it gets used more than the buttons. Either way it makes little difference where it is for me. C'mon, no it doesn't. It does by me, but by the majority of people it certainly does not... Indeed, thouh, the stick placement is the least of my woes about the DS3.
Sheikah Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 C'mon, no it doesn't. It does by me, but by the majority of people it certainly does not... It does though. If you don't move the right stick, essentially the left stick means nothing. Forward in the left stick is only relative to the direction you are facing, and if you face a certain direction but don't turn the camera, you're blind to where you're going. So it's undoubtedly used a lot by the vast majority of gamers. Also factor in the progression of R1 now becoming a common attack button, and not just for shooters, and the typical old triangle square circle cross aren't getting the same use as they used to.
Oxigen_Waste Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 It does though. If you don't move the right stick, essentially the left stick means nothing. Forward in the left stick is only relative to the direction you are facing, and if you face a certain direction but don't turn the camera, you're blind to where you're going. So it's undoubtedly used a lot by the vast majority of gamers. Also factor in the progression of R1 now becoming a common attack button, and not just for shooters, and the typical old triangle square circle cross aren't getting the same use as they used to. Sure they are, they're still used as the main buttons by the vast majority of games. There's exceptions like Demon's Souls, etc, but they're just the exception that proves the rule. Look, it's really simple, I'm not saying people don't use it, but the positioning reflects how much they are to be used, and for all effects and purposes there's no denying the fact that the right stick is in a secondary position... just look at the evolution of controllers, all buttons and sticks were initially positioned in the position that now corresponds to the face buttons, when in relation to the hand. Then, as the demand for more buttons arose and 3D took over from 2D, controllers started reshapping themselves, and D-Pads, now with a mostly secondary function, were replaced by analogs and relocated to a secondary position on the controller... It's the whole reason the N64 controller was designed the way it was, since the Dpad was still a big thing but now shared dues with an analog, they created a 3-way controller, ensuring you could use both with the proper positioning. Then, the Dpad became obsolete and was relegated to a secondary position... Just look up the DC controller or GC. The PS controller is the only controller who doesn't follow that rule, and the only reason for that is iconic symbolism of the brand, since it's pretty much studied that the hands rest more comfortably on the face button/Dpad position (let's call position A) then on the dual analog's positions (position B). Also, stop being foolish, of course the face buttons get a lot more use than the right analog in pretty much any game except shooters! There are exceptions, yes, but we're discussing majority here.
Daft Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 My hands are massive so I don't really have a problem with any controller. It took a couple weeks to get used to the Dual Shock but I love everything about it except the absolutely dire triggers. I feel like I'm going to break them every time I press them down.
Sheikah Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 Also, stop being foolish, of course the face buttons get a lot more use than the right analog in pretty much any game except shooters! There are exceptions, yes, but we're discussing majority here. You're ignoring the truth again. If you don't continuously adjust the right stick the left stick is near useless in the vast majority of 3D games. Camera control dictates direction of movement. That's why it's used more than face buttons.
Oxigen_Waste Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 You're ignoring the truth again. If you don't continuously adjust the right stick the left stick is near useless in the vast majority of 3D games. Camera control dictates direction of movement. That's why it's used more than face buttons. I'm not ignoring anything, I just don't think that's the case, at all! Vast majority? Pretty much all sim and racing games are out, sports games are out, fighters are out... hell, all fixed viewpoint camera games like God of war, Little Big Planet are out. Basically, any game that isn't in 3rd person is completely out! And even then, there are plenty of games in which the right stick isn't even used for the camera, but instead use the zelda system (one button recenters the camera behind you). I remember playing Wind Waker and only noticing that you could adjust the camera with the C-stick like 3 or so dungeons into the game, and I was a seasoned gamer by then! Again, the issue here is that you seem to assume you and me are the majority... most people don't really tweak the camera that much... Hell, my housemate has been playing uncharted 3, and I recommended he played it with the 360 cross adapter, which has all these on off options and he only noticed he was playing with the right stick by the time he actually had to use a gun! I see you use the sticks as I use them... I pretty much always move forward (up) on the left stick and actually steer my character with the right stick, but that's because I (and you, apparently), preffer to actually enjoy the scenery and surroundings, most people only really use the camera when they get stuck out of view or something. And gamers like us, fluent in the "grammar" of it all are like a 3rd of the user base, worldwide... hell, Nintendo scrapped the idea to include a second stick on the wiimote because the casual gamers are confused by them, to this day. Anyway, this is getting completely derailed, because... A - even IF we did use the camera more than the action buttons, manipulating the camera is still a secondary function when compared to the action button. Movement and actions are primary, camera manipulation is secondary. The way you and I play, make the camera kind of like primary, because we incoporate it into movement... but the mass users only really use the camera as a last resort, judging by pretty much everyone I know except me and a few other "hardcore" gamers. B - What the hell does this even have to do with the positioning of things on a controller? And why does it matter, in this context of "which controller is better" since they both have the same design on the right side of things?
jayseven Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 Face buttons are used to actually play a game - iteract with the environment, perform moves generally, y'know, play the game. The right analogue, for all intents and purposes, is easily argued as merely 'tweaking'. Take it to the extremes; if you took away the face buttons but left the stick then most games would be unplayable. Take away the right stick and leave the face buttons and you'll be greatly peeved and feel restricted, but you'd certainly get a lot more done.
Sheikah Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) I'm not ignoring anything, I just don't think that's the case, at all! Vast majority? Pretty much all sim and racing games are out, sports games are out, fighters are out... hell, all fixed viewpoint camera games like God of war, Little Big Planet are out. These don't fall into the vast majority/ high popularity games these days. Sure, some are popular, but not as popular as most games that are played. Maybe football, but this usually amounts to one title a year compared to several titles that don't use an overhead view. Basically, any game that isn't in 3rd person is completely out! Or first person. Which is basically most games. Again, the issue here is that you seem to assume you and me are the majority... most people don't really tweak the camera that much... Hell, my housemate has been playing uncharted 3, and I recommended he played it with the 360 cross adapter, which has all these on off options and he only noticed he was playing with the right stick by the time he actually had to use a gun! Actually the majority of people (as demonstrated by sales) love games like CoD, battlefield and the like. These games require use of the second stick heavily, so I'd be extremely surprirsed if the majority of gamers weren't familiar with rotating the second stick like your friend. Anyway, this is getting completely derailed, because... A - even IF we did use the camera more than the action buttons, manipulating the camera is still a secondary function when compared to the action button. Movement and actions are primary, camera manipulation is secondary. The way you and I play, make the camera kind of like primary, because we incoporate it into movement... but the mass users only really use the camera as a last resort, judging by pretty much everyone I know except me and a few other "hardcore" gamers. Now that doesn't make any sense. Surely if you're using the camera more than you are pressing say square to perform the odd melee or reload, it makes sense to put it in a more prominent position? I don't care what's secondary or primary, just what I use the most. Reason for me debating this - I'm just pointing out that while the 360 pad is being heralded for having the analogue stick in a 'better' place, it actually has one stick used incredibly often in a place that is apparently 'awkward' - so awkward, no one bats an eyelid about stretching the thumb an extra millimieter to reach it! Edited November 25, 2011 by Sheikah
Oxigen_Waste Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 These don't fall into the vast majority/ high popularity games these days. Sure, some are popular, but not as popular as most games that are played. Maybe football, but this usually amounts to one title a year compared to several titles that don't use an overhead view. Football once a year x2 since it's fifa and pes, plus Gran turismo, need for speed, the whole motorstorm bunch... then, you have north america which is like half the world's market, where the NBA, WWE and NFL games sell tons of copies. That's a very significant portion of games, most of them with yearly incursions... Or first person. Which is basically most games. Actually the majority of people (as demonstrated by sales) love games like CoD, battlefield and the like. These games require use of the second stick heavily, so I'd be extremely surprirsed if the majority of gamers weren't familiar with rotating the second stick like your friend. You could be a lawyer, the way you try to manipulate words, you could. The whole discussion started on the premise of "apart from shooters". The point here is, the majority of players (not the majoritiy of gamers, there's a big difference), doesn't really use the right stick all that much when it comes to games other than shooters. Now that doesn't make any sense. Surely if you're using the camera more than you are pressing say square to perform the odd melee or reload, it makes sense to put it in a more prominent position? I don't care what's secondary or primary, just what I use the most. You use the face buttons the most. How that is even up for debate I do not understand... Every single game out for the damn console uses the face buttons, the menus use the face buttons. The right stick is only given functions in like 75% (completely random number, out of the top of my head) of games. The face buttons are given functions in like 99% of games... plust, you couldn't even put the face buttons where the right stick is, because not only would they be in a very inaccessible position, they would simply not even fit there whilst maintaining the proper distance between each other. Reason for me debating this - I'm just pointing out that while the 360 pad is being heralded for having the analogue stick in a 'better' place, it actually has one stick used incredibly often in a place that is apparently 'awkward' - so awkward, no one bats an eyelid about stretching the thumb an extra millimieter to reach it! I'm not saying it's awkward... it's just not as comfortable as if it were reversed. The primary positioning is the position in which the hand naturally rests, that's all there is to it, really. But it would make no sense to have the right stick reversed with the face buttons! However, it also makes no sense for the Dpad to be where it is on the PS3 controller. I like that it is where it is, because it automatically means that any game that is supposed to be played with a Dpad is a game I'll automatically have a good controller to play with on the PS3 (let's face it, the thing just work well with 2D!), it's just that, considering all the games out for it, it makes very little sense to keep this 2D days aesthetic, but at this point, it's become a symbol so it'll never change, probably... Again, this isn't nitpicking, the placement isn't even something I personally feel is off, as I'm a guitarist and can't even feel any sort of strain whatsoever on my hands... my gripes with the DS3 are the sticks themselves, which are a bit too loose for my liking and the R2/L2 issue. As for the controller being heralded for stick placement, that's not it... at all... it's pretty much heralded because the sticks are much more precise, in contrast to the DS3's looseness and huge dead zone... and because of the triggers. There's no denying the triggers are better, there's no denying the sticks are more responsive, that's just how it is (there's also no denying that the 360's Dpad is torture)... Now, wether the sticks being more responsive is a good thing or a bad thing, is highly subjective, as some people preffer the DS3 feel, as it flows better, in contrast to the 360's constant need for little nudges. Most preffer the nudges, though, as they're just more precise. As far as stick placement goes, I don't really think it makes that much of a difference, but people in general seem to prefer the 360 way, myself included. Except for Katamari... Enough of this!!! My only point is, if Sony would work on their controller a bit, and make it more like the 360's, the PS3 would be my main console... I know I represent a very tiny portion of market, but their losing a bit of business by not changing the thing.
Sheikah Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 Football once a year x2 since it's fifa and pes, plus Gran turismo, need for speed, the whole motorstorm bunch... then, you have north america which is like half the world's market, where the NBA, WWE and NFL games sell tons of copies. That's a very significant portion of games, most of them with yearly incursions... You could be a lawyer, the way you try to manipulate words, you could. The whole discussion started on the premise of "apart from shooters". The point here is, the majority of players (not the majoritiy of gamers, there's a big difference), doesn't really use the right stick all that much when it comes to games other than shooters. Don't you think controllers are designed based on the most played games, including shooters? Even though you listed all them games, there's at least 3-4 games for every one of those that people get where it's a 3D camera controllable game. You use the face buttons the most. How that is even up for debate I do not understand... Every single game out for the damn console uses the face buttons, the menus use the face buttons. The right stick is only given functions in like 75% (completely random number, out of the top of my head) of games. The face buttons are given functions in like 99% of games... plust, you couldn't even put the face buttons where the right stick is, because not only would they be in a very inaccessible position, they would simply not even fit there whilst maintaining the proper distance between each other. Now who's the word twisting lawyer? :p Since when does number of functions ascribed to the buttons relate to their frequency of use? Relative to turning the camera so that you can move, you rarely open the menu or what have you. Enough of this!!! My only point is, if Sony would work on their controller a bit, and make it more like the 360's, the PS3 would be my main console... I know I represent a very tiny portion of market, but their losing a bit of business by not changing the thing. I think the controller is fine, my whole point about the second stick is that it gets more use than buttons on a total input basis, yet no one thinks it's difficult to reach or the like. So there's really no fuss to be made about the left stick being further down.
Cube Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 It would just be crazy to reach over a stick to the face buttons. Whereas a D-pad is rarely used these days.
Sheikah Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 You're reaching over face buttons to get to the stick. All the time. I'm curious, what's crazy about it?
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