Shying away from change

[DemonHunter]

Why is it that with some franchises we immediately shy away from change? Take the Legend of Zelda for example. Would we cry if Nintendo used the Zelda universe to create a racing game, an FPS, a puzzle game etc? Would the idea of a new game called Hyrule Lon Lon horse racing sound like blasphemy in the world of Zelda? Or an FPS called Call of Ganon where Link or another character picks up his duel wielding crossbow and sets out shooting every moblin in Hyrule, whilst calling down rays of the goddess to pummel his enemies from above or taking cover whilst lobbing bombs through a village window?

Surely if the game was kept in context with the already established world then visiting familiar settings or characters would be a joy?

No one complained when Mario left his platforming roots and became a doctor or a kart racing champion so what makes Link (Using the Zelda franchise as an example) any different? Is he a prisoner to the fans who demand that he stays in his current position? Link’s crossbow training actually turned out to be a fun title (short admittedly, but still fun).

There are so many mini games and features in the Zelda universe it makes me wonder why you couldn’t have something like Hyrule festival Championship, which would involve Zora racing, Goron Bowling, Hylian archery, Lon Lon horse racing, Zelda bass fishing etc. All these games fleshed out a bit could be fantastic and fun to play, just as the mini games are.

I’m not talking about ditching the whole epic Zelda adventure, no one wants that. All I’m trying to say is, it would be nice to see people let down their gaming guards for a while and let some franchises breath and to try something new without complaining that it would ruin the franchises name or milking it. Franchises get milked no matter how you look at them, that’s why they are franchises.

What do you all think? Would you like the idea of a Zelda FPS or another genre? Do you think that Zelda games should always be adventure titles? Speak up people

[killer kirby]

A thread that I thought looked interesting at first, and then to read the meaning of the thread and then I only see Zelda Zelda Zelda Zelda. I fear this thread will de-rail badly.

 

buuuut Nintendo have done lots of different types of genre changes of series from the Mario series, Metroid series and even Zelda series and many more other series.

[DemonHunter]

Forgive me, I was merely using Zelda as an example as I said. Feel free to post your thoughts on other franchises. What if the Metroid universe got turned into a futuristic football game? Or the cast of F-Zero characters got turned into a 3rd person shooter similar to Gears of War or something?

All I am trying to see is how people would feel if their favorite franchises took a drastic side step from the norm. We all remember Wind Wakers reaction and that was just a graphical change from a tech demo.

[Serebii]

Simple answer; Franchise Fatigue.

 

If you milk the franchise for all its worth, making spinoffs like crazy, it risks saturating the market and making it not as important when a main game comes

[Zechs Merquise]

Forgive me, I was merely using Zelda as an example as I said. Feel free to post your thoughts on other franchises. What if the Metroid universe got turned into a futuristic football game? Or the cast of F-Zero characters got turned into a 3rd person shooter similar to Gears of War or something?

All I am trying to see is how people would feel if their favorite franchises took a drastic side step from the norm. We all remember Wind Wakers reaction and that was just a graphical change from a tech demo.

 

I'd love to see Nintendo of America assemble a team to make a gritty FPS or a 3rd person shooter. But I certainly wouldn't want to see the game filled with regular Nintendo characters. If Nintendo were to make a game like that I'd want a new IP and a new cast.

[DemonHunter]

Thanks for the reply Zechs Merquise; so why would you prefer a new IP over an existing one? What if the F-Zero universe was used to create something similar to Mass Effect? Would you feel joy in that fact that you could visit somewhere like Mute City yourself? Or would you just not like the idea of an F-Zero RPG Adventure because of its racing roots?

[Pit-Jr]

I was thinking how cool a Zelda deathmatch game would be just the other day. To be fair , i was drinking at the time, but it could work!

[Beverage]

Thanks for the reply Zechs Merquise; so why would you prefer a new IP over an existing one? What if the F-Zero universe was used to create something similar to Mass Effect? Would you feel joy in that fact that you could visit somewhere like Mute City yourself? Or would you just not like the idea of an F-Zero RPG Adventure because of its racing roots?

 

Y'know, you seem like a member of staff from NINTENDO who is gathering data for possible projects.

 

Listen up dude, the NINTENDO 3DS better live up to my expectations! Ya hear me?

[Murr]

Thanks for the reply Zechs Merquise; so why would you prefer a new IP over an existing one? What if the F-Zero universe was used to create something similar to Mass Effect? Would you feel joy in that fact that you could visit somewhere like Mute City yourself? Or would you just not like the idea of an F-Zero RPG Adventure because of its racing roots?

 

Wow, I've never thought of it that way before, that actually does sound pretty cool.

 

 

 

Please don't do a cross over racing game though with Nintendo characters.

 

Smash Bro's is awesome!! But I don't want to see Captain Falcon lining up against Fox McCloud's Arwing, Samus Morphed into a ball and Link on Epona..

 

Wait...or do i???

[DemonHunter]

lol not quite Beverage, I'm merely interested in peoples opinions and trying to get some grasp on how gamers think when it comes to long established franchises. Imagination is important when it comes to the videogame industry and it's interesting to see how gamers react to change.

[Zechs Merquise]

Thanks for the reply Zechs Merquise; so why would you prefer a new IP over an existing one? What if the F-Zero universe was used to create something similar to Mass Effect? Would you feel joy in that fact that you could visit somewhere like Mute City yourself? Or would you just not like the idea of an F-Zero RPG Adventure because of its racing roots?

 

I'd prefer a new IP because I don't like whoring out big names to sell what are essentially new IPs. For example when Nintendo tried to sell connectivity with a four player Zelda game in my opinion it was wrong.

 

I love big Nintendo franchises, but I also want NEW nintendo franchises to appear. I don't want to see Nintendo try to sell new ideas with a Zelda or F-Zero tag slapped on just to ensure a few extra sales.

[DemonHunter]

I see, so you feel quite strongly against established franchises being milked or exploited due to the idea that you feel a company is just trying to cash in. Interesting; If you don't mind me asking Zechs, is this down to your love for the franchise or a personal hatred towards said franchises being milk just for profit?

[The Peeps]

That F-Zero suggestion was pretty cool. I think some franchises lend themselves better to spin-offs than others though.

 

I could totally see a mass effect style game in the F-Zero universe, it would actually fit really well. However, I don't think an FPS would suit Link or the zelda series. You could probably do it with Metroid or Starfox though but like Zechs, I'd prefer to see a new IP developed if Nintendo are going to make a new game that doesn't necessarily fit their existing franchises.

 

I don't see what would be wrong with Nintendo bringing out a stand-alone FPS (for example) with unknown characters. It doesn't then have to become a series.

[DemonHunter]

I look at a lot of spin off titles that have come out over the years and the reception that they get. In reality you have to take in consideration the developer creating said title I guess, even a good developer can fail to bring something new to the table from an existing franchise.

Look at Star Fox Adventures like you mentioned, Front Mission Evolved even House of the Dead (Thinking of Typing of the Dead). All took those core franchises and went down a different route. Whether that was a good thing or not is down to the individual to decide, but should these type of games ever exist? Would Star Fox have been better in a different genre instead of an adventure game? I remember screaming at my monitor when Dinosaur Planet had been replaced with the Star Fox brand, why did I get angry? I guess we all love and hold dear to us such franchises and as I'm learning here on this thread, we don't like to see said franchises milked or changed to much. Yet imagination and change is good, let us hope new IP's still come out taking risks and even old IP's continue to take risks instead of worrying about money.

[daftada]

Give me a kingdom hearts style action-rpg crossover with characters and locales frol Nintendo's back catalogue and I'd be a happy chappy.

[jayseven]

Haven't there been some zelda spin-offs that vaguely fit the bill - that tingle game and tetra's thingum?

 

I've always felt that f-zero, with such a massive cast, has bundles of interesting story to explore that simply does not come across well in simply a racing game. The entire f-zero world is tinged with darkness that has always been appealing.

 

On a side-note, look at Banjo Kazooie - Nuts and Bolts. An existing IP shoehorned into a different (albeit not radically so,) style of game. Did Not Pay Off. Would've been better as a new, original IP.

 

Not the best of replies I'm afraid - but the OP is a great thought-starter. Look forward to reading replies.

[The Peeps]

I thought nuts and bolts was great

[Fused King]

DemonHunter, I absolutely would NOT care about any different approach to a respective franchise AS LONG as effort is put into it.

 

A Kirby-RPG would be most welcome.

[darksnowman]

A Kirby-RPG would be most welcome.

 

Would be hilarious.

 

How might you branch out Little Kings Story into a different genre?

[Konfucius]

The question always is if it fits into the existing game world. Mario has the unique difference of being the platform mascot and so everyone expects to see him in every game. Let's take the Zelda example though. If you suddenly had a serious Zelda horse-racing game it would feel completely out of context if they included characters known from the other Zelda games and if they didn't everyone would wonder what the connection to Zelda is.

Also the game characters (again except Mario) developed more of a character and backstory over the years which makes it harder for followers of the series to accept to see them in something completely different.

 

But doing something different within the established gameworld should be fine I guess. For instance a Harvest Moon type of game would fit the Zelda franchise because there were always other people around who had to just mind their own business.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Konfucius

[DemonHunter]

Now people are using their imaginations I like it. A Zelda title like Harvest Moon is appealing and could definately work. Or maybe even an Animal Crossing style title called Hyrule Crossing lol Spend the day sorting out Kakariko village whilst visting Hyrule Town by horse and coach in order to meet friends and buy new items. Fused King made the point that he more and welcomes change as long as the effort is put in, which is understandable. If you knew that F-Zero Effect (play of Mass Effect) would be a good game, would you still shun it because it's no longer a racer? Are we just scared that a developer would ruin a franchise by trying something new with it? We've all been stung in the past (Let's not mention Sonic) maybe that's a lingering factor.

Also the thought of a Kirby RPG brings a smile to my face (we'll forget about Kirby's air ride, which wasnt great let's be honest).

[Grazza]

Firstly, welcome to DemonHunter.

 

I think there are three types of game here. The first is the humble spin-off, which I have no problem with whatsoever, as they are never developed by the "real" team anyway. Metroid Prime Pinball is my favourite. Your suggested "Hyrule Festival Games" or Zelda-themed racing, horse-racing or puzzle games would fit into this category.

 

The second category is the original idea that gets shoehorned with an existing franchise, which is allegedly what happened with Dinosaur Planet/Starfox Adventures. I can see why people are against this, because in principal, good ideas and designs may be forfeited as it has to confirm to the world of an existing character.

 

The third category, which proves you are onto something, is the fresh idea for an existing franchise. If you haven't played Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath, check it out. Essentially, the side-scrolling Oddworld gameplay was replaced with an FPS that fitted perfectly into the existing world. Your crossbow is loaded with bizarre, living creatures and you have to catch various outlaws.

 

However, in general I think change is overrated. I know people don't want to turn this into a Zelda thread, but I'll just say this: the highest-regarded Zeldas tend to be Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker - in other words, the ones that utilised new, powerful hardware to improve the series in all sorts of ways. Whilst many of the other games are good, there's nothing quite like seeing what a new generation of machine can do for your favourite franchise. If there's a general malaise about Zelda at the moment, it's because it seems it's gone AWOL. Nintendo have handled Mario well this generation but who'd have thought we'd be waiting even longer for Skyward Sword than Twilight Princess? With hardware very similar to what they released Wind Waker on, Zelda has effectively been stuck in the same generation for a decade. Who could blame the development team if they weren't inspired to come up with anything brilliant yet? Mark my words, the next Zelda that gets as much acclaim as OOT or WW will be the first HD one, and yes there will be change, but it'll be natural improvement that comes with a new machine.

[Jonnas]

Okay, I haven't read every post, but I caught the general gist of the thread. Welcome to the forums, Demonhunter, I see a glimpse of excellency in you already

 

Spin-offs and major changes (and I mean stylistically, gameplay-related or even genre-shifting) aren't necessarily bad. They can be very good, in fact. They can be better than the original main series (see: Super Mario Bros, Donkey Kong Country, Yoshi's Island).

They can only achieve this level of quality, however, if the main concept for the spin-off works well with the pre-established setting and characters.

 

I'll address some of the points made in this thread:

 

-Mario spin-offs: The Mario series includes some of the best examples of what I'm trying to convey. The Mario universe is, and always has been, pretty cartoony. When the main character grows using mushrooms and throws fireballs thanks to flowers, you know that the rules of logic can be thrown out of the window, allowing for plenty of versatility and expansion.

Thus, the main series platformers have involved flying airships, Yoshis, magic paintings, tropical resorts and space adventures, and no one bats an eye.

Mario has also delved into puzzle games, party games, sports games, racing games, RPGs (two distinct series at that. And they're both brilliant), a pinball game and a DDR game. Every single one of the spin-offs I've mentioned embrace the cartoonish, zany nature of the mushroom universe, no spin off will ever abandon this. This remains true, regardless of the quality of the spin-offs.

On the other hand, so much exposure brings market saturation like Serebii mentioned. You don't want a single franchise to dominate every genre.

 

-Zelda suggestions: The reason the genre-shifts suggested in the OP wouldn't work is because, put simply, they wouldn't fit a Zelda game.

A gritty FPS does not fit a medieval setting, a zany FPS (like Grazza mentioned) would be too crazy for Zelda's setting (better use another IP, or make a new one), a racing game is limited to Gorons rolling, horse-racing and Zora's swimming (and maybe some other vehicles), which sounds better as a minigame, honestly (not to mention it would have to compete with Mario Kart...). A party game has plenty of potential, though, I'll give you that.

 

-Mass F-Zero Effect: Awesome idea! I don't think anyone would shun this, it has so much potential. If there's any franchise that could be turned into a Sci-Fi RPG, it's this one.

 

Also, I should probably mention I love Pokémon Pinball. The concept joined the best of both worlds so perfectly.

 

And there's potential for so much more. Pokémon fighting games (Power Stone style), Kirby RPGs, a Zelda MMO (Metroid and F-Zero also work), etc.

[DemonHunter]

Excellent post Grazza, I think were all starting to get onto the same wave length and are narrowing down what we would like or find acceptable.

Breaking down the key elements of spins offs like you did has shown us what is possible and what could go wrong, especially your Star Fox Adventure comment.

The mention of Strangers Wrath (which I have played ) is a prime example of how an established IP can take a dramatic change in genre and still capture the essence of the established world and characters.

Another one of our biggest hurdles is trying to break our minds away from what we perceive as the norm for a franchise.

Let us go back to the core essence of this subject and try to break down everything that we can think of in terms of spin offs, fresh approaches and humble spin offs as you so aptly named it. What other titles like Star Fox Adventures fit the same bill? And let us try to think of other titles like Strangers Wrath that have made such a good transition. Remember, Imagination is the key, we must look past the established norm and think outside the box

[Zechs Merquise]

I see, so you feel quite strongly against established franchises being milked or exploited due to the idea that you feel a company is just trying to cash in. Interesting; If you don't mind me asking Zechs, is this down to your love for the franchise or a personal hatred towards said franchises being milk just for profit?

 

It's a mixture of the two. I hate seeing franchises being milked because I love them! But also I do like to see new IPs!