Donkey Kong Country Returns

[killer kirby]

Emptiness doesn't mean nothing is happening, that the game is physically empty. Here, let me put it in terms you will understand

 

Ummm...ok, thanks for answering my question in full detail.

[darksnowman]

Ummm...ok, thanks for answering my question in full detail.

 

You know exactly what I mean though, even if you don't agree with it.

[killer kirby]

You know exactly what I mean though, even if you don't agree with it.

 

No, sadly I don't, the aspect on how everyone says that 'this game has no 'soul'' is really irritating me, same with the words 'magic' There is more life and events going on in one level in DKCR then there is in one whole game of either DKC1 2 and 3

[MindFreak]

I defeated the final boss yesterday and I must say:

 

This isn't Lylat Wars!

 

Now I look forward to doing the Gold Temple.

 

 

98 % cleared now. When this is over, I can either return to GoldenEye or start playing Epic Mickey and/or Sonic Colours.

[Hero-of-Time]

I defeated the final boss yesterday and I must say:

 

This isn't Lylat Wars!

 

Now I look forward to doing the Gold Temple.

 

 

Do a barrel roll!!

 

No, sadly I don't, the aspect on how everyone says that 'this game has no 'soul'' is really irritating me, same with the words 'magic' There is more life and events going on in one level in DKCR then there is in one whole game of either DKC1 2 and 3

 

This game has no soul.

 

A prime example of this is what I said when it first came out and what tapedeck said the other day and that is Cranky Kong. That character was funny as hell back in the originals, with witty lines and his constant nagging. Retro have made him into some form of living statue in this game, they may aswell have put in some other random pig to do his job.

 

I don't see what the problem is? The game is good, i've said many times it is, yet alot of you won't be happy until some of us bend over and say it's better than Rare's DKC games, but in our opinion it's simply not.

[Burny]

Lots of rose tinted nostalgia glasses I'd say. Sadly, the longer you play games, the more dull you become towards new games. You will always evaluate a new entry of a series against the others you've played. This only gets worse if you were young and easily impressed at the time you started playing games. The longer a series is around, the more you get that from fans. Metroid, Zelda, Mario, Final Fantasy, it doesn't matter.

 

Without having played DKCR (and no intention to do so at this point), if there is no "soul" in such details:

 

 

...then I don't know were "soul" is supposed to be. A slightly different "soul" than you had in the old games, but that's what you get from a different developer a decade later. When devs aren't allowed anymore to change things the way they think will help the game, then what creativity is left in developing sequels to a game is pretty much gone and they could as well get into general software developing.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Burny

[ReZourceman]

Lots of rose tinted nostalgia glasses I'd say.

 

Were we wearing them when we replayed the trilogy in 2010?

[darksnowman]

There is more life and events going on in one level in DKCR then there is in one whole game of either DKC1 2 and 3

 

Without having played DKCR (and no intention to do so at this point), if there is no "soul" in such details:

 

Its untangible what gives a game its soul, its heart. Its not how action packed it is Killer Kirby, but yes Burny, the little details do help, but its still more than that.

 

 

Were we wearing them when we replayed the trilogy in 2010?

 

Bingo! Like you, I replay these games far too frequently, be it from start to finish or just for a mess around. They never get old, do they? Of course its nostalgic but they do hold up beautifully or else y'know, we would have realised a long time ago to let the trilogy be a rose tinted memory.

[Burny]

 

Were we wearing them when we replayed the trilogy in 2010?

 

Absolutely. It's not like you are even able to put them off, when you played the games early in your gaming life.

 

Bingo! Like you, I replay these games far too frequently, be it from start to finish or just for a mess around. They never get old, do they?

And that's exactly the point. You've been playing the games for half your life and as they're excellent games, what impressions you got a decade ago remain to you. Those memories are the rose tinted glasses you'll never be able to put of. But someone starting out gaming with DKCR or even long time gamers who have never played the old games and are getting into DK with DKCR, will never get the impressions you got as a child.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Burny

[darksnowman]

And that's exactly the point. You've been playing the games for half your life and as they're excellent games, what impressions you got 12 years ago remain to you. But someone starting out gaming with DKCR or even long time gamers who have never played the old games and are getting into DK with DKCR, will never get the impressions you got as a child.

 

But due to our love for the original trilogy we've been hankering for a DKC 4 for years. No one wants Returns to be a glorious comeback for DK more than us guys that see its faults.

 

Heck, I've slagged off the GBA ports a lot so its not like I'm happy with any old dross that has the DKC name on it.

[killer kirby]

 

 

A prime example of this is what I said when it first came out and what tapedeck said the other day and that is Cranky Kong. That character was funny as hell back in the originals, with witty lines and his constant nagging. Retro have made him into some form of living statue in this game, they may aswell have put in some other random pig to do his job.

Stop giving me Cranky Kong as one example, what else? He just rants whoopdie do, the older Donkey Kong games don't have a soul because all you do is walk straight and nothing happens with the environment, it's just...there.

 

I don't see what the problem is? The game is good, i've said many times it is, yet alot of you won't be happy until some of us bend over and say it's better than Rare's DKC games, but in our opinion it's simply not.

 

Yet if we praise the game higher and say it's better then the SNES one of you, rez, darksnowman etc etc talk about 'OMG it has no soul your completely wrong'

 

 

Were we wearing them when we replayed the trilogy in 2010?

 

Yep, it's like how an old family goes through an old family book, they remember the days of young and feel like it was yesterday when all of those things happened. and call it the best days of their lives.

 

Its untangible what gives a game its soul, its heart. Its not how action packed it is Killer Kirby, but yes Burny, the little details do help, but its still more than that.

 

So now it's heart!? uuuuuuuuuuuuuuug, next thing your going to say is penis, or has reZ said that in this thread already? I can imagine him saying DKC, 2 and 3 had that Rare penis touch, but the new one lacks it.

 

Ain't going to go around in a circle again, but perhaps if one of you guys (Probably the only one who can explain it Tapedeck) outside of Cranky, where this 'soul' is in the original 3.

[darksnowman]

So now it's heart!? uuuuuuuuuuuuuuug, next thing your going to say is penis, or has reZ said that in this thread already? I can imagine him saying DKC, 2 and 3 had that Rare penis touch, but the new one lacks it.

 

DKC had Candy Kong and thus boobs.

 

[ReZourceman]

Yep, it's like how an old family goes through an old family book, they remember the days of young and feel like it was yesterday when all of those things happened. and call it the best days of their lives.

 

Its not even remotely like that.

[killer kirby]

DKC had Candy Kong and thus boobs.

 

 

And then it went all Wrinkly.

[Burny]

So now it's heart!? uuuuuuuuuuuuuuug, next thing your going to say is penis, or has reZ said that in this thread already? I can imagine him saying DKC, 2 and 3 had that Rare penis touch, but the new one lacks it.

He used the words interchangeably, so its fine.

 

But due to our love for the original trilogy we've been hankering for a DKC 4 for years. No one wants Returns to be a glorious comeback for DK more than us guys that see its faults.

And that's were this discussion ensues. There are differences between the games. Your memories of the original trilogy make you call them faults, but the wildly different reception of these differences are a clear indication, that these aren't faults per se.

[Hero-of-Time]

Ain't going to go around in a circle again, but perhaps if one of you guys (Probably the only one who can explain it Tapedeck) outside of Cranky, where this 'soul' is in the original 3.

 

I've already explained why I think the original games have soul/heart/atmosphere, whatever you want to call it. I listed things like Kremlings, music, characters, levels, controls numerous times in this thread but as always it appears that i'm wrong and killer kirby is right.

 

I LOVE the original games and not any person on here, on another fourm or in real life is gonna change my mind that DCKR is the best of the Country games because IMO it's not.

 

And that's were this discussion ensues. There are differences between the games. Your memories of the original trilogy make you call them faults, but the wildly different reception of these differences are a clear indication, that these aren't faults per se.

 

I think we can all agree that having the waggle for the roll is a major fault.

[Burny]

I think we can all agree that having the waggle for the roll is a major fault.

 

Without having played the game I won't agree or disagree. That said, if the "waggle" is comparable to the "waggle" in NSMBW, then I doubt this is a "major" fault. There is potential for false recognition when the WiiMote is flicked, so it may be an issue, but if time attacks on youtube are an indication, than it's definitely not "major". Those runs are absolutely precise and the posters don't seem to whine about how "waggle" made their life difficult, although their constantly using it in order to achieve those times.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Burny

[killer kirby]

I've already explained why I think the original games have soul/heart/atmosphere, whatever you want to call it. I listed things like Kremlings, music, characters, levels, controls numerous times in this thread but as always it appears that i'm wrong and killer kirby is right.

I have never said I am right, nor are you wrong, it's all about taste, and having arguments like these are good because having everyone say 'Donkey Kong Country Returns is not better then the original' is boring and dull.

 

I LOVE the original games and not any person on here, on another fourm or in real life is gonna change my mind that DCKR is the best of the Country games because IMO it's not.

And I love the newest one more then the others, but if anything I am more defending the new path they are taking with the series, I love the tiki's more then the awful designs of the Kremlings. Plus I was just questioning and noticing how the word soul has a meaning too all of us in different ways.

 

 

 

I think we can all agree that having the waggle for the roll is a major fault.

I looooooooooooooooooove it give me moar waggle and never have classic control as an option

[ReZourceman]

Without having played the game I won't agree or disagree.

 

Why start now?

[MindFreak]

I don't particularly hate the waggling as it actually works pretty well, and when it doesn't work it's because you are not moving DK enough - he hasn't gained momentum. That has killed me a fair few times but I wouldn't blame that on the waggle. On time trials, though, after long session I found that my wrists hurt because of it.

 

However, I don't understand why they have left the B-button untouched outside menues. Is it too hard to first press B and then A to jump?

 

I fully agree on the run-thing, though; there is no need for a run-button when using analogue stick and that is the proper use of it. Besides, I have not even once caught myself walking in the game so I don't think it would be a catastrophe (to me at least) to assign running to the d-pad alone.

[ReZourceman]

On time trials, though, after long session I found that my wrists hurt because of it.

 

Take a break of at least a few minutes before going again.....:p

[RedShell]

This debate is most amusing.

I think DKCR is a fantastic game and I truly admire what Retro Studios have achieved (especially as it's a first attempt at the genre), but I can also see where the old school DKC crew are coming from, I'm the same when it comes to Mario Kart; "the new games don't have coins, bloody blue shell, bikes WTF?!" etc...

 

It's just one of those things, there is no wrong or right.

 

Now, everyone just go and play whichever DKC game you like best.

[tapedeck]

IMO here is some form of 'soul' explanation:

 

Enemies:

 

It seem like they ran out of design or rushed their insertion as things are kept very simple.

We have some utterly boring enemies here at times. Heck, even SMB has some boring enemies but I'm not fussed too much about that (more on that later). But what set DK apart was the variety of the enemies and the character they had. (End credit showcase for proofs and how DKC2 ran with this dressing them up making it self parodying).

Half of the enemies had a personality and quality animation alongside them. Here the enemies are seemingly peripheral. From Klaptrap to Cat 'o nine tails the 'supporting cast' was just as important as the main Kong family in the original trilogy.

Here the Tikis seem a little boring in comparison and thus I didn't care about who (or what) I was leaping about on. Anyway, ala the Mario comparison - that enabled the platform design a chance to not become confusing. Let's face it, the environments are the star of the show here. (Which leads me to my next point...)

 

Atmosphere. The original game may not have had Mario (or DKCR) level design but it had a foreboding, unique atmosphere. An almost tangible quality. Remember the ocean levels, tree-top levels, snow levels where the blizzard slowly came in? Toxic levels, urban factory settings? They just seemed more 'real' in DKC which may have to do with the new cartoony design. The sound design echoed the levels such as the 'drip-drip' cave effects/Monkey chant/Ice SFX etc... Here it just didn't seem to evoke as pure an atmosphere. The music was a real let down too as I expected more classic remixes. But, really: DKC 1-3 was astounding audibly.

 

These graphics, design choices and musical factors usually equal 'soul' to me. I also find this is also echoed in...

 

Confidence/delivery:

Good games seem sure of themselves, they are understandable and make sense within their own defined reality. (Even the realities that seem, on paper, mental!)

Rare's DK universe had (at the time) production values off the scale and everything seemed purposely placed and assured. Here we have rocket levels and mine cart levels that seem in place for old-skool difficulty only. And the characters (even Diddy) are completely under-used. Heck, DK could have been the only Kong in this game. Diddy's jet pack - whilst offering sense in a gameplay setting seems silly here. It kind of reduces both characters worth. Why does the athletic, awesome Diddy need a jetpack? Why does DK need a companion with a jetpack? Just felt...forced? In DKC2 at least the flying character Dixie enabled optional routes for completion of levels/bonus levels.

On the N64 in 3D space when Rare were on crack the jetpack was dodgy. Here it's dodgy again. And Cranky doesn't talk (as mentioned) which feels like fan-service gone wrong and only Rambi is utilised (Squawks is pointless too, no?). Why no Enguarde? Why no Winky? They were as important as the Kongs and gave variation to the game. Something I love about the original and where that 'confidence' of gameplay styles comes from.

 

As I said earlier, this is a top platformer with ideas to die for and highly artistic, stylised graphics that brings vibrancy and life to the 2D genre in a cohesive and impressive way. But yeah, to me, DKR is just 'too' different which ensures I'll be getting my DKC fix from 1-3 for many more years to come and I doubt if this will be a long-term game (ala the originals).

Edited January 5, 2011 by tapedeck

[Kav]

I think this is the first time I do not whole-heartedly agree with Tapedeck.

 

I never felt that the Kremlings, the animal buddies or the rest of the Kongs to be important to the games. DKC 1 was my favourite of 1-3 because you played as DK himself, losing him and introducing annoying characters was the biggest loss of soul the series experienced in my view.

 

I never cared for any of the Kremlings, I always thought that the Beaver was the best enemy simply because he walked funny and sometimes came at you inside big-ass wooden wheels... they were hilarious!

 

The animals were great, don't get me wrong, but I always preferred getting around as either DK or Diddy. Which is where I do start to agree with some of the points... not being able to play as Diddy in single player is disheartening, even though I was always a DK player, but being able to switch would've been great to have kept.

Also, the originals did have a little bit more atmosphere to them which I do miss a bit, but I wouldn't say that it then lacks soul as the levels themselves lend soul to the experience!

 

It's the fact that the level design is so big a factor in the fun of the game that it trumps all these minor disappointments and in my eyes this the game really shines when I compare it to the originals.

 

This is my favourite DKC without a shadow of a doubt!

[ReZourceman]

IMO here is some form of 'soul' explanation:

 

Enemies:

 

It seem like they ran out of design or rushed their insertion as things are kept very simple.

We have some utterly boring enemies here at times. Heck, even SMB has some boring enemies but I'm not fussed too much about that (more on that later). But what set DK apart was the variety of the enemies and the character they had. (End credit showcase for proofs and how DKC2 ran with this dressing them up making it self parodying).

Half of the enemies had a personality and quality animation alongside them. Here the enemies are seemingly peripheral. From Klaptrap to Cat 'o nine tails the 'supporting cast' was just as important as the main Kong family in the original trilogy.

Here the Tikis seem a little boring in comparison and thus I didn't care about who (or what) I was leaping about on. Anyway, ala the Mario comparison - that enabled the platform design a chance to not become confusing. Let's face it, the environments are the star of the show here. (Which leads me to my next point...)

 

Atmosphere. The original game may not have had Mario (or DKCR) level design but it had a foreboding, unique atmosphere. An almost tangible quality. Remember the ocean levels, tree-top levels, snow levels where the blizzard slowly came in? Toxic levels, urban factory settings? They just seemed more 'real' in DKC which may have to do with the new cartoony design. The sound design echoed the levels such as the 'drip-drip' cave effects/Monkey chant/Ice SFX etc... Here it just didn't seem to evoke as pure an atmosphere. The music was a real let down too as I expected more classic remixes. But, really: DKC 1-3 was astounding audibly.

 

These graphics, design choices and musical factors usually equal 'soul' to me. I also find this is also echoed in...

 

Confidence/delivery:

Good games seem sure of themselves, they are understandable and make sense within their own defined reality. (Even the realities that seem, on paper, mental!)

Rare's DK universe had (at the time) production values off the scale and everything seemed purposely placed and assured. Here we have rocket levels and mine cart levels that seem in place for old-skool difficulty only. And the characters (even Diddy) are completely under-used. Heck, DK could have been the only Kong in this game. Diddy's jet pack - whilst offering sense in a gameplay setting seems silly here. It kind of reduces both characters worth. Why does the athletic, awesome Diddy need a jetpack? Why does DK need a companion with a jetpack? Just felt...forced? In DKC2 at least the flying character Dixie enabled optional routes for completion of levels/bonus levels.

On the N64 in 3D space when Rare were on crack the jetpack was dodgy. Here it's dodgy again. And Cranky doesn't talk (as mentioned) which feels like fan-service gone wrong and only Rambi is utilised (Squawks is pointless too, no?). Why no Enguarde? Why no Winky? They were as important as the Kongs and gave variation to the game. Something I love about the original and where that 'confidence' of gameplay styles comes from.

 

As I said earlier, this is a top platformer with ideas to die for and highly artistic, stylised graphics that brings vibrancy and life to the 2D genre in a cohesive and impressive way. But yeah, to me, DKR is just 'too' different which ensures I'll be getting my DKC fix from 1-3 for many more years to come and I doubt if this will be a long-term game (ala the originals).

 

Such a fantastic post. Everyone arguing against it/the people with sense can bite it. :p