Aimless Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 I didn't specify the hardware was the issue with Linux, I said Sony were looking to cut production costs wherever possible. That includes offering tech support, signing drivers, ensuring hardware compatability, etc. I don't doubt that Linux works on the slim, but you're talking about a hack worked on for free: officially supporting something will always incur costs. And no I don't have a spreadsheet, go ask Sony for one if you're that interested. As for the ramifications you mentioned, I don't think I really need to explain them to you as they're pretty obvious. Still, here are some hypothetical — but realistic — situations: Zero-effort piracy eats into sales of New Game X. Publisher confidence in the IP is rocked and judges it no longer worth pursuing; decides to be less adventurous in future. Online Game Y is released to rave reviews, offering one of the best online multiplayer experiences in years. Unfortunately user end hacks ruin the experience for many, the game's population dies on its arse. Efforts are made to reclaim the situation but things are too far gone, the community doesn't recover and ultimately support for the game is cut short. The excellent Self-Published Game Z is released via PSN. It fits snugly on a modest USB stick leading to pirated downloads vastly outstripping actual units sold. The 4-man team that created it don't quite meet their profitability numbers and are forced to close up shop. Publisher A is upset that it's paying royalties to put games on Sony's machine whilst the authorisation keys are public knowledge. Negotiations stall and the publisher lessens support for the platform, hurting the choice of honest and dishonest consumers alike. You can certainly say none of the above are the end of the world — I'm not claiming the PS3 is doomed, there will always be plenty of honest customers — but the videogame industry is in enough of a mess without people exacerbating things, especially when the counterweight advantages don't add up. I've as much of a problem with custom firmware that has zero impact on others as I do with you taking a claw hammer to your PS3, which is to say none at all. Hell, go nuts and eat McDonalds every day for a year, it's not really any of my business. However, this situation clearly does affect me, at least indirectly: the moment a single online match I'm in is compromised or a game I highly enjoyed is rendered not worth supporting due to piracy, suddenly hacking becomes my problem as it's impinging on the experience I paid for. On top of that, I love games. I also really love that it's viable for people to make games, that some studios can afford to stay open and take risks with the medium. I've a vested interest in games companies being successful because without them my hobby — my passion, really — wouldn't exist. What do hacks offer me? Linux. A cool media hub. MAME. Wait, couldn't I do all that stuff with a cheaply built PC, the greatest open platform in the world? So I'd get all the positives of a hacked console without the wide-reaching negatives, all for the price of a small personal investment. That would probably be the less selfish choice, wouldn't it?
Tissue Town Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Hacking =/= Piracy. I'm glad hackers exist. Can't wait for them to do the 3DS
The Lillster Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 As for the ramifications you mentioned, I don't think I really need to explain them to you as they're pretty obvious. Still, here are some hypothetical — but realistic — situations: Zero-effort piracy eats into sales of New Game X. Publisher confidence in the IP is rocked and judges it no longer worth pursuing; decides to be less adventurous in future. How exactly do the publishers know that piracy was the direct cause of poor sales? It’s not like publishers have some kind of super human ability, where they can read the thought patterns of pirates and buyers that make their pronouncements on this, hypothetical situation, more definitive. A sensible publisher would be trying to reason out what happened from ALL the available evidence not the immediate. Online Game Y is released to rave reviews, offering one of the best online multiplayer experiences in years. Unfortunately user end hacks ruin the experience for many, the game's population dies on its arse. Efforts are made to reclaim the situation but things are too far gone, the community doesn't recover and ultimately support for the game is cut short. The excellent Self-Published Game Z is released via PSN. It fits snugly on a modest USB stick leading to pirated downloads vastly outstripping actual units sold. The 4-man team that created it don't quite meet their profitability numbers and are forced to close up shop.Publisher A is upset that it's paying royalties to put games on Sony's machine whilst the authorisation keys are public knowledge. Negotiations stall and the publisher lessens support for the platform, hurting the choice of honest and dishonest consumers alike. You’ve got to understand that when people do pirate things, it’s very unlikely they pirate everything. For example; you might buy a new copy of Dead Space 2, buy a used copy of Modern Warfare 2 and rent a copy of Harry Potter. People will buy what they have an interest in, and have some other avenue to experiencing the periphery. The people who pirate everything shouldn't be considered because it's very likely they never intended to buy Game Z anyway. You can certainly say none of the above are the end of the world — I'm not claiming the PS3 is doomed, there will always be plenty of honest customers — but the videogame industry is in enough of a mess without people exacerbating things, especially when the counterweight advantages don't add up. I've as much of a problem with custom firmware that has zero impact on others as I do with you taking a claw hammer to your PS3, which is to say none at all. Hell, go nuts and eat McDonalds every day for a year, it's not really any of my business. However, this situation clearly does affect me, at least indirectly: the moment a single online match I'm in is compromised or a game I highly enjoyed is rendered not worth supporting due to piracy, suddenly hacking becomes my problem as it's impinging on the experience I paid for. I’ve addressed your piracy arguments several times in this post already. Regarding your ‘online matches being compromised’ remark; that was already possible before the PS3 got hacked, by either using Save game hacks: VIDEO EVIDENCE Or by glitching the game. On top of that, I love games. I also really love that it's viable for people to make games, that some studios can afford to stay open and take risks with the medium. I've a vested interest in games companies being successful because without them my hobby — my passion, really — wouldn't exist. Some people pirate, get over it! I can't really argue against your sensationalist view. What do hacks offer me? Linux. A cool media hub. MAME. Wait, couldn't I do all that stuff with a cheaply built PC, the greatest open platform in the world? So I'd get all the positives of a hacked console without the wide-reaching negatives, all for the price of a small personal investment. That would probably be the less selfish choice, wouldn't it? I would rather save my money, time and space, by having an all-in-one device under my TV, not to mention cut down on the electricity bill by only having to run one device instead of two. Here are my hypothetical arguments: (Definitely more realistic than what you wrote) Scenario #1 Hypothetical User 1 (HU1) is busy playing his favourite game until the game unexpectedly crashes. HU1 is forced to restart his console, but unfortunately the game will not load. He tries loading his other games but they don’t work either. He then realises that the disc drive laser is probably broken and he will need to buy a new one because he is no longer in warranty. HU1 realises that he won’t be able to play his game for at least a month because he has no money until then. Scenario #2 Hypothetical User 2 (HU2) is in the exact same situation as HU1, except HU2 is using custom firmware and can play games from his hard drive. So HU2 is able to save up for a new disc drive and at the same time, still enjoy playing his games. PS: Don’t talk to me like I’m an idiot.
Mundi Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 How exactly do the publishers know that piracy was the direct cause of poor sales? It’s not like publishers have some kind of super human ability, where they can read the thought patterns of pirates and buyers that make their pronouncements on this, hypothetical situation, more definitive. A sensible publisher would be trying to reason out what happened from ALL the available evidence not the immediate. There is no way of knowing without having to have to go out and ask every person who bought and pirated the game. Bad sales is something that publishers have to look into and hearing stuff like that more people pirated Alan Wake then bought it does not really help the whole "pirates wouldn't bought it anyway" argument. Especially when we are talking about a well received that had a lot of backing from its publisher. Thing is, people can argue all day and all week about the effects or lack of effects regarding piracy but that does not stop the fact that publishers are taking drastic measures to try and counter it. I name Spore, Bioshock and the just recently dropped Ubisoft protection system as an example. The first two being notorious for having a system where you could only install the game a limited number of times and a habit of refusing to work despite having a legal copy of the game and the third a system where having a constant internet connection is required to play their games. This of course did nothing to counter piracy, it infuriated the honest customer and the pirates found a way around the protection systems eventually My point being: Its the publishers that have the deciding power in this situation, if they think Piracy is a problem then they will go after it no matter how many clever anecdotes people can make about it. the developers reaction only serves to alienate the consumer so the blame lies at both parties, but the reaction would not be there if there was no one to provoke it.
heroicjanitor Posted January 14, 2011 Author Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) How exactly do the publishers know that piracy was the direct cause of poor sales? It’s not like publishers have some kind of super human ability, where they can read the thought patterns of pirates and buyers that make their pronouncements on this, hypothetical situation, more definitive. A sensible publisher would be trying to reason out what happened from ALL the available evidence not the immediate.[/b] Why do you think the psp has such a low attach rate? It's because people buy the hardware and then pirate the software. People are NOT buying psps just so they can listen to music or watch videos. Do you think people have the right to pirate things? They way you talk you act like piracy has no down sides. Sony tried to send Geohot $1 to prove he was taking donations and thereby making money from his work :p Edited January 14, 2011 by heroicjanitor
Aimless Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 Forget it, I'm out. I can't possibly discuss things with people genuinely claiming that having piracy is no worse for a platform and its games than not having it.
jayseven Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 Take it to extremes! If everyone pirated, then no games would be made because nobody would be buying them -- well, one guy would, before uploading it and distributing it to everyone else. if nobody pirated then there would be trillions of sales of the same copy. Lillster; your arguments may be valid to an extent, but the ultimate end to this whole scenario is that theoretically everyone could get every game for free. it is obvious that Sony would want to prevent this because computer gaming is a business. Your argument may be truthful or whatever, but it completely negates the point that piracy is bad for the producers, and that if the producers decide to stop producing, we don't get games. Whatever teh argument is for teh current pricing of games or the current standard of games, we only have these games because people have been busy buying games for generations. But from a personal angle; I'd love to own a PS3 now. I could get any game I want for free -- but I wouldn't cheat online, instead I'd be annoyed that others were cheating. Being able to use my console for things that aren't playing a game on a disc are, to me, luxuries, not something I should be demanding. Aimless posted hypothetical situations that are likely to occur in a money-driven world, where the publishers are run by money maniacs, not game fanatics, who are looking for any excuse to explain their lack of sales. If a game does badly on sony then the publishers can blame sony for having a hackable machine. Blah blah blah, I'm still waking up. Your argument makes political sense but lacks morality and reality. While I hate commercialism and thus love it when things are free, I am at least aware of the implications of hackers and how damaging to the industry it would be if everyone was pirating. Which is precisely what these hacks mean for the PS3. Everyone can pirate everything with no ramifications. I don't get how that isn't an alarm going off for you, too. The PS3 is condemned to deal with what will be an increase in pirates and a decrease in sales for the rest of the Ps3's lifecycle, and considering how pundits have predicted at least another 5 years in this generation's cycle, and also considering that the PS3 is the youngest of all three consoles; this has to be a problem on the wider scale than what you are seeing (which is whee free stuff!).
Rummy Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 Why do you think the psp has such a low attach rate? It's because people buy the hardware and then pirate the software. People are NOT buying psps just so they can listen to music or watch videos. Do you think people have the right to pirate things? They way you talk you act like piracy has no down sides. Sony tried to send Geohot $1 to prove he was taking donations and thereby making money from his work :p Someone did already mention the DS though, is that not rampant with the easiest piracy out there, yet still thriving as one of the best selling consoles of our time, possibly even ever? Wii piracy is not too hard either, but that's doing well too?
heroicjanitor Posted January 14, 2011 Author Posted January 14, 2011 Someone did already mention the DS though, is that not rampant with the easiest piracy out there, yet still thriving as one of the best selling consoles of our time, possibly even ever? Wii piracy is not too hard either, but that's doing well too? That's the point though the console sells a lot but in comparison game sales are way down. How is the Ds's attach rate? I know it is low but I think the psp's is lower since its demographic would contain more pirates.
Diageo Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 Clearly games sales are not down on nintendo games for the DS such as Pokemon or New Super Mario Bros, or even Mario Kart.
Debug Mode Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) GeoHotz on G4 Very interesting about the fact that the DMCA(Digital Millennium Copyright Act) isn't specific enough for the times that are coming ahead. It allows the jailbreaking of a mobile phone but doesn't reference what hardware is actually exempt. So either Sony is fucked and just plans to slightly dent the guys wallet with legal fee's, or is going to win and in turn have the DMCA re-written. Either way, even with the 'Terms & Conditions' included in the console (In the eyes of the law, it isn't a binding contract without a signature), what the guy has done is completely legal, despite the huge ramifications. The fact he takes donations is completely irrelevant. It's too wide of a term to possibly jump the gun and say "IT IS ILLEGAL. HE MAKES MONEY OFF THIS". I'd agree if he sold the information though. EDIT: The actual publishing of the keys is illegal, so that's probably the only thing he will be nailed for. Edited January 14, 2011 by Debug Mode
heroicjanitor Posted January 14, 2011 Author Posted January 14, 2011 Clearly games sales are not down on nintendo games for the DS such as Pokemon or New Super Mario Bros, or even Mario Kart. You can't quote specific examples, especially games like those. Get the total software sales and divide it by the hardware. If it's more than 5 I'll be surprised, but the last console to sell so greatly(ps2) had an attach rate of like 12. I hear that was pirated but not extensively.
Cube Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 EDIT: The actual publishing of the keys is illegal, so that's probably the only thing he will be nailed for. That's exactly what some of us are trying to say: it's not the hacking that's wrong - it's the publishing of the keys. That's the main thing that will cause piracy.
Debug Mode Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 That's exactly what some of us are trying to say: it's not the hacking that's wrong - it's the publishing of the keys. That's the main thing that will cause piracy. Ahhh fair play. Apparently the custom CFW does not allow ISO's to be booted, but I imagine it's a matter of time for an ISO loader to be developed for the PS3 much like the PSP-3000 & Go.
Pit-Jr Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 Now you can unlock all your trophys without having to play the game you just pirated. Great work hacker community!
Fierce_LiNk Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 Clearly games sales are not down on nintendo games for the DS such as Pokemon or New Super Mario Bros, or even Mario Kart. Those game will sell stupid amounts anyway. But, what about the lesser known games? Those lesser known companies are the ones who get affected a significant amount by piracy.
Debug Mode Posted January 15, 2011 Posted January 15, 2011 Now you can unlock all your trophys without having to play the game you just pirated. Great work hacker community! Haha they actually made this? Jesus christ. Ah well, it's up to the user. I'd understand if there was some form of a high score table for how many platinum trophies you may have and this was going to wreck the feature. But I don't think one exists, so no harm done.
Rummy Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 I get the impression a number of hackers do the hacks just for the sake of the hack itself, and that is usually to do something you are not supposed to be able to do. Like suddenly have all the trophies in a game! I doubt they did it for much reason other than that, but sometimes I'm not sure if people get that. Then again, I could be totally wrong, so maybe ignore me.
Debug Mode Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Well Sony has already fucked up step one, the Californian court it submitted the temporary restraining order to has ruled against it as the act was committed in New Jersey. I honestly think Sony has no chance. They have their remarkable team of lawyers, no doubt for an organisation that big. But this guy has lawyers throwing themselves at him and one vital fact that could completely fuck over Sony, the fact the EULA still isn't a legally binding contract without a signature. You have to buy the console, open it, plug it in and run it before you even get to some form of terms and conditions (I'm presuming the PS3 has a T&C menu that needs to be agreed to before the console can be played, but there may well not be one until you connect to PSN, much like the PSP). Even an American university is hosting the root keys of the PS3, as a professor there is adamant that no wrong doing has been done by publishing it, it only opens the device so people who had a right to run their own code on it now can. It's just the undesirable pirates that seem to fuck things up.
jayseven Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 I see similarities in the morality of this whole thing to the right to bear arms in america. Gun crime exists because there are guns! This is a fact. Hacks exist because there are hacks! Hacks can bring joy and interesting things, but also bad things! Guns can bring... well ok, maybe I should've used drugs in this analogy. Anyway! Short term; hacks can ruin the online experience. Long term; ps4.
Pit-Jr Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Bottom line is, people's livelihoods are being fucked with for sport and/or spite. If there's any justice, these bastard kids (and that American professor) will be sentenced to work exclusively at McDonald's until they learn a lesson about respecting other people's work.
McPhee Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) No, people's livelihoods are being fucked by the cheap bastards who won't pay for the entertainment that they are receiving. Nothing new there. It has nothing to do with the hackers, or "that American professor". They provided the tools, it's up to the moral backbone of each individual to decide if or how they should be used. I love the fact that people can now do whatever the hell they like and it's now someone else's/society's fault for allowing them to do it. What happened to having a conscience? Or being responsible for your own moral choices? The hammer can be used as a tool or a weapon. It's up to the individual that holds it to make that choice. Don't blame the Smith. Edited January 18, 2011 by McPhee
Daft Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 I don't get why you'd want to hack a PS3 when you could do much more on a PS3.
flameboy Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Well Sony has already fucked up step one, the Californian court it submitted the temporary restraining order to has ruled against it as the act was committed in New Jersey. I honestly think Sony has no chance. They have their remarkable team of lawyers, no doubt for an organisation that big. But this guy has lawyers throwing themselves at him and one vital fact that could completely fuck over Sony, the fact the EULA still isn't a legally binding contract without a signature. You have to buy the console, open it, plug it in and run it before you even get to some form of terms and conditions (I'm presuming the PS3 has a T&C menu that needs to be agreed to before the console can be played, but there may well not be one until you connect to PSN, much like the PSP). Even an American university is hosting the root keys of the PS3, as a professor there is adamant that no wrong doing has been done by publishing it, it only opens the device so people who had a right to run their own code on it now can. It's just the undesirable pirates that seem to fuck things up. URGH makes me sick, arseholes who think they have the right to run whatever they want a console that isn't open source for a reason...
McPhee Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) URGH makes me sick, arseholes who think they have the right to run whatever they want a console that isn't open source for a reason... URGH makes me sick, arseholes who think they have the right to stop people running whatever they want a console... I jest. My point is simple though. Right now it's pretty unclear who is right. The courts will decide on that outcome. Maybe it will go like the "mobile telephony" (AKA iPhone) case last year and it will be ruled that these people had every right to utilise the hardware they own in any (legal) way that they see fit. Or maybe the courts will decide they're in breach of the DMCA. Nobody knows right now. Edited January 18, 2011 by McPhee
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